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On July 16 2013 20:37 A Wild Sosd wrote:I'm watching WCS KR right now and I just watched supernova do a proxy reaper into proxy widowmine build in TvP. Anyone have the BO for this? Wasn't paying enough attention to see when he built stuff 
Just looked for this, looks like:
10 depot and send scv for proxy
11 proxy rax
11 gas
resume scvs
reaper
rax (2) in base -> marines
2 reapers and send rax home
~19 proxy factory
bunker in main
VOD (match starts ~8 min:
http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs2/vod/80743
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are there any unorthodox compositions that can work in late game tvp? I have hard time splitting my bio, EMPing, engaging properly with my vikings vs collo/ht/chargelot/stalker compositions.
What should I do when I'm really far ahead and I don't want to lose the game by having my bio army wiped? I lost so many TvPs these days in that fashion it's depressing.
I usually have 3 vikings per collo, ~8 medivacs, as many rauders as toss have stalkers, few ghosts with cloak and rest rines/hellbats. I even sacrifice scv's and build OC's to have higher army supply and still lose, coz I tend to just 1a after EMPing his HTs then die.
I'm gold/plat with my T (off racing).
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On July 16 2013 21:42 LighTLasH wrote:
Hey guys, i got a question concerning TvP:
What do you do against 2 Base upgraded Chargelot Archon attacks?
Can I acutally try to defend natural and 3rd or is that bound to fail?
Teching to ghosts so quickly doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
I guess I need a lot of bunkers. I also consider counter dropping with like 2 medivacs to delay him, but that might be difficult cause he can just feedback and warp a lot of units at home.
Any tipps or VoDs about this situation?
Edit:
Note also that I just had 1 reactor and 4 tech labs on my barracks. Might help building 2 reactors I guess?
High Diamond T here.
The only thing (at least from my perspective) which makes you survive a 2-2 zealot archon 2-base all-in is a wall at you natural and bunkers behind that. On a map like Akilon Wastes, you can land your third and collapse the rocks in front.
I don't think getting ghosts so early is a viable option, but there might be other opinions on that.
Also, in PvT, I prefer having having 2 reactors and 1 techlab as a starting point when playing the 3rax openings (right now I tend to play the Demuslim reaper expo with fast +1 and 2 barracks). After scouting collossi, I lift one of the reactored rax and add a techlab and use the free reactor for an additional starport. But if the P is going zealot templar, I keep the two reactored rax.
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High plat terran here,
My question is when is a good time to start adding ghosts in tvp? Should i add them when i see templar or archons or just mix them in after i get 3 fully saturated bases.
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On July 16 2013 23:41 gondolin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 14:23 pali_ wrote:/EDIT: examplehe makes a ton of lings, controls the map, I cant secure my third, he then drones like crazy, my push is too late. any comments appreciated!!  srsly, lately, I am a Zerg's bitch. it's starting to piss me off and I don't really get it. I mean, OK, in this game, I lose 2-3 hellions, but the Zerg is pressuring me constantly. I really feel like we have switched roles. I feel like me as a T should pressure him constantly while he is trying to play greedy. But this game is exactly the other way round. I am trying to play greedy and he is not letting me. Please watch and comment!! ) I don't like the bunker so soon, you don't need it before speed since you have reapers, and it delays your fact and 3th cc. Also your hellions are too late because your reactor is 20 seconds late, which is pretty big. Your starport is way too soon, when you switch your rax and factory, you should build a tech lab on the rax and search stim. Then normaly you add 2 ebays for quick upgrades, and after that 2 raxes and starport, and 2 raxes more soon after. (If you are afraid of an all in, you can add the 2 raxes before the 2 ebays) At 7:20, you have 25 scv vs his 25 drones, and your third oc is done while he is just beginning his thid hatch. And you even lost 4 scvs, which would not have happened if your hellions were on time. This is a huge lead! At 9:45, you float 750 minerals and are still on 1 rax! You really lack production! Note that you are still ahead on worker counts however. Also you have too many scvs at your natural and not enough at your main. Also at this time you should definitively begin to float the cc to the third. (Usually when there is no pressure, I do it sooner, like at 8:30-9:00, that's why it is important to retain your hellions) You have a lot of idles scvs in your main. At 12:00 his big attack work so well because you were so late adding production. You are essentially dead after that, I don't know how he managed to stack up 6000 minerals while staying at 130 supply, but you could have come back if you had added enough tech lab raxes in time. I like to think of TvZ in terms of tempo: know when to pressure, know when to defend. At 8:00 you are really vulnerable because this is when you start adding your production and will soon be taking your third, and they have speed. You see that pros keep pressuring the zergs, but its because they are playing way more greedily than your opponent. If he produces 20/30 lings, thats 10/15 drones less, if you defend well with your hellions, you already did the damage needed! So it is perfectly ok to defend during this time! As I note, at 9:45 you have more workers than him, adding the 3 oc and you had a huge eco lead. There are also other times when you should be in the mindset of defending rather than trying to be agressive (apart from all ins): - when they stay on 3 bases to do a big muta/ling/bane bust - when they have their first ultras, where you want them to go against your concave, and start droping/harassing everywhere rather than going for frontal assaults until you have enough marauders.
Thanks for your comments, that is very useful input!
I saw the early starport in this build on Dragon's stream, he just uses it to get an early viking to deny overlord spread. This isn't the highest priority ofc, but still quite useful I think.
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On July 16 2013 17:39 A Wild Sosd wrote:
The only reason I like TvP is because the feeling you get when you dodge all his storms and crush his army is the best thing ever.
I am not familiar with this feeling. I only lose.
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On July 17 2013 08:14 Roija wrote:
High plat terran here,
My question is when is a good time to start adding ghosts in tvp? Should i add them when i see templar or archons or just mix them in after i get 3 fully saturated bases.
I think 16 min is where you HAVE to have a ghost academy. I would say build a ghost academy the second you see templar. Regardless of the compositions when you scout a templar you can safely invest in ghosts.
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Typically if protoss is going for 2 collosi than switching over to templars they will have storm done by 15:30 or so.
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On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required.
Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related.
Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this?
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On July 14 2013 17:50 Danglars wrote:I consistently lose the near-max army Colo/HT/Archon/Chargelot fights due to building too few medivacs (and losing them too much), not having enough EMPs for Archons, and generally tilting my army comp too far one way or the other. Generally I lose a big engagement, drop to 120 supply, and wonder if getting more than 8 ghosts is warranted after that? Enough ghosts to EMP every Archon is unfruitful ... and well ... I've had bad experiences going against Archon chargelots even killing every colossus and EMPing near every high templar. I struggled with this kind of fighting in many engagements in a game recently. Danglars vs Kira (TvP) stretched for an hour. One big engagement I screwed up right clicking, others I just didn't organize my ghosts and vikings in time. I raged at doing decent EMPs and Colo engagments but never a victory. Still enough units left over to stop a second engagements. Did two rage-induced fruitless charges and forgot medivacs ... lost ghosts ... but still felt like future engagements would still not go my way EMPing the archons as well as the HTs. Anyways, that game I managed to out-scrap him in the end but it was shoddy play. Ideas on working more ghosts in lategame low-eco (2mining to 2mining) when he has matched upgrades and I don't have enough economy to get both the high ghost count recommended and enough bio to destroy the chagelots? Kiting over widow mines with scanned obs any lategame substitute for archon draining?
If your ghost count is dangerously low, there is one tactic that might save you - EMP drops. this is how I keep my handful of ghosts alive going into the lategame. before I move out, I will cast EMP on 2 medivacs --> hotkey ghost #1 /w medivac #2 on Q --> hotkey ghost #2 /w medivac #2 on W. I fly them on either side of my main army to assassinate any templars that might be waiting to flank with storms. to protect them from feedback, I put my medivac and ghost in the same control group. I can simply press R + left click the medivac, re-tap Q or W, cast EMP, then right click the medivac before another templar can get in range for feedback. It is also a great way to EMP clumped zealots without losing ghosts in the process. I try to keep my ground squad of ghosts well back and only use them for snipes. the only way you can safely blanket maxed toss armies with EMP is if you have cloaking field and destroy all of his observers. without cloak, colossus usually turn your ghosts to dust before they can get in range.
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On July 17 2013 10:21 halpimcat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required. Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related. Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this?
Generally in TvT you can only play marine/tank vs marine/tank or bio. Vs mech its better to play as mech or pure bio with a handful of tanks defending your bases.
Though I think there will be a resurgence in the marine/tank style as more Terran switch back to bio following hellbat need. Though I think the number of mech players will be strong.
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On July 17 2013 20:39 Marathi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 10:21 halpimcat wrote:On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required. Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related. Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this? Generally in TvT you can only play marine/tank vs marine/tank or bio. Vs mech its better to play as mech or pure bio with a handful of tanks defending your bases. Though I think there will be a resurgence in the marine/tank style as more Terran switch back to bio following hellbat need. Though I think the number of mech players will be strong.
Mech still better then bio. Buildorders changed thx to patch, so less hellbatdrops in the start and more other harras, but in general it will be mech eventually.
Ryung vs major yesterday WCS NA was nice example. Ruyng going biotank against majors mech in first series, loses 2-0. Last series ruyng goes mech aswell and wins 2-0 and qualifies for ro16 wcs na.
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In TvT even in WOL it has always worked in general Marine/Tank > Bio > Mech > Marine/Tank. You have to take this with a grain of salt because it does depend on skill level and ofcourse map advantages and knowing where the strengths and weaknesses are for each Style of play. You can watch Demuslim ( AMAZING FOreign player) though and he will go Marine / Tank just about everygame and still win against Mech - Bio - or Marine/Tank. So the end of the day its best to pick one style learn where the weaknesses are and how to mitigate them against each style and ofcourse where to find your advantages.
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I was watching tvp yesterday with FORGG versus GRUBBY.
Forgg was doing a really intersting open, that i haven't really seen before going 1raxfe into 3cc into 3xtra rax.
I wondered if i anyone actually caught the build order, as i wanted to try it out?
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On July 17 2013 21:54 Emporium wrote:
I was watching tvp yesterday with FORGG versus GRUBBY.
Forgg was doing a really intersting open, that i haven't really seen before going 1raxfe into 3cc into 3xtra rax.
I wondered if i anyone actually caught the build order, as i wanted to try it out?
3cc is risky because if he scouts the early 3cc's u give them a big timingwindow to punish u. mothershipcore gives scouting ability early. Game 2 was a nice example. Grubby scouted the early 3rd cc and punished forgg for it. Early 3cc is really risky when scouted (which it almost allways is) because it gives the toss a big window to win with a simple amove or delay ur tech which also means ur probably gonna die. I would not advice it. I liked the cc first thedwf (blueposter here more) did in qualifiers more, which is also greedy defensive and therefore more doable.
14 cc
3 rax
1 bunker
2 gas + engbay
2 turrets
etcetctectetc to MMM into more rax and 3rd base
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On July 17 2013 21:07 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 20:39 Marathi wrote:On July 17 2013 10:21 halpimcat wrote:On July 16 2013 14:19 halpimcat wrote:
Are there any popular bio-mech TvT builds that aren't more than a few months old? I've been playing with mech around 70% for all matchups but have gotten the itch for good ol' marine-tank again. Timing also couldn't be any better with the hellbat nerf. Preferably something macro-oriented, but not required. Re-iterating my question for visibility and because my next question is related. Is marine-tank really viable anymore in TvT? On every forum I see people talk about the hellbat - even post-nerf - making marine-tank unreliable as they break siege lines so much easier. That you basically have to be much better than a meching opponent to win. I'm not convinced but haven't tried it in a while, is there any truth to this? Generally in TvT you can only play marine/tank vs marine/tank or bio. Vs mech its better to play as mech or pure bio with a handful of tanks defending your bases. Though I think there will be a resurgence in the marine/tank style as more Terran switch back to bio following hellbat need. Though I think the number of mech players will be strong. Mech still better then bio. Buildorders changed thx to patch, so less hellbatdrops in the start and more other harras, but in general it will be mech eventually. Ryung vs major yesterday WCS NA was nice example. Ruyng going biotank against majors mech in first series, loses 2-0. Last series ruyng goes mech aswell and wins 2-0 and qualifies for ro16 wcs na.
LOL you mean "perfectly played mech beats perfectly played bio" which has been the same since WoL.
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So with the new cheaper cloak think the good ol 1-1-1 tank banshee all in would be stronger now? 200 gas less required to pull it off than in wol and tanks out range nexus cannon, could be tough getting up bunkers in good positions on certain maps though.
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http://ggtracker.com/matches/3705052
Get a perfect scout of protoss all in. Defend the all in without losing anything. Ransack his base destroying all his production multiple times and simultaneously taking out 3 nexus's..................lose to the deathball. Story of my life.
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EPT
