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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On June 28 2013 12:28 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 10:27 geokilla wrote:On June 28 2013 09:59 U_G_L_Y wrote:On June 27 2013 14:13 Whatson wrote:
Well if you're having so much trouble with reaper openings vP maybe you should change your BO.
Also, explain what you mean when you say that +1 armor is useless vP Sorry, I meant that I don't like reaper openings because really the only build that is safe from fast oracles after a reaper opening is DeMuslim's +1+1, and I really really hate that build for a variety of reasons explained above, so I am trying to learn CC first. The problem I am having is implementing Jazzman's scouting guide, because you can't know if they have a third pylon with CC first if they try to deny scouting, since a MSC and stalker kill and SCV before it can see anything when it returns at 5 mins. +1 attack gives your marines 18% more DPS. +1 armor reduces stalker damage by 10% on marines and 12% from zealots. In WOL, I preferred to be very marine heavy (like 2 marauders MAX since they receive much less benefit from upgrades) with my 10 minute push for this reason. It feels like your chance at doing any damage or punishing greed are significantly reduced with Mr. Baker's +1+1 build. Reactor expand after your first Reaper. Then when you got the gas, build a Factory, and Engineering Bay. One of them comes first, and I believe it's the Engineering Bay. Then build a missile turret in your mineral line, and build one Widow Mine. Now you're safe! That is exactly the build I was just saying that I really really hate...
1. Only build the turret if stargate or dt's are confirmed. Else invest that money in an extra rax. Then u will have the standard setup of 3 rax / 1 fac / 1 starport /1 e.bay with the benefit your 10 minute push is +1+1 instead of just +1. Its a very versatile and save buildorder against darkshrine and stargateplay because the turret only costs 20 seconds to build and a scan is 12.3 seconds. So only 1 scan needed against dt's. which will mean a dt only has 7.7 seconds to do damage to your economy (maybe 1 or 2 scv's will die, that isnt much). Just make sure u build the ebay's and the techlab on rax in range of a potential turret, no research will be lost.
2. The buildorder does give u more options to harras a bit earlier thx to the +1 then to jut wait until the standard 2base 10 minute medivacpush. It isnt the build that makes punishing greed harder, it is the nexuscannon (range and hitpoints). I believe that because of the harras potential and nexuscannon from the protos,the +1/+1 demu build is best for most lowerleague terrans because its a very reactive build and it doesnt require an APM above 50 to preform. There isnt much protos can do to hurt your economy early. So long as u scout properly and react accordingly.
3. The early harraspotential with +1 is nice. In wol most peeps didnt do early harras before 10 minutes (except the 2rax opening that mkp did). It hits when the protos player has just a couple of troops and if executed well enough, can really damage the protosplayer or atleast bait 1 nexuscannon which is very usefull for your medivacpush later in the game.
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TvZ
I have a hard time getting to the point where I am constantly rallying marine/mine onto the edge of z creep and trading. I usually will push out and get surrounded or take a huge fight of marine mine vs ling bane and either lose in win right there (usually I lose said big fight) but if I can get to where I'm rallying my splits and mine positioning gets much better - I just don't know how to get there if the z engages when I first move out. tips?
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Does anyone know why most korean pros now rally to a supply depot now? I've seen a lot of that recently and was wondering if there is a particular reason
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On June 29 2013 05:22 crbox wrote:
Does anyone know why most korean pros now rally to a supply depot now? I've seen a lot of that recently and was wondering if there is a particular reason
what do you mean?
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On June 29 2013 05:22 crbox wrote:
Does anyone know why most korean pros now rally to a supply depot now? I've seen a lot of that recently and was wondering if there is a particular reason
I've not seen this, is it a forward depot, sort of like a reinforcement pylon for Protoss?
The only reason I could imagine is so they could bind it and bounce it to quickly and grab all their reinforcements. But most Koreans are quite good at keeping their rally points to where the action is taking place.
Do you have an example.
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example : Select barracks right click on a "forward" supply depot. Dunno why so many koreans do it I'm just curious is it because someone good started doing it or is there a legitimate reason behind this.
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Innovation does it a lot. He doesn't bind it, he has a camera hotkey hovering over it. When he has a bunker, he rallies to that :D
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On June 29 2013 05:33 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 05:22 crbox wrote:
Does anyone know why most korean pros now rally to a supply depot now? I've seen a lot of that recently and was wondering if there is a particular reason what do you mean?
Ganzi was doing it on his stream today. http://www.twitch.tv/ganzi/b/423005069?t=3h11m12s
He takes an scv, makes a depot at the bottom of his ramp, and rallies to it.
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On June 27 2013 20:29 Marathi wrote:I guess skipping cloak is a good idea vs double gas openings. As I switch to Vikings after the first two banshees. I have thought about switching to the mine marine drop > cloakshees > marine tank Viking allin. But like I said I still do love the 1/1/1 and until I begin to lose a lot with it I will probably stick with it. TheDwf any advice on my original post? 
Cloak is useful against Hellbat openings since you can force Turrets at his mineral lines, then start attacking his exposed reactor(s). For your question, just charge as soon as possible leading with a few Marines to soak Mine or Tank damage. You can't afford to wait if he's building Tanks. By the way, the build order is second gas after fact (rax gas fact gas port lab), not the contrary.
On June 28 2013 06:46 KingofGods wrote:
I see pros have their average unspent income below 600, some even below 500. Yes certain games they will have like 1200 but that's not the average. Maybe I'm just playing more passive then them? Honestly I don't think my macro is that bad. And on GGTracker (supposedly it's more accurate) it does usually show my average unspent resources as being below 700.
Doesn't unspent gas also contribute to higher unspent resources? When I started paying more attention I noticed it was almost always my gas count that was high so I started taking less gas geysers.
Yes, it does. You should not solely focus on "unspent resources," spending quotient is a better measure. Unfortunately, it cannot be manually calculated anymore since Blizzard removed the income information from the score screen, but from memory GGTracker still does it. Bear in mind that certain games will inevitably lower your SQ, such as when you're max or when you're playing 4M and banking gas, for example.
On June 28 2013 08:51 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
What do people in this thread think about the viability of just a few tanks in lategame TvP, like around 3-4 or so?
Waste of resources and, above all, supply. They're too frail, Protoss could simply fake a charge to snipe them (particularly with Colossi) before retreating at little cost, or simply engage you capitalizing on the fact you have 9-12 supply tied up in suboptimal stuff. It also doesn't work if they have Tempests, obviously.
On June 28 2013 09:59 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Sorry, I meant that I don't like reaper openings because really the only build that is safe from fast oracles after a reaper opening is DeMuslim's +1+1, and I really really hate that build for a variety of reasons explained above, so I am trying to learn CC first.
You can play 1-1-1 (Marines/Mines/Medivac pressure, or Marines/Tanks defensively against all-ins; Hellbat drops after expand are only playable if he expands himself) after Reaper reactor expand, you will simply need a bunk in your mineral line against 3'25 proxy Stargates (easily recognizable with a SCV scout).
It feels like your chance at doing any damage or punishing greed are significantly reduced with Mr. Baker's +1+1 build.
Medivac pushes aren't particularly aimed at dealing direct damage, and at any rate HotS has buried this possibility if Protoss is playing standard and not behind from the openings.
On June 28 2013 10:05 U_G_L_Y wrote:
I see this MSC+1 or 2 stalker push all the time as a reaction to CC first, with an expansion behind it. Or sometimes it is blink. Or warp prism 4 gate. If I don't get a scout at 5 minutes, I don't have time to react.
If he scouted your CC first and you don't see an expand at 3'45, he's either all-inning or pressuring into expand (Oracle expand, zeal/stalks/MSC poke into expand, DT expand). Hide your scouting SCV somewhere and check again the natural a bit later.
On June 29 2013 05:22 crbox wrote:
Does anyone know why most korean pros now rally to a supply depot now? I've seen a lot of that recently and was wondering if there is a particular reason
Probably to switch the camera swiftly on their produced troops.
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Pressing a number hotkey is easier than pressing f hotkey
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On June 29 2013 07:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 20:29 Marathi wrote:I guess skipping cloak is a good idea vs double gas openings. As I switch to Vikings after the first two banshees. I have thought about switching to the mine marine drop > cloakshees > marine tank Viking allin. But like I said I still do love the 1/1/1 and until I begin to lose a lot with it I will probably stick with it. TheDwf any advice on my original post? Cloak is useful against Hellbat openings since you can force Turrets at his mineral lines, then start attacking his exposed reactor(s). For your question, just charge as soon as possible leading with a few Marines to soak Mine or Tank damage. You can't afford to wait if he's building Tanks. By the way, the build order is second gas after fact (rax gas fact gas port lab), not the contrary.
Yes I have that written down
13 ref
16 OC
16 Fact
16 Supply
19 ref
not sure why I said 2nd gas before fact :///
Ok thanks for the tips, just suicide a few marines then bully my way through - and keep getting cloak
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If I'm going 15gas reactor CC into 3rax starport, what's a good time to put down my 3rd CC and ebays?
I've been going mostly by feel thus far but I want to change that.
Also, what's a good time to start making vikings? Normally I'll drop and see a robo bay and start, but that seems late.
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1st ebay should be put down when factory goes up if you aren't going fast ebay. Start viking production after 4 medivacs and make certain that you keep your medivacs alive while dropping. A lot of time I just drop on the outskirts of my opponents base just to scout and army composition without risking losing anything.
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I'll post a replay later but anyone have any idea on how to beat a stargate opening that involves lots of phoenix + collossi and they transition into just mass air? Haven't been playing for awhile but even w/ 3 reactor'd stargate, I didn't have enough units after the Templar stormed my face in and zealot reinforcements
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On June 29 2013 15:42 Chaggi wrote:
I'll post a replay later but anyone have any idea on how to beat a stargate opening that involves lots of phoenix + collossi and they transition into just mass air? Haven't been playing for awhile but even w/ 3 reactor'd stargate, I didn't have enough units after the Templar stormed my face in and zealot reinforcements
Read op.
Q. How to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi?
On August 25 2012 15:50 Ver wrote:
Bio/ghost/double starport viking. Don't bother dropping, just play defensively til 200/200. In battle you need to emp the phoenixes and have the vikings focus fire the colossus. You will win the big battles very easy as he'll have so much wasted gas in phoenixes that don't do anything. Hence why nobody does this anymore.
On September 04 2012 06:50 Ver wrote:
The way to beat colo/phoenix 100% reliably is turtling until maxed on 3 base with double port viking and getting ghosts. You can get 2/2 and double port viking, those are not mutually exclusive. Don't bother dropping: it's far too risky and little reward, unless he tries some early 2 base allin and you know where his phoenix are.
In that 200 battle you just emp their phoenix and focus fire colo with vikings and they just wasted tons of money for nothing, meaning you win very easily.
TheDwf wrote:
Yes, actually you overmake Vikings so you can ignore Phoenixes (don't waste shots on them, they're not the damage dealers in his army) and kill Colossi reasonably fast without losing all your Vikings to Phoenixes before they get the job done. Be sure to get air attack upgrades as well.
If you have enough Ghosts, try to hit Colossi too with EMP so you can divide your focus fire and kill 2 Colossi instead of one at the beginning of the fight when you still have enough Vikings.
Don't even try an all-ground approach, it's generally impossible to deal with 3+ Colossi without Vikings unless you badly outnumber him. Uncontested Colossi just deal way too much damage, you will lose like 10+ supply each time they attack and his Zealot wall won't even be down by the time most of your bio is reduced to ashes.
Needless to say, you need a second Starport to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi.
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On June 29 2013 01:31 S7EFEN wrote:
TvZ
I have a hard time getting to the point where I am constantly rallying marine/mine onto the edge of z creep and trading. I usually will push out and get surrounded or take a huge fight of marine mine vs ling bane and either lose in win right there (usually I lose said big fight) but if I can get to where I'm rallying my splits and mine positioning gets much better - I just don't know how to get there if the z engages when I first move out. tips?
We would need a replay to help you. It sounds like your build or scouting is not solid enough.
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I'm currently in Diamond and I'm curious if somebody can take a look at my play objectively and tell me what I'm doing wrong.
http://www.2shared.com/file/Ndr6qADJ/My_replays.html
I've been using this particular strategy every game, but I somehow feel like Diamond is a brick wall for it especially on maps without enough cliffs. I feel like if the map is good for it I could get to masters with it. On a good map, on a good day I beat a master or two, but otherwise it's pretty much impossible I feel.
I would very much appreciate it if somebody took a look at my play without dismissing it entirely.
http://www.2shared.com/file/Ndr6qADJ/My_replays.html
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On June 29 2013 08:50 Whatson wrote:
If I'm going 15gas reactor CC into 3rax starport, what's a good time to put down my 3rd CC and ebays?
I've been going mostly by feel thus far but I want to change that.
Also, what's a good time to start making vikings? Normally I'll drop and see a robo bay and start, but that seems late.
Do you go Marines/Mines/Medivac pressure before 3 rax Medivacs?
On June 29 2013 15:42 Chaggi wrote:
I'll post a replay later but anyone have any idea on how to beat a stargate opening that involves lots of phoenix + collossi and they transition into just mass air? Haven't been playing for awhile but even w/ 3 reactor'd stargate, I didn't have enough units after the Templar stormed my face in and zealot reinforcements
Most of what's in the OP still stands, but the "ignore Phoenixes" aspect is outdated and HotS has strengthened Phoenixes/Colossi, while it was not really viable in WoL. Check my last answer on the topic:
On June 18 2013 23:42 TheDwf wrote:I would say there are two approaches against Phoenixes/Colossi: a) kill him before critical mass, e. g. Illusion vs Macsed, Akilon Wastes, WCS America. Was probably not possible in your case, which leads us to: b) build mass Vikings on dual reactor port with a few Mines to set a trap against his Phoenixes when an engagement occurs. An example of such a trick can be found in Bogus vs Bong, Korhal Floating Island, SPL. And when I say "mass" Vikings, I do say mass. If he truly had 8-10 Colossi and at least 20 Phoenixes, you needed like 25-30 Vikings. No joke; if you have less you will simply get stomped (as you saw). If he has only or mostly Phoenixes as an anti-air (i. e. no/few stalks and no Archon/no Storm), just retreat your bio and let your Vikings kill everything (Phoenixes first, then Colossi). When the Colossus count is reduced to bearable numbers (i. e. 3-4 or less), you can unleash your bio.
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Anyone has the ryung tvz build in the last gstl?
He opens with hellbat drop and then everything looks the same as mvp hellbat marauder all in including stim timing, double reactor rax but he makes marines on tech lab rax instead and got a third and double ebay and transition into a normal bio mine style?
Personally I think this build is genius because mines and hellbats completely bypass the potential upgrade difference for lings and muta if hellbat drop didn't do enough damage and if there is a mass roach counter attack, he can scout early with the drops and also just contain the zerg with the drops while getting bunker and get marauders
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So I made it up to silver and was doing well, until I had a protoss player bring a "Ball of void rays" at me. In game I thought vikings and Thor's but it didn't work out for me. Every engagement was my destruction. Any better builds when they are building massive void rays and pretty much nothing else?
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EPT
