|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On June 27 2013 15:17 KingofGods wrote:
My goal this season has been to keep average unspent resources below 900. I am doing okay with that (average 928), but problems arise when I reach max, especially when meching tvt and I float a lot of resources. Any suggestions what I should do? I don't want to carelessly through away units just to keep my resources down. What I usually do is build non stop cc's but even that doesn't use up resources fast enough lol.
If you are maxed, and you think your opponent isn't yet, consider attacking. The longer you wait the more he will close the gap.
If attacking is for whatever reason not the thing to do, then you want to have more than 900 unspent resources to remake your army when it does happen. In the meantime make more OCs/PFs, considering sacking SCVs, make more production facilities, keep upgrading (for example building armor can be really useful if your opponent uses bio, also building range), and consider preparing for a BC switch.
|
On June 27 2013 11:27 DigitalEMP wrote:
Anyone use a Marine/Medivac/Tank style still?
In TvZ, you mean?
On June 27 2013 13:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
So, people keep saying to check for a third pylon, but many builds don't have one before a stalker/MSC pops.
Troll build by QXC, but I often see 2 gas, sometimes with 2 workers, sometimes with 3, and 2 pylons before I have to leave with a scouting SCV. If they used any chrono on units, you have to leave sooner. Sometimes they expand, sometimes they don't. Everyone keeps saying that I just need to scout better to hold all these bullshit Protoss all-ins, but if you don't open reaper, how can you know what he is doing without getting a lucky scan? And if you open reaper, how do you not die to proxy oracle or many other things without being as good as DeMuslim and can hold everything with 1 barracks and an engineering bay? (His is a really awkward bumpy build, even he gets supply blocked all the time with it because nothing lines up well, and +1 armor is worthless vs Protoss, IMO)
If they park a stalker/MSC in front of their natural at 4:30, you can't know, even if you hide an SCV perfectly and run it back in at 5 minutes because they can just snipe it. They could be proxy SG, DTs, double expo, immortal bust, delayed 4 gate... anything.
What am I missing?
MSC expands don't build a third pylon before Nexus indeed, but you will see the expansion with your SCV. If he first makes MSC + Stalker before expanding, the Reaper will see it. If you saw no third Pylon and there is no expand afterwards, you can know something is up. Don't play without a Reaper if you're not good at reading Protoss' builds, you will simply face too many issues. Handling proxy Oracles isn't particularly complicated, if a Pylon is missing and he's not expanding immediately (MSC expands build their Nexus at 3'45), first check the common proxy locations with your Reaper before heading towards Protoss' natural; you can double check with your scouting SCV too, then you make one Turret in your mineral line and one near your rax if necessary.
On June 27 2013 15:17 KingofGods wrote:
My goal this season has been to keep average unspent resources below 900. I am doing okay with that (average 928), but problems arise when I reach max, especially when meching tvt and I float a lot of resources. Any suggestions what I should do? I don't want to carelessly through away units just to keep my resources down. What I usually do is build non stop cc's but even that doesn't use up resources fast enough lol.
Beyond a certain income or in some circumstances you can't realistically keep your average unspent resources below the threshold you defined, so don't worry.
On June 27 2013 16:56 Danglars wrote:
I want to thank this thread for teaching this noob ass terran how to not panic and face players my skill level on an even footing TvZ. I went in to it with gold macro and clueless decision making (I think I saw this play on a stream once. Let's do it!!) and read this thread's suggestions about builds, engagements, and lategame. I stopped fearing ultralisk/ling/bling, I started preparing more for allins/attacks (still plenty of work to go, plenty of games to nail down) and started winning games by more than lucky drops. Thanks DWF for all the work you put in along with Ver (your SC1 learning guide is legit). Carry on Terrans.
Thanks for the support!
|
On June 27 2013 12:06 Frij wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 07:09 Marathi wrote:Ok guys, just lost a TvT which I think I lost purely on my positioning and the engagement. I do a 2/1/1 allin in TvT which I normally open with cloakshees, but because he scouted my starport I decided to go for vikings and combat shields hoping he would've wasted some minerals in turrets on his mineral line (but in this case he didn't even respond to the potential banshee - typical!). Usually whilst I am harassing with my banshees I build up marine/tank army then push for the game. But in this game he goes for a hellbat drop which I defend with minimal losses (I scout double gas and not many gas units, despite not seeing armory figured he was going hellbats) which I defend with pretty minimal losses, but he scouts my allin. The replay is here: http://drop.sc/346281Now for me I think the problem was where I sieged and how I didn't use my air dominance to my advantage. See images in spoiler + Show Spoiler +Where I initially sieged up, giving a big archway to the natural which probably would've been good vs zerg or protoss as they would've had to attack me down the ramp. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R7NFRrw.jpg) His second tank comes into play, which put a big hurting on my reinforcements and my siege line - poor viking positioning could've saved the tank nearest to my opponents. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pxuc9ec.jpg) Now, this is my proposed siege positioning with estimated tank range  - This way I could've cut any reinforcements off his main to nat ramp and killed some production and supply depots, as well as stopping him from setting his own siege line up on the high ground. Would this be a good place to siege? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qNBqxzE.jpg) I am only a bit anal about the engagements because I LOVE the 1/1/1 marine/tank allin. I still think cloak banshee openers are viable in HotS and I really want to get the 'art' of this allin down to a tee. So any advice would be fantastic Also another quick question, assuming everything goes plain sailing in BO which should hit first hellbat drop or cloakshee? Assuming both went 12rax/13gas. As I don't think this dudes build was the most efficient or he messed it up in some way as I nearly pulled my army away thinking the hellbat drop wasn't coming. From my own play in Plat, a cloak banshee will hit the hellbat players base about the same time he's loading up his vac. However, I've taken to doing banshee before cloak when I know hellbats are on the way simply because the hellbat build really sucks at shooting up and the extra few seconds are nice. I've also found a huge amount of synergy between 2 mine/4 marine drops into banshees in TvT (techlab onto port right after first Vac pops) simply because often times the mines will leave a few SCVs with 5 health that the marines weren't able to clean up, so banshee 1 shots them. It's very all-in-ish though as it's pretty hard to expo behind cloakshees, especially after first doing a mine drop.
I guess skipping cloak is a good idea vs double gas openings. As I switch to Vikings after the first two banshees.
I have thought about switching to the mine marine drop > cloakshees > marine tank Viking allin. But like I said I still do love the 1/1/1 and until I begin to lose a lot with it I will probably stick with it.
TheDwf any advice on my original post?
|
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3585449
Damn, played a really long TvP today that I ended up losing. Couldn't really understand how I could've won at any point. I sort of messed up my BO (I forgot to pull SCVs from gas). I tried to do a little fancy multi-prong drop play but he just shut it down pretty hard. I lost about 2-3 medivacs as well.. I can't seem to find a way to put pressure on toss, or maybe is Whirlwind very Protoss favored? Even when I sort of won engagements, warp-in was a little too much for me to deal with.
I think I still screwed up a majority of my engagements, but even before the large fights I felt like I already lost.
|
I see pros have their average unspent income below 600, some even below 500. Yes certain games they will have like 1200 but that's not the average. Maybe I'm just playing more passive then them? Honestly I don't think my macro is that bad. And on GGTracker (supposedly it's more accurate) it does usually show my average unspent resources as being below 700.
Doesn't unspent gas also contribute to higher unspent resources? When I started paying more attention I noticed it was almost always my gas count that was high so I started taking less gas geysers.
|
I've been playing around with phoenix builds and I've, rather than going for workers been going for production between cycles.
With 3 phoenix and an obs I can grab marines/marauders and medivacs between cycles and force turrets on both mineral lines as well as in the production if they don't want to spread their units, making my stargate more effective.
My question is, is this kind of harass more effective ? I feel like worker harass with phoenix vs T isn't good at all because even if you kill 10+ workers each worker is 'worth less' than with P or Z.
I've been opening 1 gate stargate expand oracle > robo > 3 phoenix and T's who take gas build multiple mines, thus allowing the phoenix to come in and lift them for free, then using the 3 phoenix to deny drops or hellbat drops in the midgame. When I offrace T though, it seems like I can generally just go kill a P who opens stargate with stim and 2-4 medivacs - is this the general consensus at the pro level?
|
What do people in this thread think about the viability of just a few tanks in lategame TvP, like around 3-4 or so? The reason why I want the tanks is because Terran (or perhaps it's just me) often seems to engage better when you have a pre-spread concave that would just decimate toss (hopefully) if they attacked into it, as you can worry about emp/stutter step as opposed to splitting and spreading during the engagement. I was thinking that tanks could force an engagement by perhaps sieging a base and slowly whittling it down while you stand near them, out of the protoss army range, waiting for them to attack into you or lose the base, or siege their army, so you slowly gain some ground, and can eventually threaten a base, take one of your own, etc. Is there a reason I'm missing as to why this wouldn't work?
|
Tempests are far better units at zoning and forcing engagements than tanks. Tempests also happen to be the exact counter to tanks.
|
On June 27 2013 14:13 Whatson wrote:
Well if you're having so much trouble with reaper openings vP maybe you should change your BO.
Also, explain what you mean when you say that +1 armor is useless vP
Sorry, I meant that I don't like reaper openings because really the only build that is safe from fast oracles after a reaper opening is DeMuslim's +1+1, and I really really hate that build for a variety of reasons explained above, so I am trying to learn CC first.
The problem I am having is implementing Jazzman's scouting guide, because you can't know if they have a third pylon with CC first if they try to deny scouting, since a MSC and stalker kill and SCV before it can see anything when it returns at 5 mins.
+1 attack gives your marines 18% more DPS. +1 armor reduces stalker damage by 10% on marines and 12% from zealots. In WOL, I preferred to be very marine heavy (like 2 marauders MAX since they receive much less benefit from upgrades) with my 10 minute push for this reason. It feels like your chance at doing any damage or punishing greed are significantly reduced with Mr. Baker's +1+1 build.
|
On June 27 2013 18:26 TheDwf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2013 11:27 DigitalEMP wrote:
Anyone use a Marine/Medivac/Tank style still? In TvZ, you mean?
On June 27 2013 13:31 U_G_L_Y wrote:
So, people keep saying to check for a third pylon, but many builds don't have one before a stalker/MSC pops.
Troll build by QXC, but I often see 2 gas, sometimes with 2 workers, sometimes with 3, and 2 pylons before I have to leave with a scouting SCV. If they used any chrono on units, you have to leave sooner. Sometimes they expand, sometimes they don't. Everyone keeps saying that I just need to scout better to hold all these bullshit Protoss all-ins, but if you don't open reaper, how can you know what he is doing without getting a lucky scan? And if you open reaper, how do you not die to proxy oracle or many other things without being as good as DeMuslim and can hold everything with 1 barracks and an engineering bay? (His is a really awkward bumpy build, even he gets supply blocked all the time with it because nothing lines up well, and +1 armor is worthless vs Protoss, IMO)
If they park a stalker/MSC in front of their natural at 4:30, you can't know, even if you hide an SCV perfectly and run it back in at 5 minutes because they can just snipe it. They could be proxy SG, DTs, double expo, immortal bust, delayed 4 gate... anything. What am I missing? MSC expands don't build a third pylon before Nexus indeed, but you will see the expansion with your SCV. If he first makes MSC + Stalker before expanding, the Reaper will see it. If you saw no third Pylon and there is no expand afterwards, you can know something is up. Don't play without a Reaper if you're not good at reading Protoss' builds, you will simply face too many issues. Handling proxy Oracles isn't particularly complicated, if a Pylon is missing and he's not expanding immediately (MSC expands build their Nexus at 3'45), first check the common proxy locations with your Reaper before heading towards Protoss' natural; you can double check with your scouting SCV too, then you make one Turret in your mineral line and one near your rax if necessary. + Show Spoiler +
On June 27 2013 15:17 KingofGods wrote:
My goal this season has been to keep average unspent resources below 900. I am doing okay with that (average 928), but problems arise when I reach max, especially when meching tvt and I float a lot of resources. Any suggestions what I should do? I don't want to carelessly through away units just to keep my resources down. What I usually do is build non stop cc's but even that doesn't use up resources fast enough lol. Beyond a certain income or in some circumstances you can't realistically keep your average unspent resources below the threshold you defined, so don't worry.
On June 27 2013 16:56 Danglars wrote:
I want to thank this thread for teaching this noob ass terran how to not panic and face players my skill level on an even footing TvZ. I went in to it with gold macro and clueless decision making (I think I saw this play on a stream once. Let's do it!!) and read this thread's suggestions about builds, engagements, and lategame. I stopped fearing ultralisk/ling/bling, I started preparing more for allins/attacks (still plenty of work to go, plenty of games to nail down) and started winning games by more than lucky drops. Thanks DWF for all the work you put in along with Ver (your SC1 learning guide is legit). Carry on Terrans. Thanks for the support!
I see this MSC+1 or 2 stalker push all the time as a reaction to CC first, with an expansion behind it. Or sometimes it is blink. Or warp prism 4 gate. If I don't get a scout at 5 minutes, I don't have time to react.
|
Seeing where the chronoboost is being used and how much is saved up is far more important than looking for that third pylon in my opinion. If you see he has a lot of gas mined and not spending a chrono for mothership core or stalker than you know he is saving it for tech, either blink or stargate since dt production doesn't require chrono.
|
Diamond terran (went from masters -> low diamond)
What should be your goal in TvT hellbat drop wars? I don't know whether to attack or defend and it feels like my terran opponents do just the right thing and get all my scvs, while I pretty much can't kill more than 5 of theirs. I feel pretty helpless and lose to people a league below me. Thanks
|
On June 28 2013 08:51 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
What do people in this thread think about the viability of just a few tanks in lategame TvP, like around 3-4 or so? The reason why I want the tanks is because Terran (or perhaps it's just me) often seems to engage better when you have a pre-spread concave that would just decimate toss (hopefully) if they attacked into it, as you can worry about emp/stutter step as opposed to splitting and spreading during the engagement. I was thinking that tanks could force an engagement by perhaps sieging a base and slowly whittling it down while you stand near them, out of the protoss army range, waiting for them to attack into you or lose the base, or siege their army, so you slowly gain some ground, and can eventually threaten a base, take one of your own, etc. Is there a reason I'm missing as to why this wouldn't work?
I tried mixing in a few tanks and it worked well to zone HT's
Also gives you a bit of a safety net. Also people shouldn't worry so much about the stats on ggtracker and so on... If you're not macroing well you should probably know it.
|
On June 28 2013 08:51 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
What do people in this thread think about the viability of just a few tanks in lategame TvP, like around 3-4 or so? The reason why I want the tanks is because Terran (or perhaps it's just me) often seems to engage better when you have a pre-spread concave that would just decimate toss (hopefully) if they attacked into it, as you can worry about emp/stutter step as opposed to splitting and spreading during the engagement. I was thinking that tanks could force an engagement by perhaps sieging a base and slowly whittling it down while you stand near them, out of the protoss army range, waiting for them to attack into you or lose the base, or siege their army, so you slowly gain some ground, and can eventually threaten a base, take one of your own, etc. Is there a reason I'm missing as to why this wouldn't work?
Yes you are correct it is much easier to get a cost efficient trade with toss if you are prespread. In regards to your commenr about forcing the engagement with tanks I think you can accomplish the same thing without them. Assuming you catch the toss army out of position prespread your army clos to his base and stim a handful of MM forward to attack the nexi. In order to stop his base from going down he will have to engage into you.
Good luck!
|
On June 28 2013 09:59 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 14:13 Whatson wrote:
Well if you're having so much trouble with reaper openings vP maybe you should change your BO.
Also, explain what you mean when you say that +1 armor is useless vP Sorry, I meant that I don't like reaper openings because really the only build that is safe from fast oracles after a reaper opening is DeMuslim's +1+1, and I really really hate that build for a variety of reasons explained above, so I am trying to learn CC first. The problem I am having is implementing Jazzman's scouting guide, because you can't know if they have a third pylon with CC first if they try to deny scouting, since a MSC and stalker kill and SCV before it can see anything when it returns at 5 mins. +1 attack gives your marines 18% more DPS. +1 armor reduces stalker damage by 10% on marines and 12% from zealots. In WOL, I preferred to be very marine heavy (like 2 marauders MAX since they receive much less benefit from upgrades) with my 10 minute push for this reason. It feels like your chance at doing any damage or punishing greed are significantly reduced with Mr. Baker's +1+1 build.
Reactor expand after your first Reaper. Then when you got the gas, build a Factory, and Engineering Bay. One of them comes first, and I believe it's the Engineering Bay. Then build a missile turret in your mineral line, and build one Widow Mine. Now you're safe!
|
On June 28 2013 10:16 Kid-Fox wrote:
Diamond terran (went from masters -> low diamond)
What should be your goal in TvT hellbat drop wars? I don't know whether to attack or defend and it feels like my terran opponents do just the right thing and get all my scvs, while I pretty much can't kill more than 5 of theirs. I feel pretty helpless and lose to people a league below me. Thanks
Depends on the exact build that you and your opponent did as to when hellbats get to each other's base. If you have an expo and his hellbats reached your base before yours reached his than chances are you have an expo and he does not. In that case just defend. If your hellbats are already out in the field and almost at your opponents base when his hellbats arrive then just continue with the attack and run scvs until your next wave of hellbats come out and you can fend off his hellbats. I always make vikings after my first round of medivacs to shut down opponent medivacs.
|
On June 28 2013 10:27 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 09:59 U_G_L_Y wrote:On June 27 2013 14:13 Whatson wrote:
Well if you're having so much trouble with reaper openings vP maybe you should change your BO.
Also, explain what you mean when you say that +1 armor is useless vP Sorry, I meant that I don't like reaper openings because really the only build that is safe from fast oracles after a reaper opening is DeMuslim's +1+1, and I really really hate that build for a variety of reasons explained above, so I am trying to learn CC first. The problem I am having is implementing Jazzman's scouting guide, because you can't know if they have a third pylon with CC first if they try to deny scouting, since a MSC and stalker kill and SCV before it can see anything when it returns at 5 mins. +1 attack gives your marines 18% more DPS. +1 armor reduces stalker damage by 10% on marines and 12% from zealots. In WOL, I preferred to be very marine heavy (like 2 marauders MAX since they receive much less benefit from upgrades) with my 10 minute push for this reason. It feels like your chance at doing any damage or punishing greed are significantly reduced with Mr. Baker's +1+1 build. Reactor expand after your first Reaper. Then when you got the gas, build a Factory, and Engineering Bay. One of them comes first, and I believe it's the Engineering Bay. Then build a missile turret in your mineral line, and build one Widow Mine. Now you're safe!
That is exactly the build I was just saying that I really really hate...
|
cc first super strong, i play it almost only (reaktor expands suck)
i do 15cc 15/16 rax, when marine 4 and 5 are building get double gas, reaktor techlab 3rd cc. super greedy, dont play if theres a chance to get blunkstalked
also for the +1 attack vs +1 armor, +1 attack is way better, u also have to consider stimmed marines attack way faster, stalker and zealots have 1 armor built in.
also its generally better for ranged units to have more dps rather than more survivability, as they shoot before they are attack (vs zealots/zerg)
there is not szenario where +1 armor is close to being as good as +1 attack.
|
On June 28 2013 07:19 S7EFEN wrote:
I've been playing around with phoenix builds and I've, rather than going for workers been going for production between cycles.
With 3 phoenix and an obs I can grab marines/marauders and medivacs between cycles and force turrets on both mineral lines as well as in the production if they don't want to spread their units, making my stargate more effective.
My question is, is this kind of harass more effective ? I feel like worker harass with phoenix vs T isn't good at all because even if you kill 10+ workers each worker is 'worth less' than with P or Z.
Why would a terran worker be worth less than a P or Z worker? They gather the same, it isn't that terran doesn't need minerals, so I really don't see how a terran worker wouldn't be as important. Of course in general a terran will have less workers, compensated by SCVs. But that doesn't change the value of a terran worker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
