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On June 14 2013 23:28 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 17:05 govie wrote:On June 14 2013 14:59 Smackzilla wrote:
@govie, re: stuck in gold
The folks in diamond and masters don't just have spending skill and saturation at that level, but they also army control, unit composition, scouting, and adaptation at that level as well. If a person has diamond macro but is bronze/silver in all the other skills, what league should they expect? High gold perhaps?
Now, let's say that person could get out of gold a couple of ways: achieving masters level macro or achieving gold level army control and composition. Which do you think the player can achieve first?
Moral of the story: sure macro is the most important thing, but that doesnt make the other skills irrelevant. At some point in your development as a player, the lowest hanging fruit on the road to improvement are going to be things other than macro. Totally agree. I got the scouting part under control, gives me some more wins for sure. And armycontrol im already looking for better concaves and such (engage --> retreating 5 cm --> better concave --> fairer engagement). I still need to work at more controlgroups and micro intensive units, but i dont think for reaching plat those two will hold me back too much. Season just started and im 17-8 with 200 points. I need to quadruple that to get promoted (800 points is what battle.net says for promotion). So maybe i didnt play enough games during seasons to get promoted. Storms are the most difficult spell to play against for me as terran (although still good winrate against Protos thx to kiting). So ill start training myself to use some ghosts in every matchup (nukes are funny). Practise makes perfect  I won't be surprised if you get promoted soon. Its all about your MMR, not your current points.
Now im confused. Is it MMR or is it a good winrate in your league that gets u promoted?
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On June 14 2013 23:49 govie wrote:
Now im confused. Is it MMR or is it a good winrate in your league that gets u promoted?
Wins increase your MMR, losses decrease it. Your league is just an icon that indicates the range of your MMR.
So your winrate gets you promoted (because your MMR is increased into the next leagues' range).
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On June 14 2013 21:58 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 21:30 redsniper wrote:and again ! http://drop.sc/343251no one got eny advise how to stop this ?? i dont need feedback like your second helion was late or why u build 2 more scv´s i need some fundamental advise what to do in this situation the only thing i see is blocking the choke with rax but cant play that every TvZ and he could fool me anyway .. pls im really suffering from this .. is CC first the standard Bo at this moment ?? greetz I wrote it some post before: CC first is not standart now. Only because Innovation make it posible,doesnt mean, the rest of us can. Just stop doing it. There is no way to stop it with your actual BO. I ve see today people like MKP,Select,Painuser and SC NOT going CC first. Not anymore. On Whirlwind is so obvius,that you will lose every single game by BO loss. As you could see,even beaing able to scout it(usually no,because they got speedlings at 6:00 min),you cant stop it. Is it so difficutl for you to use another BO or insted of 3CC make 2 rax? SC was doing this,no 3cc and early 2 rax to defend. He was even going reactor hellion expand as in WoL with the CC on low ground. There is no standart TvZ BO at the moment, because of the game still evolving. Some try mech,other reaper expand.1CC, reactor hellion, widow mine drop, hellbat drop....
I would tend to disagree with a lot of this. First of all, CC first is 100% viable and very standard, basically as safe as 1rax expo. There is no reason why you can't go CC first, hellions, into 2 rax.
Also, a reaper expand into 3CC hellion is not any less likely to defend a roach/baneling bust than a 3CC CC first hellion build, as it still has the same 2 production buildings. Same goes for hellbat/widow mine drops as they will have a reactored factory, naked starport, and a barracks when this hits. Not any more potential for defense than redsniper's build.
@redsniper, as another diamond to another, this is very hard to hold. I tend to retreat to my main when I scout this. As for the scouting, had you hid your scouting SCV out on the map rather than in the main, you can sac it at around 5:45 to check the unit/drone count at the natural. I do this every game, and in this game you would have seen 6 lings just sitting there, 1 queen and no other queen being produced, and only a couple of drones had you managed to get that far. This is a telltale sign about what is going to come. Once you scout something like that (and if it gets denied you can scan soon anyway) i think the best option would be to retreat to your main, build some bunkers there, get around 8 hellions (which can kill his force with some really good micro) and then retake your natural. You can also use building to wall off sections of the ramp. For instance, use your barracks to finish the wall, as you've already scouted it at this point, evacuate your natural and use that CC to place behind the depot. It won't make a full walloff but it will filter lings through in a line which makes your hellions more effective. Then, once you get 8 or so hellions, where in the interim you want to micro those you have, dont lose them, and just delay, you can effectively counterattack and kill drones, putting you very far ahead.
Also, you can tighten your build a bit. You get your first 2 hellions out at 7:15, right when the attack hits. I get mine at 6:30 with an identical build, which would mean I could have 6 instead of 2 for the attack, which would defend this really, really solidly provided i micro pretty well. That would make a world of difference for you.
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What does one do against a Zerg that opens roaches?
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On June 15 2013 00:47 DragonKing132 wrote:
What does one do against a Zerg that opens roaches?
You mean 1base roach? Roach bane allin? Can you be a little more specific?
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On June 15 2013 00:26 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 21:58 Dvriel wrote:On June 14 2013 21:30 redsniper wrote:and again ! http://drop.sc/343251no one got eny advise how to stop this ?? i dont need feedback like your second helion was late or why u build 2 more scv´s i need some fundamental advise what to do in this situation the only thing i see is blocking the choke with rax but cant play that every TvZ and he could fool me anyway .. pls im really suffering from this .. is CC first the standard Bo at this moment ?? greetz I wrote it some post before: CC first is not standart now. Only because Innovation make it posible,doesnt mean, the rest of us can. Just stop doing it. There is no way to stop it with your actual BO. I ve see today people like MKP,Select,Painuser and SC NOT going CC first. Not anymore. On Whirlwind is so obvius,that you will lose every single game by BO loss. As you could see,even beaing able to scout it(usually no,because they got speedlings at 6:00 min),you cant stop it. Is it so difficutl for you to use another BO or insted of 3CC make 2 rax? SC was doing this,no 3cc and early 2 rax to defend. He was even going reactor hellion expand as in WoL with the CC on low ground. There is no standart TvZ BO at the moment, because of the game still evolving. Some try mech,other reaper expand.1CC, reactor hellion, widow mine drop, hellbat drop.... I would tend to disagree with a lot of this. First of all, CC first is 100% viable and very standard, basically as safe as 1rax expo. There is no reason why you can't go CC first, hellions, into 2 rax. Also, a reaper expand into 3CC hellion is not any less likely to defend a roach/baneling bust than a 3CC CC first hellion build, as it still has the same 2 production buildings. Same goes for hellbat/widow mine drops as they will have a reactored factory, naked starport, and a barracks when this hits. Not any more potential for defense than redsniper's build. @redsniper, as another diamond to another, this is very hard to hold. I tend to retreat to my main when I scout this. As for the scouting, had you hid your scouting SCV out on the map rather than in the main, you can sac it at around 5:45 to check the unit/drone count at the natural. I do this every game, and in this game you would have seen 6 lings just sitting there, 1 queen and no other queen being produced, and only a couple of drones had you managed to get that far. This is a telltale sign about what is going to come. Once you scout something like that (and if it gets denied you can scan soon anyway) i think the best option would be to retreat to your main, build some bunkers there, get around 8 hellions (which can kill his force with some really good micro) and then retake your natural. You can also use building to wall off sections of the ramp. For instance, use your barracks to finish the wall, as you've already scouted it at this point, evacuate your natural and use that CC to place behind the depot. It won't make a full walloff but it will filter lings through in a line which makes your hellions more effective. Then, once you get 8 or so hellions, where in the interim you want to micro those you have, dont lose them, and just delay, you can effectively counterattack and kill drones, putting you very far ahead. Also, you can tighten your build a bit. You get your first 2 hellions out at 7:15, right when the attack hits. I get mine at 6:30 with an identical build, which would mean I could have 6 instead of 2 for the attack, which would defend this really, really solidly provided i micro pretty well. That would make a world of difference for you.
@PinheadXXXXXX, as another diamond to another, I think you may not understand exactly what is all about. We are talking about CC first into 3 CC with reactor hellions into 2 ebay + 2rax. Do you really think is posible to have bunkers and 8 hellions the moment this attack is coming? You got no time to build them and keep them alive, because the Zerg is sending more and more speedling to finish the job. Losing the Wall in the natural = losing 4 to 5 depots and you will be highly supply blocked,without being able to build anything.Do you think the zerg will stay and wit you to get your 8 hellions? He will make more banelings and destroy even the wall in the ramp. To finish the wall there you are supposed to use the Rax+lab and Factory+reactor and one supply depot.
His first 2 hellions were out at 6:50, 20 seconds later tan yours and even if you got them at 6:30, at 7:15 you only can have 4 with 2 more to come 15 seconds later.Finally, I would like to see some of your replays and so you can show us how is this posible to hold.
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On June 14 2013 23:49 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 23:28 Smackzilla wrote:On June 14 2013 17:05 govie wrote:On June 14 2013 14:59 Smackzilla wrote:
@govie, re: stuck in gold
The folks in diamond and masters don't just have spending skill and saturation at that level, but they also army control, unit composition, scouting, and adaptation at that level as well. If a person has diamond macro but is bronze/silver in all the other skills, what league should they expect? High gold perhaps?
Now, let's say that person could get out of gold a couple of ways: achieving masters level macro or achieving gold level army control and composition. Which do you think the player can achieve first?
Moral of the story: sure macro is the most important thing, but that doesnt make the other skills irrelevant. At some point in your development as a player, the lowest hanging fruit on the road to improvement are going to be things other than macro. Totally agree. I got the scouting part under control, gives me some more wins for sure. And armycontrol im already looking for better concaves and such (engage --> retreating 5 cm --> better concave --> fairer engagement). I still need to work at more controlgroups and micro intensive units, but i dont think for reaching plat those two will hold me back too much. Season just started and im 17-8 with 200 points. I need to quadruple that to get promoted (800 points is what battle.net says for promotion). So maybe i didnt play enough games during seasons to get promoted. Storms are the most difficult spell to play against for me as terran (although still good winrate against Protos thx to kiting). So ill start training myself to use some ghosts in every matchup (nukes are funny). Practise makes perfect I won't be surprised if you get promoted soon. Its all about your MMR, not your current points. Now im confused. Is it MMR or is it a good winrate in your league that gets u promoted?
Its more about your MMR (hidden match-making rating), the MMR of your opponents, and whether you "stabilized" at that level of play. For example, your MMR could be matching you against platinum-level players and you're going 50/50 against them. Once blizzard's system has confidence that's not a fluke, then it will promote you from gold. Your actual points and rank dont really matter.
Ultimately, its a complicated system full of mystery and conjecture. The gist of it is: hold your own against higher-level players for enough time and you'll get promoted. If you're really worried about it, there's an sc2gears plugin to help you estimate your MMR. I hear it does a decent job of predicting when you get promoted.
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On June 15 2013 01:27 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 00:26 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On June 14 2013 21:58 Dvriel wrote:On June 14 2013 21:30 redsniper wrote:and again ! http://drop.sc/343251no one got eny advise how to stop this ?? i dont need feedback like your second helion was late or why u build 2 more scv´s i need some fundamental advise what to do in this situation the only thing i see is blocking the choke with rax but cant play that every TvZ and he could fool me anyway .. pls im really suffering from this .. is CC first the standard Bo at this moment ?? greetz I wrote it some post before: CC first is not standart now. Only because Innovation make it posible,doesnt mean, the rest of us can. Just stop doing it. There is no way to stop it with your actual BO. I ve see today people like MKP,Select,Painuser and SC NOT going CC first. Not anymore. On Whirlwind is so obvius,that you will lose every single game by BO loss. As you could see,even beaing able to scout it(usually no,because they got speedlings at 6:00 min),you cant stop it. Is it so difficutl for you to use another BO or insted of 3CC make 2 rax? SC was doing this,no 3cc and early 2 rax to defend. He was even going reactor hellion expand as in WoL with the CC on low ground. There is no standart TvZ BO at the moment, because of the game still evolving. Some try mech,other reaper expand.1CC, reactor hellion, widow mine drop, hellbat drop.... I would tend to disagree with a lot of this. First of all, CC first is 100% viable and very standard, basically as safe as 1rax expo. There is no reason why you can't go CC first, hellions, into 2 rax. Also, a reaper expand into 3CC hellion is not any less likely to defend a roach/baneling bust than a 3CC CC first hellion build, as it still has the same 2 production buildings. Same goes for hellbat/widow mine drops as they will have a reactored factory, naked starport, and a barracks when this hits. Not any more potential for defense than redsniper's build. @redsniper, as another diamond to another, this is very hard to hold. I tend to retreat to my main when I scout this. As for the scouting, had you hid your scouting SCV out on the map rather than in the main, you can sac it at around 5:45 to check the unit/drone count at the natural. I do this every game, and in this game you would have seen 6 lings just sitting there, 1 queen and no other queen being produced, and only a couple of drones had you managed to get that far. This is a telltale sign about what is going to come. Once you scout something like that (and if it gets denied you can scan soon anyway) i think the best option would be to retreat to your main, build some bunkers there, get around 8 hellions (which can kill his force with some really good micro) and then retake your natural. You can also use building to wall off sections of the ramp. For instance, use your barracks to finish the wall, as you've already scouted it at this point, evacuate your natural and use that CC to place behind the depot. It won't make a full walloff but it will filter lings through in a line which makes your hellions more effective. Then, once you get 8 or so hellions, where in the interim you want to micro those you have, dont lose them, and just delay, you can effectively counterattack and kill drones, putting you very far ahead. Also, you can tighten your build a bit. You get your first 2 hellions out at 7:15, right when the attack hits. I get mine at 6:30 with an identical build, which would mean I could have 6 instead of 2 for the attack, which would defend this really, really solidly provided i micro pretty well. That would make a world of difference for you. @PinheadXXXXXX, as another diamond to another, I think you may not understand exactly what is all about. We are talking about CC first into 3 CC with reactor hellions into 2 ebay + 2rax. Do you really think is posible to have bunkers and 8 hellions the moment this attack is coming? You got no time to build them and keep them alive, because the Zerg is sending more and more speedling to finish the job. Losing the Wall in the natural = losing 4 to 5 depots and you will be highly supply blocked,without being able to build anything.Do you think the zerg will stay and wit you to get your 8 hellions? He will make more banelings and destroy even the wall in the ramp. To finish the wall there you are supposed to use the Rax+lab and Factory+reactor and one supply depot. His first 2 hellions were out at 6:50, 20 seconds later tan yours and even if you got them at 6:30, at 7:15 you only can have 4 with 2 more to come 15 seconds later.Finally, I would like to see some of your replays and so you can show us how is this posible to hold.
So. First, there are no hellions on the map until 7:14. That is a fact. Now imagine if he had built those supply depots in the natural in the main, to make a double-layered wall, so when the natural is busted you dont lose anything, as the CC is lifted, bunker salvaged, workers evacuated, and everything in the main. You focus the banelings when they come up the ramp with the hellions, which should be easy enough, as they wwould be in a straight line. You should notice the banelings are done at 7:30. By then there should be 6 hellions out. Perhaps he gets supply capped after that, but with 6 hellions he can kill lings while fighting with the workers and dishing out damage with the hellions, rewall the main, and then get ready for the next wave, which will be even weaker. Perhaps eventually he has 30 seconds to get 2 more hellions out, which really isn't that much time, as he only needs to delay for a short while. By that point he is fine, especially if he even goes up to 10 hellions.
The reason why there is time to build even 1 bunker in the main is because he could have scouted this at around 5:30-6:00. There is plenty of time to build another bunker in the main, salvage the one in the natural, and use the 500 minerals he spent on the depots at the natural for more defense in the main. There is no reason why he wouldn't have time to do this providing he had scouted this early, and this will provide the added benefit of everything being filtered up the main ramp, and therefore being lined up for the hellions to kill the banelings. Once the banelings are gone, or if they break some of the wall but not enough, then more need to morph, and more hellions can come out.
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In TvP, when the Protoss starts with templer and archon tech off 2 base, I cant really afford to get medivacs and upgrades and ghosts, cutting upgrades is obviously bad, so should I cut some starport production to get ghosts up quickly? Or should I try to get a third first with gas running and then get ghost? Thanks!
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On June 15 2013 02:28 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 01:27 Dvriel wrote:On June 15 2013 00:26 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On June 14 2013 21:58 Dvriel wrote:On June 14 2013 21:30 redsniper wrote:and again ! http://drop.sc/343251no one got eny advise how to stop this ?? i dont need feedback like your second helion was late or why u build 2 more scv´s i need some fundamental advise what to do in this situation the only thing i see is blocking the choke with rax but cant play that every TvZ and he could fool me anyway .. pls im really suffering from this .. is CC first the standard Bo at this moment ?? greetz I wrote it some post before: CC first is not standart now. Only because Innovation make it posible,doesnt mean, the rest of us can. Just stop doing it. There is no way to stop it with your actual BO. I ve see today people like MKP,Select,Painuser and SC NOT going CC first. Not anymore. On Whirlwind is so obvius,that you will lose every single game by BO loss. As you could see,even beaing able to scout it(usually no,because they got speedlings at 6:00 min),you cant stop it. Is it so difficutl for you to use another BO or insted of 3CC make 2 rax? SC was doing this,no 3cc and early 2 rax to defend. He was even going reactor hellion expand as in WoL with the CC on low ground. There is no standart TvZ BO at the moment, because of the game still evolving. Some try mech,other reaper expand.1CC, reactor hellion, widow mine drop, hellbat drop.... I would tend to disagree with a lot of this. First of all, CC first is 100% viable and very standard, basically as safe as 1rax expo. There is no reason why you can't go CC first, hellions, into 2 rax. Also, a reaper expand into 3CC hellion is not any less likely to defend a roach/baneling bust than a 3CC CC first hellion build, as it still has the same 2 production buildings. Same goes for hellbat/widow mine drops as they will have a reactored factory, naked starport, and a barracks when this hits. Not any more potential for defense than redsniper's build. @redsniper, as another diamond to another, this is very hard to hold. I tend to retreat to my main when I scout this. As for the scouting, had you hid your scouting SCV out on the map rather than in the main, you can sac it at around 5:45 to check the unit/drone count at the natural. I do this every game, and in this game you would have seen 6 lings just sitting there, 1 queen and no other queen being produced, and only a couple of drones had you managed to get that far. This is a telltale sign about what is going to come. Once you scout something like that (and if it gets denied you can scan soon anyway) i think the best option would be to retreat to your main, build some bunkers there, get around 8 hellions (which can kill his force with some really good micro) and then retake your natural. You can also use building to wall off sections of the ramp. For instance, use your barracks to finish the wall, as you've already scouted it at this point, evacuate your natural and use that CC to place behind the depot. It won't make a full walloff but it will filter lings through in a line which makes your hellions more effective. Then, once you get 8 or so hellions, where in the interim you want to micro those you have, dont lose them, and just delay, you can effectively counterattack and kill drones, putting you very far ahead. Also, you can tighten your build a bit. You get your first 2 hellions out at 7:15, right when the attack hits. I get mine at 6:30 with an identical build, which would mean I could have 6 instead of 2 for the attack, which would defend this really, really solidly provided i micro pretty well. That would make a world of difference for you. @PinheadXXXXXX, as another diamond to another, I think you may not understand exactly what is all about. We are talking about CC first into 3 CC with reactor hellions into 2 ebay + 2rax. Do you really think is posible to have bunkers and 8 hellions the moment this attack is coming? You got no time to build them and keep them alive, because the Zerg is sending more and more speedling to finish the job. Losing the Wall in the natural = losing 4 to 5 depots and you will be highly supply blocked,without being able to build anything.Do you think the zerg will stay and wit you to get your 8 hellions? He will make more banelings and destroy even the wall in the ramp. To finish the wall there you are supposed to use the Rax+lab and Factory+reactor and one supply depot. His first 2 hellions were out at 6:50, 20 seconds later tan yours and even if you got them at 6:30, at 7:15 you only can have 4 with 2 more to come 15 seconds later.Finally, I would like to see some of your replays and so you can show us how is this posible to hold. So. First, there are no hellions on the map until 7:14. That is a fact. Now imagine if he had built those supply depots in the natural in the main, to make a double-layered wall, so when the natural is busted you dont lose anything, as the CC is lifted, bunker salvaged, workers evacuated, and everything in the main. You focus the banelings when they come up the ramp with the hellions, which should be easy enough, as they wwould be in a straight line. You should notice the banelings are done at 7:30. By then there should be 6 hellions out. Perhaps he gets supply capped after that, but with 6 hellions he can kill lings while fighting with the workers and dishing out damage with the hellions, rewall the main, and then get ready for the next wave, which will be even weaker. Perhaps eventually he has 30 seconds to get 2 more hellions out, which really isn't that much time, as he only needs to delay for a short while. By that point he is fine, especially if he even goes up to 10 hellions. The reason why there is time to build even 1 bunker in the main is because he could have scouted this at around 5:30-6:00. There is plenty of time to build another bunker in the main, salvage the one in the natural, and use the 500 minerals he spent on the depots at the natural for more defense in the main. There is no reason why he wouldn't have time to do this providing he had scouted this early, and this will provide the added benefit of everything being filtered up the main ramp, and therefore being lined up for the hellions to kill the banelings. Once the banelings are gone, or if they break some of the wall but not enough, then more need to morph, and more hellions can come out.
What I wrote wasnt about his game.We were theorycrafting and you missed the point. His execution of the BO is wrong. Nothing is as it should be, because first of all at 20 supply he should begin with the bunker on the ramo in the natural. The doublé ebay was not even begann and so and so...You must also see that the Zerg got no speed at 6 min,what is STANDART actually in every TvZ. The hellions were late,its a fact,but you still cant scout what is coming.SCV will never past the queen and lings in the natural to scout the baneling nest and how can you say if there is baneling bust and not roach speedling coming??? So many lings arround the map...I ve see this so many times and they were not always for baneling bust,just to keep the map control and be prepared to deny drops.Usually good zergs make the bust at 6:30-7:00 and its much earlier tan your 6 hellions. Still can be defended with perfect micro,sniping banelings with hellions and fighting lings with workers,but the attack is much easier to execute than to defend.Thats why I recommend another BO, much safer
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On June 15 2013 03:43 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 02:28 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On June 15 2013 01:27 Dvriel wrote:On June 15 2013 00:26 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On June 14 2013 21:58 Dvriel wrote:On June 14 2013 21:30 redsniper wrote:and again ! http://drop.sc/343251no one got eny advise how to stop this ?? i dont need feedback like your second helion was late or why u build 2 more scv´s i need some fundamental advise what to do in this situation the only thing i see is blocking the choke with rax but cant play that every TvZ and he could fool me anyway .. pls im really suffering from this .. is CC first the standard Bo at this moment ?? greetz I wrote it some post before: CC first is not standart now. Only because Innovation make it posible,doesnt mean, the rest of us can. Just stop doing it. There is no way to stop it with your actual BO. I ve see today people like MKP,Select,Painuser and SC NOT going CC first. Not anymore. On Whirlwind is so obvius,that you will lose every single game by BO loss. As you could see,even beaing able to scout it(usually no,because they got speedlings at 6:00 min),you cant stop it. Is it so difficutl for you to use another BO or insted of 3CC make 2 rax? SC was doing this,no 3cc and early 2 rax to defend. He was even going reactor hellion expand as in WoL with the CC on low ground. There is no standart TvZ BO at the moment, because of the game still evolving. Some try mech,other reaper expand.1CC, reactor hellion, widow mine drop, hellbat drop.... I would tend to disagree with a lot of this. First of all, CC first is 100% viable and very standard, basically as safe as 1rax expo. There is no reason why you can't go CC first, hellions, into 2 rax. Also, a reaper expand into 3CC hellion is not any less likely to defend a roach/baneling bust than a 3CC CC first hellion build, as it still has the same 2 production buildings. Same goes for hellbat/widow mine drops as they will have a reactored factory, naked starport, and a barracks when this hits. Not any more potential for defense than redsniper's build. @redsniper, as another diamond to another, this is very hard to hold. I tend to retreat to my main when I scout this. As for the scouting, had you hid your scouting SCV out on the map rather than in the main, you can sac it at around 5:45 to check the unit/drone count at the natural. I do this every game, and in this game you would have seen 6 lings just sitting there, 1 queen and no other queen being produced, and only a couple of drones had you managed to get that far. This is a telltale sign about what is going to come. Once you scout something like that (and if it gets denied you can scan soon anyway) i think the best option would be to retreat to your main, build some bunkers there, get around 8 hellions (which can kill his force with some really good micro) and then retake your natural. You can also use building to wall off sections of the ramp. For instance, use your barracks to finish the wall, as you've already scouted it at this point, evacuate your natural and use that CC to place behind the depot. It won't make a full walloff but it will filter lings through in a line which makes your hellions more effective. Then, once you get 8 or so hellions, where in the interim you want to micro those you have, dont lose them, and just delay, you can effectively counterattack and kill drones, putting you very far ahead. Also, you can tighten your build a bit. You get your first 2 hellions out at 7:15, right when the attack hits. I get mine at 6:30 with an identical build, which would mean I could have 6 instead of 2 for the attack, which would defend this really, really solidly provided i micro pretty well. That would make a world of difference for you. @PinheadXXXXXX, as another diamond to another, I think you may not understand exactly what is all about. We are talking about CC first into 3 CC with reactor hellions into 2 ebay + 2rax. Do you really think is posible to have bunkers and 8 hellions the moment this attack is coming? You got no time to build them and keep them alive, because the Zerg is sending more and more speedling to finish the job. Losing the Wall in the natural = losing 4 to 5 depots and you will be highly supply blocked,without being able to build anything.Do you think the zerg will stay and wit you to get your 8 hellions? He will make more banelings and destroy even the wall in the ramp. To finish the wall there you are supposed to use the Rax+lab and Factory+reactor and one supply depot. His first 2 hellions were out at 6:50, 20 seconds later tan yours and even if you got them at 6:30, at 7:15 you only can have 4 with 2 more to come 15 seconds later.Finally, I would like to see some of your replays and so you can show us how is this posible to hold. So. First, there are no hellions on the map until 7:14. That is a fact. Now imagine if he had built those supply depots in the natural in the main, to make a double-layered wall, so when the natural is busted you dont lose anything, as the CC is lifted, bunker salvaged, workers evacuated, and everything in the main. You focus the banelings when they come up the ramp with the hellions, which should be easy enough, as they wwould be in a straight line. You should notice the banelings are done at 7:30. By then there should be 6 hellions out. Perhaps he gets supply capped after that, but with 6 hellions he can kill lings while fighting with the workers and dishing out damage with the hellions, rewall the main, and then get ready for the next wave, which will be even weaker. Perhaps eventually he has 30 seconds to get 2 more hellions out, which really isn't that much time, as he only needs to delay for a short while. By that point he is fine, especially if he even goes up to 10 hellions. The reason why there is time to build even 1 bunker in the main is because he could have scouted this at around 5:30-6:00. There is plenty of time to build another bunker in the main, salvage the one in the natural, and use the 500 minerals he spent on the depots at the natural for more defense in the main. There is no reason why he wouldn't have time to do this providing he had scouted this early, and this will provide the added benefit of everything being filtered up the main ramp, and therefore being lined up for the hellions to kill the banelings. Once the banelings are gone, or if they break some of the wall but not enough, then more need to morph, and more hellions can come out. What I wrote wasnt about his game.We were theorycrafting and you missed the point. His execution of the BO is wrong. Nothing is as it should be, because first of all at 20 supply he should begin with the bunker on the ramo in the natural. The doublé ebay was not even begann and so and so...You must also see that the Zerg got no speed at 6 min,what is STANDART actually in every TvZ. The hellions were late,its a fact,but you still cant scout what is coming.SCV will never past the queen and lings in the natural to scout the baneling nest and how can you say if there is baneling bust and not roach speedling coming??? So many lings arround the map...I ve see this so many times and they were not always for baneling bust,just to keep the map control and be prepared to deny drops.Usually good zergs make the bust at 6:30-7:00 and its much earlier tan your 6 hellions. Still can be defended with perfect micro,sniping banelings with hellions and fighting lings with workers,but the attack is much easier to execute than to defend.Thats why I recommend another BO, much safer
I disagree with several things here. First that CC first-->reactor hellion-->3rd cc etc. is a more "vunerable" build to a speedling-bane bust than 1rax FE or reaper. There are several clues to pick up on when SCV scouting with CC first: fast speed while also continuing to mine gas, no 3rd, and more than 4-6 lings, low saturation at the natural. Yes you will probably have to sac another SCV to see this, but it's worth it to be sure it's sling-bane rather than any roach variant. Also no Z is going to just make more than 6-8 lings for "map control" since they're sacrificing a lot of economy to do that. You need way more than 8 to get map control away from a Terran that makes 6 hellions and if the T gets a look at a big sling ball, they can just head back to their own natural and now the Z is stuck with a bunch of lings that could have been drones.
Now the fastest I've been hit with this was with two hellions on the map and two more in production. Those two hellions will see the banes morphing outside your natural. Simcity plays a big part in your ability to survive this. First keep the bunker near the CC rather than at the edge of the ramp while building a depot wall in front of it and blocking off access to the mineral line from that side of the CC. Target the banes with the hellions. Immediately start a couple depots in your main to avoid getting supply locked by the bane bust. Try and keep the bunker* repaired but it's not the end of the world if it dies and you lose some SCVs. Remember - for the Z to do this they have cut a tremendous number of drones while you will have 3 CCs, so unless you transferred a bunch of SCVs from you main for some reason, or you let them break into your main, you're still in the game.
Edit - meant bunker
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On June 15 2013 03:15 Aquila- wrote:
In TvP, when the Protoss starts with templer and archon tech off 2 base, I cant really afford to get medivacs and upgrades and ghosts, cutting upgrades is obviously bad, so should I cut some starport production to get ghosts up quickly? Or should I try to get a third first with gas running and then get ghost? Thanks!
imo getting the third first and the gas running there sould be your first priority.
cutting starport production seems like a bad idea.
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Hello
What is the best way to deal against hellbats mech composition with MMM+T?
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On June 15 2013 20:34 Vete wrote:
Hello
What is the best way to deal against hellbats mech composition with MMM+T?
dont because u dont take a fight u cant win, just drop like crazy, they are imobile (weakness) and transition into better comp. (which means less marines).
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In gold, lost in tvz. I tried 4M against zerg for atleast 15 games but I often lose to bad engagements, any tips?
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On June 16 2013 08:52 jdvnboy97 wrote:
In gold, lost in tvz. I tried 4M against zerg for atleast 15 games but I often lose to bad engagements, any tips?
TvZ isn't only about winning big engagements like TvP is. Here are my advices :
-> Pre-split your army
-> Take down as much creep as you can. No creep = no vision.
-> Scan forward, try to know what's happening in front of your army
-> Always know where his army is
-> Send a pack of stimmed marines at the front.
-> Learn some very basic split micro, try marine split challenge. The goal is not to split like MarineKing does, but at least to not let your army die only to banelings.
- Drop the fuck out of him ! Drop while engaging his army, drop while defending your bases. Don't stop until he commit into static defence. Don't let him breathe until he starts defending correctly to your drops.
-> If you loose alot to banelings, consider making some marauders to tank damages.
-> If you loose to roach/hydra : Drop more and make tanks.
A good way to get an advantage without necessarily taking an engagement with the zerg army :
- Attack at around 11 - 12 mins, drop his main with 1 medivac while the rest of your army attack the third. Set up your widows mines so if he comes back to defend the third, he just eat all of them.
GL
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On June 14 2013 17:05 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 14:59 Smackzilla wrote:
@govie, re: stuck in gold
The folks in diamond and masters don't just have spending skill and saturation at that level, but they also army control, unit composition, scouting, and adaptation at that level as well. If a person has diamond macro but is bronze/silver in all the other skills, what league should they expect? High gold perhaps?
Now, let's say that person could get out of gold a couple of ways: achieving masters level macro or achieving gold level army control and composition. Which do you think the player can achieve first?
Moral of the story: sure macro is the most important thing, but that doesnt make the other skills irrelevant. At some point in your development as a player, the lowest hanging fruit on the road to improvement are going to be things other than macro. Totally agree. I got the scouting part under control, gives me some more wins for sure. And armycontrol im already looking for better concaves and such (engage --> retreating 5 cm --> better concave --> fairer engagement). I still need to work at more controlgroups and micro intensive units, but i dont think for reaching plat those two will hold me back too much. Season just started and im 17-8 with 200 points. I need to quadruple that to get promoted (800 points is what battle.net says for promotion). So maybe i didnt play enough games during seasons to get promoted. Storms are the most difficult spell to play against for me as terran (although still good winrate against Protos thx to kiting). So ill start training myself to use some ghosts in every matchup (nukes are funny). Practise makes perfect
I think it's best to work on army composition and pre-fight positioning before really hammering on micro, because those things take less time away from macro. Especially TvP, because you might not be able to move where you want once the fight starts!
With marines in TvZ, splitting takes a bunch of clicks, but bunching up once you've determined there's no banelings coming takes only one click, so I think it's pretty important to try to do it ahead of time
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On June 15 2013 00:52 tenklavir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 00:47 DragonKing132 wrote:
What does one do against a Zerg that opens roaches? You mean 1base roach? Roach bane allin? Can you be a little more specific?
open two base roach: hatch first into 18 gas, 32 warren into 10-12 roaches, attack immediately. The roaches come out around when hellions are coming near the zerg's base. I have been facing this a lot recentally and don't know what to do.
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How do I identify a Zerg 2 base allin from a 3 base allin?
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EPT
