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On March 19 2013 07:57 Spoink wrote:Show nested quote +
I'd like to make an addendum to pretty much all those builds, to the TvT and TvP builds, as while they're not bad per se I do not think they are optimal at all. In TvP, it is much better to open 12 rax 15 gas, reactor on rax, cc, factory, star port and then you do a 4 marine 2 widow mine drop to dry and deal economic damage to your opponent. From there you can throw down two more barracks, double engineering bay and all the other vital infrastructure for bio.
In TvT you generally want to open either reapers into widow mines for defence/drops, or you want to do the person above's opener. Both are fine, but in my opinion reaper expand into widow mines is far more versatile and safer.
I think yout TvP Build is also pretty solid but i use this build because lately i got 4gated(and general a lot allined) and with the around 5 defensive Widowmines a you basically cant lose. TvT is like you said more of a personal choice. I picked my build because you can do a ton of damage early on and finish the game with a Tank push if you want.
You can hold a 4 gate pretty easily with a reactor expand, assuming you scout it. The trouble with blindly getting 5 widow mines and not really being aggressive with them, is unless you go 3CC behind it your opponent ends up being pretty far ahead.
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On March 19 2013 08:04 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 07:57 Spoink wrote:
I'd like to make an addendum to pretty much all those builds, to the TvT and TvP builds, as while they're not bad per se I do not think they are optimal at all. In TvP, it is much better to open 12 rax 15 gas, reactor on rax, cc, factory, star port and then you do a 4 marine 2 widow mine drop to dry and deal economic damage to your opponent. From there you can throw down two more barracks, double engineering bay and all the other vital infrastructure for bio.
In TvT you generally want to open either reapers into widow mines for defence/drops, or you want to do the person above's opener. Both are fine, but in my opinion reaper expand into widow mines is far more versatile and safer.
I think yout TvP Build is also pretty solid but i use this build because lately i got 4gated(and general a lot allined) and with the around 5 defensive Widowmines a you basically cant lose. TvT is like you said more of a personal choice. I picked my build because you can do a ton of damage early on and finish the game with a Tank push if you want. You can hold a 4 gate pretty easily with a reactor expand, assuming you scout it. The trouble with blindly getting 5 widow mines and not really being aggressive with them, is unless you go 3CC behind it your opponent ends up being pretty far ahead.
Yeah thats true but i guess its also a question of playstyle and Metagame i guess your way will be more effective as soon as the metagame develops and less allins will be played! A 3rd CC is actualy a pretty good idea, i will try it!
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TvP Question - Platinum Terran
I find that unless I start a bunker a little after 4:00 minutes, the 2 stalker 1 mothership core poke kills me.
When scouting with my SCV--what is the tell that lets me know that this poke isn't coming allowing me to cheat and skip the bunker?
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On March 19 2013 08:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TvP Question - Platinum Terran
I find that unless I start a bunker a little after 4:00 minutes, the 2 stalker 1 mothership core poke kills me.
When scouting with my SCV--what is the tell that lets me know that this poke isn't coming allowing me to cheat and skip the bunker?
I would never skip the bunker. 
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TvP Question - Platinum Terran
I find that unless I start a bunker a little after 4:00 minutes, the 2 stalker 1 mothership core poke kills me.
When scouting with my SCV--what is the tell that lets me know that this poke isn't coming allowing me to cheat and skip the bunker?
You should build a reaper and not let him die. This gives you time to build a bunker because he should keep his stalker at home to defend reaper harass. Also you can see if he builds a zelot or a stalker with your first scv scout and then decide how fast you need that bunker
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At this point that MSC / 2-stalker stuff especially when made into an all-in with proxy stargate etc. is so prevalent (at least for me) I feel like not defaulting to 2 bunkers is asking for it.
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On March 19 2013 08:12 Thieving Magpie wrote:
TvP Question - Platinum Terran
I find that unless I start a bunker a little after 4:00 minutes, the 2 stalker 1 mothership core poke kills me.
When scouting with my SCV--what is the tell that lets me know that this poke isn't coming allowing me to cheat and skip the bunker?
I wall off with depos not barracks and put a bunker behind the wall, this while I safely expo and go into 1-1-1
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United Kingdom38201 Posts
An assorted bunch of rough buildorder sketches and notes from MLG
Disclaimer: Some were jotted down off vods, some while watching live. Supply counts (where present) should be taken as approximates. Some b/o's are more detailed and some are just very rough overviews, the more detailed, the more accurate. It was pretty much arbitrary, though come finals day I was more invested in watching than note taking. I'm also not particularly great, so take personal comments with a grain of salt.
TvZ
+ Show Spoiler +
Bomber
(12) rax, (13) gas, reapers, (20) cc
reactor on rax - factory - cc - hellions - stim - 2rax -tanks - 3rd and 4th gas - 9:20 double ebay
(12) rax, (16) cc, 2x rax, (25) gas, rax
c-shields -> 7.30 marine push
3rd CC - fact - stim - double ebay -tanks - naked port
Bomber seems to still play quite close to his WoL style, happily giving up map control to be defensive with earlier tanks and mixing in less common marine timings.
Bogus
(12) rax, (13) gas, Reaper, (20) CC, (21) fact
reactor on rax, swap for hellions.
tech lab on rax -> stim
(36) cc
Pressure with reapers and hellions (bogus wins a game vs leenock here)
2nd gas - 2x rax - 2x ebay - 2x gas - takes third and adds more rax
Moving to 4M
Does a similar build variation off CC first too.
Flash
(14) cc, rax - gas - fact - reactor on rax -> swap for hellions - tech lab on rax for stim - 3rd CC
2nd gas - double ebay (around 7.30) - couple of mines - 4rax - 2 gas.
Moving to 4M
Flash does this build a lot over the weekend, with a few different variations. His most common one skips the earlier mines, though that came back to haunt him in the finals.
Last
(12) proxy rax, (12) gas, reapers, cc, fact, cc, defensive mine, reactor on rax, second gas, double ebay, reactor hellions, 2 rax, starport, 2 more rax, into 4M play later
(14) cc, (14) rax, (15) gas, (21) fact, 3rd cc, marines and mines, (45) 2x rax, raw bio, double ebay 9:30, 4th gas -> 4m play
CC first - reactor fact + tech lab fact + nake fact = 3 fact blue flame hellion aggression. He does not do game ending damage, but takes a third behind it and transitions into full mech play. Wins one game, loses another (in the second he has double reactor fact)
TvP
+ Show Spoiler +
Common
(12) rax, (15) gas, [2] marines -> reactor on rax
(20) cc, (21) fact, (32) port, (48) second gas
marine, mine, medivac production, looking to drop with 4 marines + 2 mines but adjusting based on scouting.
This was by far the most common TvP build of the weekend with basically every Terran doing it at some point. It came up against blink all ins a couple of times and held well with the addition of fast siege tanks.
(12) rax, cc, oc, (23) 2 rax, (26) 2 gas
Standard transitions, with stim first and teching to medivacs
(14) cc, (15) rax, (16) rax, (26) rax, (27) 2x gas
Standard transitions, with stim first and teching to medivacs
Taeja
(12) gas, (13) rax, (16) fact, [1] marine -> reactor, (22) depot, (25) port
1 base marine/mine/medivac drop
6.30 cc, armoury -> hellbats and +1 mech
9m extra facts
The only attempt to move into mech vs Protoss all weekend, Sase crushed him with a gateway timing before he really got going.
Bogus
Reaper expand -> fact -> marine mine medivac drop -> into standard bio. Adds hellbats vs a zealot templar style composition.
1 base marine mine medivac drop -> expand -> into standard bio.
Same as most Terrans, but worth noting that he did mix in some hellbats with his bio (g2 vs Rain).
Polt
(12) rax, (13) gas, reaper [1?], CC, reactor, fact (defensive mines?), (36) 2x srax, starport.
(12) rax, (15) gas, marine + 1 reaper, cc, (23) fact, (28) 2 rax, (40) 2nd gas, pushes without medivacs but with mine support, starport behind it, later third.
A bit more unique in his constant usage of an early reaper vP. Polt tried to mix things up with some earlier timings using bio and mines, though without huge direct success.
Flash
1 rax into triple CC
This build lost to a 1 base oracle all in, but I thought it was worth mentioning that someone at least tried it.
Rax - Gas - Reaper - proxy factory -> lift into base to make mines
A cute build I thought we'd see more of, this instance didn't do too much damage (jjakji did something similar and got a good lead though) but Flash recovered with a double expand.
TvT
+ Show Spoiler +
Jjakji
depot, rax, (15) gas, cc, depot, fact, (24) depot, starport
swaps fact onto reactor for hellions [4], swaps off for tech lab and tanks
2nd gas 7.15, 2 more rax 8:30 - 9:00
He did this build twice vs MKP and both times was able to convincingly hold a drop into 1 base tank push build.
cc first, (15) rax, (16) rax, (22) gas x2
(32) fact -> tech lab, reactor + tech lab on rax -> c-shields
(38) rax #3
pushes with c-shields and tanks
(70ish) starport and 3rd gas behind it, 3rd CC, double ebay, more production etc.
A bit of an old fashioned build, but worked very well for him.
Flash
Proxy Marauder (beat a reaper expand)
Plays mech but gets worn down by manouverable bio
CC first into marine tank
expand 1/1/1 into a fast tank push (beat a mine drop)
Bogus
reaper expand (lost to proxy marauder)
Plays bio and is able to wear down a mech army
rax expand into marine hellion drop
1/1/1 mine drop into expand (lost to fast tank push)
A few personal thoughts going forward
+ Show Spoiler +
Beware the skies:
The reactor expo 1/1/1 mine drop is by far the most common TvP build right now, and as far as personal experience goes it works great. MC did however showcase some serious Stargate heat against it in front of 100k viewers or so, so you can probably expect more Protoss to be trying out his brutal oracle all ins or phoenix play. Bogus demonstrated that with a calm head you can handle harass play fine and still come out ahead, but you'll want to react to it quickly.
Greed's still good:
Despite all the improved aggressive options for T there were a large number of CC first and 1rax expo builds still doing the rounds. While a tournament is vastly different to your day to day ladder games, with bigger maps in the pool there's no need to completely forget about greedy play,
Know where you are weak:
Flash played like a god all weekend, only to come completely unstuck as Life picked apart his build (cc first and skipping mines/tanks) in the finals and exploited it spectacularly. We have great aggression now, and we can still be greedy, but there will always be things that can catch you by surprise if you aren't playing 100% safe.
Presence is powerful:
New medivacs are awesome, but you don't have to recklessly be dropping to take advantage of them. Even threatening the possibility can keep an opponent at a disadvantage, with Protoss players often feeling too unsafe to take their thirds till they had quite a bit of tech backing them up,
Mech aint meta:
Unless I'm miscounting, Korean mech picked up a whole 1 win this weekend, with losses vs all 3 races. It doesn't really speak to its practicality on a day to day basis, but it's fairly telling that for the most part it was avoided and did not perform particularly well when it did see use. The GSTL this week may hold a bit more information on where mech stands going forward with players preparing strategies for a single map/race.
Hopefully a few people can find something of use there
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Fantastic post Asha 
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Asha - stargate openers are soooo painful T_T
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How is it possible we still don't have anything similar to Zerg's Primer and Pro Q&A? Is this community really that Zerg centric?
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I see a lot of cc first builds: I didnt play hots much yet (about 20 games between gold and plat while trying to get back to diamond), but isnt the early game very vulnerable to 3rax all-ins or attacks +1 marines with 3 or 4 tanks, while you are still getting your tech going?
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On March 19 2013 16:22 kollin wrote:
Yup, pretty much :/
Didn't you take over the wol terran help me thread ?. what about iamjeffery or thedwf, none of them want to take over this thread ?
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can i get some damned replays Ive been searching everywhere for some good terran replays and i can't find a good place to watch them. I thought MLG would release replays but apparently they don't do that anymore. Anyone have some. I need to steal some damned builds as im lost in all match ups.
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I'd really want to see some replays from Morrow. As far as I know, he playes some nice mech macro games and there is like none of those avaiable. Also, HTOMario playes really well mech GM level, replay pack would be really appriciated. There seems to be lack of replays overall for Sc2. Like, I don't know, it seems that because of streams and vods, tournament organizers don't care about replays anymore. I remember I used to download every major tournament replays from WC3 and then just go through it to find out results. It was such cool and entertaining. I really think SC2 is lacking here.
Concern might be that by releasing replays, players risk being studied, but really, it's easy for progamer to just go through vod, or see on stream exactly, how certain player playes, he doesn't need replay. But for lower league players and fans, it is really good to just watch replays, copy build order and those kinda players are not dangerous for progamers in any way. Am I missing something?
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i believe http://drop.sc/ has some replays not exactly sure of what standard, but i see a few names i know their.
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On March 19 2013 17:16 uNreaLTT wrote:i believe http://drop.sc/ has some replays not exactly sure of what standard, but i see a few names i know their.
Yeah, there are tons of replays, but in no way it is consistent. You have to be lucky to find what you want there.
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EPT
