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On March 31 2013 18:55 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 18:43 LardMaster wrote:On March 31 2013 18:26 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Actually I LOVE to mech in TvZ; I very rarely go bio in that matchup :D
But with that being said, I'm quite lost with regard to how to mech properly in TvT. I would love to try out some builds and learn though. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405574This build was used the other day in the GSTL to great effect, and it's very strong at the moment. Can lead into a good mech game by just expanding and throwing down a couple more factories; you already have an armory as well. You can also do a gas first marine mine drop, into delayed cloak banshees. This is strong because it is extremely safe and has the potential to end the game immediately. Your opponent is forced to use scans on the mines, and therefore will not have scans to use for the banshees.
That sounds really cool :D Plus from the 1/1/1 you can transition into almost anything. The only problem I can see is if you do no damage you are behind, but I think you'd have to mess up really bad to do no damage. Also an oracle might cause problems, especially if it comes right after your medivac and marines leave your base, but a fast oracle is a problem for most builds  . Thanks Kollin 
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On March 31 2013 19:21 LardMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 18:55 kollin wrote:On March 31 2013 18:43 LardMaster wrote:On March 31 2013 18:26 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Actually I LOVE to mech in TvZ; I very rarely go bio in that matchup :D
But with that being said, I'm quite lost with regard to how to mech properly in TvT. I would love to try out some builds and learn though. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405574This build was used the other day in the GSTL to great effect, and it's very strong at the moment. Can lead into a good mech game by just expanding and throwing down a couple more factories; you already have an armory as well. You can also do a gas first marine mine drop, into delayed cloak banshees. This is strong because it is extremely safe and has the potential to end the game immediately. Your opponent is forced to use scans on the mines, and therefore will not have scans to use for the banshees. That sounds really cool :D Plus from the 1/1/1 you can transition into almost anything. The only problem I can see is if you do no damage you are behind, but I think you'd have to mess up really bad to do no damage. Also an oracle might cause problems, especially if it comes right after your medivac and marines leave your base, but a fast oracle is a problem for most builds . Thanks Kollin
I wouldn't necessarily recommend this build in TvP (though I don't see why it couldn't be effective), but in TvT a lot of players are doing variants of it in the GSTL.
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I've been experimenting vP for ages, and I just scan his army occasionally and mix in either ghosts, Ravens or Thors if I need em and its working really well :D Thanks HTOMario :D
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On March 31 2013 18:55 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 18:43 LardMaster wrote:On March 31 2013 18:26 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Actually I LOVE to mech in TvZ; I very rarely go bio in that matchup :D
But with that being said, I'm quite lost with regard to how to mech properly in TvT. I would love to try out some builds and learn though. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405574This build was used the other day in the GSTL to great effect, and it's very strong at the moment. Can lead into a good mech game by just expanding and throwing down a couple more factories; you already have an armory as well. You can also do a gas first marine mine drop, into delayed cloak banshees. This is strong because it is extremely safe and has the potential to end the game immediately. Your opponent is forced to use scans on the mines, and therefore will not have scans to use for the banshees.
Any gasfirst build is nono atm due to how common reapers are :/
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is it now the standard to go for 4 factories of 2 bases instead of 3 like it was in WoL the case.
I always fload minerals after i grab my 3rd base. The same question about the total amount of factories.
Should i build 2 more to a total of 6 Factories even with double upgrades and the gameplan to transition into heavy sky with first raven/viking and later bc's?
And can i build my 2 additional CC's (total of 5) at the 14 Minute mark like in Wol as well when i go for 4 factories?
I'm kind of lost because my spending skill was Master in TvZ in WoL and in Hots only Plat/Diamond.
Hope you can help me
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Really looking forward to Flash playing in Code S this season. I bet we will see some nice mech plays, if he dares to do so! :D
Especially with a banshee opening after CC first. Love that build.
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So Appolo did an interview with David Kim and they talk a little about mech. All this talk of "we don't know if we want mech to be as good as bio" makes me think there might be some internal debate between the devs. Someone there REALLY hates the Siege Tank and the defensive positional play i think.
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On April 09 2013 22:55 saaaa wrote:is it now the standard to go for 4 factories of 2 bases instead of 3 like it was in WoL the case. I always fload minerals after i grab my 3rd base. The same question about the total amount of factories. Should i build 2 more to a total of 6 Factories even with double upgrades and the gameplan to transition into heavy sky with first raven/viking and later bc's? And can i build my 2 additional CC's (total of 5) at the 14 Minute mark like in Wol as well when i go for 4 factories? I'm kind of lost because my spending skill was Master in TvZ in WoL and in Hots only Plat/Diamond. Hope you can help me
anyone?
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i found that with two base , it's good to go with 4 fact instead of 3, 2 reactor and 2 tech lab, then with 3 base, make them six(the other two with 2 tech lab), and make more cc
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i stream master level mech play at twitch.tv/bootybothered.
TvZ i do a hellbat timing aimed to deny the zergs 3rd while i go full mech on 3 bases behind that
TvP i go 1 rax expand into a 4 widow mine drop while going 2 base full mech behind it. i deny the toss's 3rd while taking mine.
ghosts are extremely important if the game.goes to 3base vs 3base and
sometimes i have transition into mass air and thors if the toss goes mass air to deal with mech.
TvT. full mech with agressive hellbat drops
i can upload replays / post builds if anyones interested
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On April 11 2013 03:10 Sapphire.lux wrote:So Appolo did an interview with David Kim and they talk a little about mech. All this talk of "we don't know if we want mech to be as good as bio" makes me think there might be some internal debate between the devs. Someone there REALLY hates the Siege Tank and the defensive positional play i think.
Yes, listening to that interview at those parts was cringe worthy and basically a slap in the face to a lot of Terrans. They basically gave up or have something against mech tvp being possible which is quite lulzworthy.
The problem is, their faulty logic. Instead of making the siege tank not suck in TvP, they scapegoat the entire situation claiming "they don't want stale defensive turtle play." Now, the problem here is if they had actually worked on making mech TvP viable, a widow mine that didn't cost supply but was proportionally weaker, a siege tank that didn't get shit on by literally every Protoss unit...etc. then this "turtle stagnant defensive play" that they're so afraid of wouldn't come to pass because it would actually allow Terrans using mech in TvP to ATTACK protoss.
The way it is right now, because of their development mindset, they are not doing jack shiot with mech TvP, and in it's current state it's very difficult to "attack" and have high paced games with mech TvP because the tank is so terrible you're essentially forced to turtle to 5 bases into a super "death ball" army.
If the tank didn't suck so much and was not so hard countered...and if it actually mattered that it was up a ramp or in position...you would see much more high paced mech TvP because Terrans could commit tanks to different locations on the map.
As is, you are currently forced to maintain ONE DEATHBALL because you 100% cannot split up siege tanks to different spots on the map, that's almost autoloss.
It's a catch-22, they are afraid of the turtle deathball stagnant mech style, but then they literally stop development and don't give mech TvPers a siege tank that can actually hold any spots on the map or be effective vs Protoss until you have that deathball established.
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This is to everybody out there, if "the iloveoov build" doesn't ring a bell, you can see the liquipedia page on it right here.
Personally, I love trying to recreate a BW style in starcraft 2 whenever possible, especially when it comes to using mech in TvP.
If the liquipedia page isn't immediately clear and you're unfamiliar with BW, the iloveoov style can be best summarized today as using Vultures(Hellions) and Spider Mines(Widow Mines) for aggressive harassment, including an early starport for drop potential, to buy time to expand to a fast 3 bases. Obviously, adapting a BW style to a starcraft 2 game has to consider the differences between games, so I created a general outline for how it works in starcraft 2:
1. Fast reactor factory
2. Construction of natural expand CC ASAP after the first 150 to 200 gas is harvested
3. Hellion, Widow Mines and Starport are used very aggressively to restrict protoss and give time for Terran to macro up.
I've made my own attempts at executing an "iloveoov build style to TvP mech" and I've liked the results compared to any other attempt at using mech in TvP! The execution is exactly as you should think.
1. To have a reactor factory ready as quickly as possible without cutting SCV production, you would start gas at 11 food, delay construction of the barracks, and skip marines entirely. Once the barracks finishes, there should be 150 gas to start construction of a reactor and a factory. SCFusion supports this if you're looking for getting out widow mines and hellions and expand ASAP.
2. You should move SCVs from gas to minerals to start the first CC.
3. Facing widow mines without detection is very intimidating. Facing Hellion runby if they move out is also intimidating. It's possible to kill stalker pushes before they ever make it across the map with a couple mine shots and using the reduced stalker count and AoE damage from Hellions and Widow Mines alone.
Quick Q/A
Protoss is likely to start 1 gate core robo anyway, how would this reliance on widow mines work with detection so early?
Originally I assumed that getting siege tanks would be the sensible reaction once protoss gets detection. This meant getting additional factories sooner rather than a starport. It quickly resulted in being busted with immortals and detection by 3 gate robo every single game since that's essentially exactly the sort of response aggressive widow mines and hellions should trigger. In addition, forced to turtle on two bases is a defeat in itself- the build wants to accomplish 3 bases quickly.
When I continued to use the starport, however, I found things worked better. Widow mine and Hellion drops into the main while re-mining up the Protoss exit from his natural would delay any protoss push longer as they moved their detection and units back in response. Viking and scans could snipe Observers, keeping the Robotics Bay busy building more Observers than Immortals, and delaying a Protoss push.
What about Proxy Pylon 4 gate, Oracles, DTs, Warp Prisms, Void Ray, Phoenix and more?
The iloveoov build anything from starcraft: brood war is the origin of the 1/1/1(iloveoov also helped Fantasy make the TvZ version of the 1/1/1 aka the Fantasy Build). This means it enjoys the same flexibility that 1/1/1 is known for. In a practical sense, this build keeps you well informed on Protoss unit composition and tech- the map is open for Terran to spot hidden pylons, warp prisms, or protoss air- an engineering bay, turrets, and a handful of widow mines can be enormously cost effective against any air or DTs. Vikings are a very easy to use deterrent to warp prisms, Hellions can move very quickly in response to Zealots, well positioned Siege Tanks and mines can ruin Blink Stalkers.
Doesn't mech still suck?
It kinda does. I've been rolled enough times by enough different combinations of protoss units to almost give up. But I've been rolled with bio too. It makes me think it isn't Mech that's any weaker to the Protoss deathball than Bio. I think Bio has been more successful because it's been easier to establish an aggressive pacing to out-macro the Protoss deathball when using bio.
On April 12 2013 03:18 avilo wrote:in its current state it's very difficult to "attack" and have high paced games with mech TvP.
Sup! Maybe with an "iloveoov build style" approach to mech, Terran can still establish an aggressive pacing to out-macro Protoss, even though they're using mech.
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So i've missed the last few days of GSL and Proleague. Any mech games outside of TvT?
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think the most difficult thing in tvp mech now is to find an optimal opening and then figure out how much stuff to build etc, i see too many people lose because their mass tank army gets obliterated by immortals. strelok and bunny showed some interesting builds in wcs eu althought im not so sure how they deal with really strong early agression.
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On April 17 2013 22:04 PredY wrote:
think the most difficult thing in tvp mech now is to find an optimal opening and then figure out how much stuff to build etc, i see too many people lose because their mass tank army gets obliterated by immortals. strelok and bunny showed some interesting builds in wcs eu althought im not so sure how they deal with really strong early agression.
Yes, that is the most difficult part for sure. I've been exclusively mech TvP again, and i know others are still attempting it as well.
What i've found is a reaper into 111 with any type of medivac into cloak banshee is one of the best mech openers because you have a way to pressure Protoss's probe count and still defend all-ins with reaper/scv scouting.
Also, many, many hellbat drops are a key to getting mech TvP to work, but that is something most of us already knew - mech TvP relies on killing a lot of workers through hellion harrass/banshee harrass otherwise Protoss can do whatever they want.
I saw a bunch of the posted bunny/strelok/krass games...pretty good mech TvPs but in a bunch of those it looked like the Protosses were all 1 gate expanding for the most part, very few all-ins. In particular I saw strelok do a 15 CC into 1 rax and then 1 refinery...literally any all-in from Protoss kills this...but if the game goes on past this point then through harrass mech TvP is looking a bit better lately.
Most elite Protoss vs mech players will abuse DTs, warp prisms, immortals and stargate tech + all-ins as openers that end up not being all-in because of doing massive damage. Didn't really see a lot of P abuse in those WCS EU games, a lot could have to do with mech being so rarely seen that the protosses didn't react as efficiently as they could.
The game that comes to mind that I saw was strelok vs finale on newkirk. Finale adjusted from the first game and began immortal production much sooner in this game instead of building so many collosus. And strelok actually had a huge lead and at one point i saw almost 170 supply mech Terran get crushed by like a 120 supply Protoss (lol).
I do think ghosts are necessary with mech, they were in wings of liberty, but the optimal timing of when to start such things is not so mapped out yet, even for really experienced mech tvp users.
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@avilo
haha totally remember the second game of strelok vs finale, thought that was really good "counter" build from the P, otherwise agree completely - gotta try the cloak banshee (althought a lot of EU P like to go stargate). I personally like to get aggresive early with hellions and get blueflame + transformation asap, which means i can be agressive early on with mass hellion and then use them to defend any pushes. still haven't really put too much effort into mech yet
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larse thanks for finding those vods, they were added! If anyone else has a good collection of TvT/TvZ mech vods, that would be greatly appreciated.
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On April 18 2013 07:23 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 22:04 PredY wrote:
think the most difficult thing in tvp mech now is to find an optimal opening and then figure out how much stuff to build etc, i see too many people lose because their mass tank army gets obliterated by immortals. strelok and bunny showed some interesting builds in wcs eu althought im not so sure how they deal with really strong early agression. Yes, that is the most difficult part for sure. I've been exclusively mech TvP again, and i know others are still attempting it as well. What i've found is a reaper into 111 with any type of medivac into cloak banshee is one of the best mech openers because you have a way to pressure Protoss's probe count and still defend all-ins with reaper/scv scouting. Also, many, many hellbat drops are a key to getting mech TvP to work, but that is something most of us already knew - mech TvP relies on killing a lot of workers through hellion harrass/banshee harrass otherwise Protoss can do whatever they want. I saw a bunch of the posted bunny/strelok/krass games...pretty good mech TvPs but in a bunch of those it looked like the Protosses were all 1 gate expanding for the most part, very few all-ins. In particular I saw strelok do a 15 CC into 1 rax and then 1 refinery...literally any all-in from Protoss kills this...but if the game goes on past this point then through harrass mech TvP is looking a bit better lately. Most elite Protoss vs mech players will abuse DTs, warp prisms, immortals and stargate tech + all-ins as openers that end up not being all-in because of doing massive damage. Didn't really see a lot of P abuse in those WCS EU games, a lot could have to do with mech being so rarely seen that the protosses didn't react as efficiently as they could. The game that comes to mind that I saw was strelok vs finale on newkirk. Finale adjusted from the first game and began immortal production much sooner in this game instead of building so many collosus. And strelok actually had a huge lead and at one point i saw almost 170 supply mech Terran get crushed by like a 120 supply Protoss (lol). I do think ghosts are necessary with mech, they were in wings of liberty, but the optimal timing of when to start such things is not so mapped out yet, even for really experienced mech tvp users.
This matches my experience as well. Mech in TvP "works" mainly because of two factors:
- massive economic advantage, obtainable through:
- greed, for instance metagaming a passive MSC expand with CC rax gas, or teching Hellbats drops behind one Bunker and a couple of Mines, etc.;
- killing mass Probes with harass, e. g. Hellbats drops, BFH raids, etc.;
- or both.
- Protoss players failing to adapt and having really poor answers:
- many of them are unwilling to unplug the anti bio play autopilot;
- or they react too late to mech play;
- or they resort to hackneyed tactics such as massing 10+ Immortals on dual robotics, etc.
Which, of course, means mech technically does not work, because defending Probes only comes down to having 2+ Cannons per mineral line to shut down all forms of mech mild harass, and thinking a bit to find various ways to exploit mech's numerous weaknesses is quite simple.
Just like in WoL, the best way to play mech in TvP—outside of not playing it—is probably ghostmech, but then the amount of units (with many of them being gas-intensive, and naturally slow to produce) required to deal with Protoss armies quickly becomes ridiculous... If Protoss incorporates Stargate units you end up with Ghosts/Hellbats/Mines/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens, and the mere enunciation of such a unit composition says everything (and even with all of that you're not even guaranteed good trades...).
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I find mech to be very viable on small maps and tight windows (for max AoE) where I can easily secure a third. That's where you can turtle up a bit. Immortals really can't bust you early if you have a couple of bunkers and mines, with tanks well out of initial range. It's also built on harass to get ahead early and secure the third base. I have yet to see a toss consistently deal with marine/helion/widow mine. Then you transition to HTOMario style with all of the above. The three base build consists of:
3 reactored factory: 300/100 per minute for window mines, 800 for hellbats
2 factory tech: Tanks or Thors or both... ~450/184 per minute
Rax: Constant Ghosts: 300/150 a minute
Tech Starport: Raven/Viking/Medivac (reactionary)
You can cut a Teched factory for an additional reactored starport for air toss. You should still be fine as he will be light on stalkers and immortal if that's the case. It's not mech in the BW sense, but it is effective. But on the large maps where the protoss is in a cross position and can consistently re-max, it proves too daunting and I'd favor bio in these instances. You simply cannot anticipate what the protoss player is re-maxing with to create a balanced mech composition.
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EPT
