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On August 11 2014 02:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Do you have any links to those HTOMario games? Would be cool to watch.
Also, does anyone remember JJakji's ooooooold 2 base thor/banshee/hellion allin TvP? It feels like it should be so much better in HotS with hellbats, and Thors now auto-targetting air, and widow mines making templar openers semi-extinct.
I think the biggest problem atm with the Jjackji allin is that it was relying a LOT on the cloakshee opening (slowing down protoss + smooth transition into thor due to double gas early, and able to defend most protoss stuff in the early game), which is now basically extinct. It is extremely hard to have something equivalent with the ability to slow the protoss, to defend possible attacks early, AND to smoothly transition into a second base + your force for the attack.
The composition is extremely strong, because of the things you talked about, but mainly in defense : between what i said, and also protoss way greedier builds (and, so, the lack of ability to slow them down), and photon overcharge being a non negligible help, it is hard to have an offensive timing as strong as before versus a protoss who's going to be free to do almost whatever he wants to be ready for the attack (or being slightly annoyed by your harass, which won't include units useful for the push, delay your transition towards the composition, and can be not damaging enough).
I had the same problem in terms of openings and transition with my old TvP Mech macro opening from WoL, which was some kind of tank expand into thor / banshee to defend 2 bases (and grab a third instead of going allin) : i can't do it in HotS simply because there is no safe way to get up 2 gas early enough while defending all the protoss stuff (or having the possibility to, since especially oracles requires quite specific answers) while getting your expansion ready.
Also, if you want to review Mario replays :
http://sc2replaystats.com/account/display/1730
he uploads all of them
On August 11 2014 07:29 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Doesn't Storm just kill that mass WM play?
Basically a matter of control, using tanks and splitting well widow mines to minimize damage. Also protoss tends to charge in before the storms kill the mines, for some reason...
Personally i have mixed feelings about tank/mine play. I hated it before the patch, but i tried it since, and it now seems kinda cool, even though it is.. weird to play. My favorite style remain my good old thor/Tank/Ghost/Hellbat/Air, but widow mines as your "reactor units" seems extremely good nowadays and i'll clearly use it more often
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Yeah it would be nice to see some more games of this WM Tank style to see how he deals with Storms. Back when i used to play i felt like every time Protoss realised he was up against many mines, he would just Storm the crap out of them or used Colossus to clear any mines that are not covered by sufficient Tank fire. I came to the conclusion that WMs are best used to rush in to the Immortal/ Archon army during battle (kind of like Banelings against Marines), but i'd love to see WMs used more like actual mines.
I'm keeping my eye on this!
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On August 12 2014 04:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Yeah it would be nice to see some more games of this WM Tank style to see how he deals with Storms. Back when i used to play i felt like every time Protoss realised he was up against many mines, he would just Storm the crap out of them or used Colossus to clear any mines that are not covered by sufficient Tank fire. I came to the conclusion that WMs are best used to rush in to the Immortal/ Archon army during battle (kind of like Banelings against Marines), but i'd love to see WMs used more like actual mines.
I'm keeping my eye on this!
Storm is one of the the reasons I go Mine/Tank/Viking instead of just Mine/Tank. As long as you some Viking is front of your army it is hard for Protoss to storm your WM without getting sniped by Tanks. Especially since I snipe his observers all the time so it hard for him to keep track of where all the mines are.
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when playing mech in tvz, is there any way to move out of your base when your opponent plays ultra heavy?
i have made the experience that on open field ultras just destroy anything the mech player can make, even thor heavy armies get just destroyed when the ultras get a good surround. when he adds hydras to his army it`s even worse because you have to make many tanks to deal with them which get roflstomped by the ultras.
i really enjoy playing mech but its not fun when you have to turtle the whole game in your base until the zerg runs out of meaningful units.
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On August 13 2014 23:56 Charoisaur wrote:
when playing mech in tvz, is there any way to move out of your base when your opponent plays ultra heavy?
i have made the experience that on open field ultras just destroy anything the mech player can make, even thor heavy armies get just destroyed when the ultras get a good surround. when he adds hydras to his army it`s even worse because you have to make many tanks to deal with them which get roflstomped by the ultras.
i really enjoy playing mech but its not fun when you have to turtle the whole game in your base until the zerg runs out of meaningful units.
I don't think there is a way to be aggressive or to even leave your base. If the map allows, I block all entrances to my base with buildings and defend. Because even if u trade somewhat good he will remax in seconds and totally wreck you.
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I want to update the OP since now but... I can't edit :o
I'm gonna add:
TvP Guide - Heavy thor
Hammer TvP Mech
Edit: Done
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On July 22 2014 03:55 Lyyna wrote:The op hasn't been updated in a while, it seems. And his "rules of mech" are far from being any kind of definitive thing on the subject. Just his own, and there is no real point in any every single mech player own sets of rules into something,unless it is a thread named "set of rules of every mech player in the world" Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 03:43 KingofGods wrote:
I used to go mech tvz until I lost too often to mutas. Bio doesn't deal with mass mutas very well either but at least you have a chance to stream across the map and do damage. Sadly yeha, they're a big problem with mech - the "best" thing to do finally is to mass turrets are sensitive locations (like 10+ turrets) with mines and a thor. . . and then abuse sensor tower to reposition the air fleet.
My Rules of Mech are objective and benefit anyone that is learning mech or wants to learn from experience of thousands of mech games played instead of losing games because they did not know such information.
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On August 11 2014 07:29 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Doesn't Storm just kill that mass WM play?
Mass mine is terrible vs P, as is anything that goes past 5 factories because Protoss can indeed just storm+immortal or better yet, just immediately throw up 2-3 stargates and mass pure tempest + whatever ground they had, and then you get obliterated because of being too far behind vs tempest accumulation.
I remember playing a lot of mine+tank during the beta, husky even casted a game of me vs whitera and vs someone else (abomb)? It only worked decent then because everyone including myself still sucked at HOTS.
Mech will never be truly viable versus Protoss until immortals are toned down vs mech, and tempests are increased in supply imo back to what they were during the beta (6 supply). And when i say Mech, i mean tank/factory based mech. You can play mech right now but it has to be in conjunction with mass raven to even have a chance.
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On August 15 2014 01:23 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 03:55 Lyyna wrote:The op hasn't been updated in a while, it seems. And his "rules of mech" are far from being any kind of definitive thing on the subject. Just his own, and there is no real point in any every single mech player own sets of rules into something,unless it is a thread named "set of rules of every mech player in the world" On July 22 2014 03:43 KingofGods wrote:
I used to go mech tvz until I lost too often to mutas. Bio doesn't deal with mass mutas very well either but at least you have a chance to stream across the map and do damage. Sadly yeha, they're a big problem with mech - the "best" thing to do finally is to mass turrets are sensitive locations (like 10+ turrets) with mines and a thor. . . and then abuse sensor tower to reposition the air fleet. My Rules of Mech are objective and benefit anyone that is learning mech or wants to learn from experience of thousands of mech games played instead of losing games because they did not know such information.
whatever you can call "mine", unless you're an indisputed korean pro, isn't definitive, especially in your case. Your rules are your rules, and they're nothing objective nor definitive... as shown by the fact that they're nothing constantly shown by highest level mech play, and by the fact that a tons of players with ranking slightly below / equivalent / higher than you aren't using them or anything close. They're your rules, don't try once again to shove it down everyone's throat and act like the only mech reference.
On August 15 2014 01:26 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 07:29 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Doesn't Storm just kill that mass WM play? Mass mine is terrible vs P, as is anything that goes past 5 factories because Protoss can indeed just storm+immortal or better yet, just immediately throw up 2-3 stargates and mass pure tempest + whatever ground they had, and then you get obliterated because of being too far behind vs tempest accumulation. I remember playing a lot of mine+tank during the beta, husky even casted a game of me vs whitera and vs someone else (abomb)? It only worked decent then because everyone including myself still sucked at HOTS. Mech will never be truly viable versus Protoss until immortals are toned down vs mech, and tempests are increased in supply imo back to what they were during the beta (6 supply). And when i say Mech, i mean tank/factory based mech. You can play mech right now but it has to be in conjunction with mass raven to even have a chance.
The subject there wasn't actually mass mines, but the mine / tanks / whatever mainly used by Mario, which actually demolished any kind of immortal-based play without any hope for the protoss, and the addition of vikings, which are usually the "whatever" allows to prevent a too dangerous tempest switch.
Not the most solid or developped thing, but the tank / mine combo, especially since the up, isn't something to forget instantly.
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On August 15 2014 01:26 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2014 07:29 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Doesn't Storm just kill that mass WM play? Mass mine is terrible vs P, as is anything that goes past 5 factories because Protoss can indeed just storm+immortal or better yet, just immediately throw up 2-3 stargates and mass pure tempest + whatever ground they had, and then you get obliterated because of being too far behind vs tempest accumulation. I remember playing a lot of mine+tank during the beta, husky even casted a game of me vs whitera and vs someone else (abomb)? It only worked decent then because everyone including myself still sucked at HOTS. Mech will never be truly viable versus Protoss until immortals are toned down vs mech, and tempests are increased in supply imo back to what they were during the beta (6 supply). And when i say Mech, i mean tank/factory based mech. You can play mech right now but it has to be in conjunction with mass raven to even have a chance.
Given that Mario is beating Protoss players with ease that you would have a lot of trouble against -- to the point that you've largely stopped Meching vs Protoss -- I think people can use common sense to see who has more success with their Mech vs Protoss.
But to answer the original question, it's a matter of positioning. Mario has stated that you have to be more careful with pushing, but the range of Tanks offers some protection vs HTs and Colossi. Mario has also shown splitting off small groups of units to combat HTs.
The above point about Vikings also helps vs Colossus play. Mario has also made Banshees vs Colossi.
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On August 12 2014 04:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Yeah it would be nice to see some more games of this WM Tank style to see how he deals with Storms. Back when i used to play i felt like every time Protoss realised he was up against many mines, he would just Storm the crap out of them or used Colossus to clear any mines that are not covered by sufficient Tank fire. I came to the conclusion that WMs are best used to rush in to the Immortal/ Archon army during battle (kind of like Banelings against Marines), but i'd love to see WMs used more like actual mines.
I'm keeping my eye on this!
Here are some replays of the Mine/Tank videos he made, and also some others, including one vs Blink Stalker/Colossus. Notice how he uses positioning and timing to help combat HTs.
I still haven't yet seen a game where the Protoss actually can get some good Storms off vs Mario using this style, but I would imagine that the same logic used against Colossi applies as far as positioning with Tanks and pushing slower is concerned.
Replay from Mario's First Mine/Tank Video
Replay from Mario's Second Mine/Tank Video
Replay of a Different Opener for a 2-Player Map, still into Mine/Tank
Replay of Combatting Colossus/Blink Stalker, Opponent Makes HTs Which Mostly just Fight Banshees
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thank NDBSC2, will add in OP later
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I veto'd catallena, merry go around, and foxtrot but Nimbus is giving me lots of trouble securing that 4th because how large the space is and me not being able to split my army and all. How is merry go around?
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On August 18 2014 15:32 jinjin5000 wrote:
I veto'd catallena, merry go around, and foxtrot but Nimbus is giving me lots of trouble securing that 4th because how large the space is and me not being able to split my army and all. How is merry go around?
I Have the same maps vetoed and also problems with nimbus. But I prefer Nimbus over merry because you can atleast easily secure 3 bases.
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Done  Thank you for the guide
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thanks NDBSC2 for those links!
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Done!
Thanks NDBSC2 and Meavis
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EPT
