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On February 18 2013 09:11 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2013 07:12 llIH wrote:On February 18 2013 06:24 Qikz wrote: What the heck are you guys doing against zerg lategame? I'll have nearly maxed ups against his low ups on whatever he makes either broodlord/corrupter or pure ultra and I still straight up go and die and I'm so confused as to what on earth I'm supposed to do.
On the bigger maps I actually find zerg much easier to deal with, but stuff like Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak feel really hard to survive the relentless assaults of the ultras and broodlords. Star Station depending on spawn positions seems completely the opposite as if they go broodlords they're so slow I get map dominance and Ultras on that map take a while to actually get into your base. Sounds like you are having problems dealing with the Zerg's transition? It's not so much the transition. It's the bit after when he keeps throwing units upon units at me and I just can't produce fast enough off of 3/4 bases depending on how badly it's been going to counter the constant switching. That and when they get an obscene amount of corrupters I find it really hard to even get enough vikings to dent the ball. I should probably start looking into just getting ravens for HSM much quicker.
Perhaps you could try out the high impact missles on the Thors. I am not sure it will work. Just a suggestion. I don't like thors - they are too slow and big for me to handle.
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Qikz you definitely need to incorporate ravens quicker, as their sheer supply efficiency alone makes them very worth it. Due to the fact HSM is worth multiple vikings, it allows you to have a much bigger standing ground army.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 18 2013 10:34 kollin wrote: Qikz you definitely need to incorporate ravens quicker, as their sheer supply efficiency alone makes them very worth it. Due to the fact HSM is worth multiple vikings, it allows you to have a much bigger standing ground army.
Thanks for the tip. I didn't realise they changed HSM to have splash again. Those dirty zergs and their dirty hive tech are being punished for clumping now. It's almost like irradiate, but you can't eraser it <3
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I miss erasererering
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I think I have gotten worse at Terran from playing Zerg and Protoss for 2 weeks now. Damnit.
What are optimal mech armies vs Archon/HT? Some times they mix in 2-3 colossus too. but I can handle that fine.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 19 2013 23:11 llIH wrote: I think I have gotten worse at Terran from playing Zerg and Protoss for 2 weeks now. Damnit.
What are optimal mech armies vs Archon/HT? Some times they mix in 2-3 colossus too. but I can handle that fine.
Just archon/high templar with some collosus?
I'd personally say tank/hellbat with ghost/viking support deals with that pretty handily as long as you don't stack your tanks and hellbats up. You use the hellbats to soak his storms and soak as much as possible of the archon damage up while you EMP and your tanks kill everything.
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Ok. Thanks.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Since a lot of people on stream chats seem to be having trouble finding an opening against protoss in TvP mech, I thought I'd throw my opening into the mix. (I was diamond in WoL so not a perfect player, but it should work at any level)
12rax > 13 gas > depot > factory > techlab/depot > 1 tank w/ bunker at ramp (this depends on what you scout, but I always want at least one tank) >CC >>
- If 1 base 2 gas and no third pylon scouted
> Engineering bay and 1 turret at ramp / continue tank production >>*
- If 1 base 2 gas and third pylon
> Scan to see what his tech is > Engineering bay if Stargate or Twilight for turret at mineral line/ramp (for DTs/void rays) >>*
2 more factories before third CC (better to be alive and behind than dead) > double armory
- If nexus first and or 1 gate expand
> starport with widowmines (mine drop at his bases as his detection is delayed) > Third CC > go up to 3 fact > double armory > later engineering bay.
Also going a bit later in the game, if I see he goes for a third early, I'll go up to 5 (/w Starport if Stargate for vikings) or 6 factories (if Robo) get the Hellbat upgrade quickly and push with some turrets (for detection and void rays if hidden) and tanks/hellbats, it should come out at the time 1/1 finishes and although I've not done it since the release, during the Beta it seemed like a very strong push which toss had a very hard time stopping. Once I kill the third nexus I just fall back and take my own third and go in with an advantage to late game.
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HOTS mech is worse than WOL. So hard to win mech TVZ, the longer the game, the harder it becomes to win.
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yea gotta say I think hots mech is a bit worse, but I'm unsure if bio mine will turn into bio mine tank. hopefully anyway =]
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Hello, is Thor, hellbat, marine and Viking/Raven viable versus protoss? Obviously if he is going mass immortal I cut Thors for Marines & Banshees. Notice tankless composition...
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On March 18 2013 10:22 bearhug wrote: HOTS mech is worse than WOL. So hard to win mech TVZ, the longer the game, the harder it becomes to win.
You must hit before vipers are out or go bio, which is the new TvZ meta at this moment. Bio is very mobile and helps mitigate the effects of cloud to a certain extent. As for mech alone, having up to 10 vikings are needed if you want to play against viper, sniping them before they can lay cloud is a must. Even so, i feel that bio is a superior comp against hive tech in nearly every scenario.
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Going with heavy mine is key against Vipers.. You could probably go just mine/tank and do well vs hydra/roach/viper.. You cant just mass mech units, move across the map and siege in front of Zergs natural.. Ill upload some replays later if anyone is interested.
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I am going join discussion as I have been playing mech exclusively as diamond terran.
In TvP I have been having success with 2 base push with expansion behind it. The push itself consists of hellbats, few tanks , mines, ravens and vikings + whatever is left of early game. I planned this push on the base of denying a third base which it does quite well. A guide for anyone who is interested.
+ Show Spoiler + Build for 2 base push
- 11 gas -> 13 rax - 16 OC - Reaper and after 100 gas factory
Reapers job is to scout in the early game so I try not to lose until I know what is going on. You may want to suicide it to scout the base but I prefer it to scout the map.
- After reaper continuous marine production and few mines.
Wall at your ramp is fairly necessary to survive poke with just widow mines and marines.
Of course now my decision making depends on what I scout so if Protoss stays on one base I build engineering bay for turrets and bunkers if some kind of push is coming.
- When factory is on its way add second gas. - When factory is finished build a starport.
When starport is finished I build a tech lab for Ravens but you may want to build viking straight away for possible oracle . - Build CC when you can afford it and set it up when you feel safe to move out to your expansion. -Build depending on what your gas needs are and what you scout mix of ravens and vikings. I usually end up with 2-3 ravens and 2-3 vikings with push timing. - After about 4 marines and raven in production I start building reactor with my barracks for factory. - Start building second factory and add third one when you can. - When reactor is done move one of you factories with it and start building second reactor for your third factory. - Around 8-9 minutes add tech lab to one of your factories and start build at least 2 tanks for the push. - Continuously build hellions and few mines . Around this time you should add your armory for hellbat upgrade. Of course you could build before any hellion production to build hellbats immediately but I like to deny scouting with my mobile hellions and force protoss to build stalkers for mobile hellions. You will have map control too so look for and destroy any possible pylons.
Now depending on situation you will want to move out. The time is usually around 12 - 14 minutes depending early game. The main army should be 2 or more tanks, 2-3 ravens, 2-3 vikings, few mines, lots of hellions and whatever what was left of you marines and perhaps even the reaper. Move out, build a CC and head for protoss third if there is any (scout with you hellions before you move out.) or move to natural. Of course it may be bit risky to attack 2 base protoss, so you shouldn´t be too aggressive and too careful especially if he is ahead or you don´t know the exact composition of protoss force. The main point of this build is to establish a third while denying his third or keeping at least keeping protoss occupied. There is also the situation where you are ahead of protoss. If that is the case, you should be able to at least damage him heavily with this push.
Now on to engagement. Engage quite slowly and set up you tanks in firing range of something whether it be his army or his base. Siege tanks are there to force the engament or to destroy his base. Mines should be positioned on whether or not protoss has air. If there is air don´t let your mines to blow up on anything else than air units with mines and vikings it is fairly easy to crush most air play. Else set them up to get the best mine hits possible. Hellbats are there to buffer the damage and keep your tanks and air units intact. Ravens are perhaps the most integral part of this build and use heavily depends on protoss composition so I am giving list of priorities. First of all make sure your ravens survive always after that:
1. Use 1 PDD to protect you from photon overcharge. 2. Hunter seeker missile void rays or immortals (If both seeker missile whatever is the biggest threath. ) 3. Use more PDDs when needed (Lots of stalkers, phoenixs or last one´s energy ran out.) 4. Turrets to protect you from whatever he has. Ravens usually have energy to do 2 of these things so be curtain that he won´t have surprise immortals/void rays.
This build requires you to have at least the control of to build production facilities, keep building reinforcements while this push happens and start setting up a third or it will turn just an somewhat effective all in so you may not want to do this with too low micro/macro capability.
Reinforcements are quite important too as you can keep getting hellions quite fast with your 3 racks so don´t worry too much about at losing them. The main point of this is to let your pricy units survive ravens , siege tanks and vikings.
Retreating is also good solution if staying becomes too risky usually at that point push has traded you cheap hellions to prevent the third or traded them for other units. You should consider this if there is a risk of you loosing all of your army and there is a possibility to retreat. Also as addition mines make excellent tools for retreat as protoss has to be quite careful to engage them.
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On February 18 2013 07:56 Everlong wrote: Blizzard is for some reason afraid to buff Tanks, because they think it would allow Terrans to turtle really hard. That is also, why there are so many siege breaking units and strategies (Tempest, Immortal, Swarm Host, Viper, etc, etc...). They just don't want Terran to be able to sit and play the defensive game. It would make things interesting, because Terran actually has all those defensive tools, it's "defensive" race for a reason. They build their units very slowly and they can't remax and tech switch as other races do. But still, for some reason, Blizzard is afraid to make Terran the defensive race and they think buffing Tank would do so.
They can't buff tanks because of mules. Mules need to go in order for tanks receiving a buff (if both of them are in the game - then turtle mech will be too strong. Bio doesn't have that problem with mules as they do not scale as well as tanks do).
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On March 20 2013 20:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2013 07:56 Everlong wrote: Blizzard is for some reason afraid to buff Tanks, because they think it would allow Terrans to turtle really hard. That is also, why there are so many siege breaking units and strategies (Tempest, Immortal, Swarm Host, Viper, etc, etc...). They just don't want Terran to be able to sit and play the defensive game. It would make things interesting, because Terran actually has all those defensive tools, it's "defensive" race for a reason. They build their units very slowly and they can't remax and tech switch as other races do. But still, for some reason, Blizzard is afraid to make Terran the defensive race and they think buffing Tank would do so. They can't buff tanks because of mules. Mules need to go in order for tanks receiving a buff (if both of them are in the game - then turtle mech will be too strong. Bio doesn't have that problem with mules as they do not scale as well as tanks do).
Why would anyone want to build 5000 Tanks when there are Tempests/Vipers in the game for example? I see that with mass orbitals lategame you can get like 160-170 supply 3/3 mech/air army that is pretty much unbeateable, but I would not say it's because of Tanks. Mules alone make ultra-late game very strong if you go for this 0 SCV 200 army strat..
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This may not be the perfect mech build but there is a streamer called Debo (you can search for his videos on twitch) that plays mechish vs Z. He is top 10 in diamond and he more or less always uses this build.
The beauty with his build is that it is so damn simple that even I in the gold leagues have no problem executing it and have no problem vs Z.
So basically he kills Z with a hellion thor push around 150 food.
The build goes roughly like this (again, please look at the videos in his stream and you will find lot of videos showing this build).
Phase one - rax - gas - factory - reactor @rax - switch with factory - tech lab @rax - expand
Produce hellions and marauders which will later be used for harass
Phase two - 2nd gas - armory & ebay for upgrades and turrets - 2 more gas at the expansion - at this point you are done with producing hellions and marauders so switch places with rax and factory. push out with hellions and marauders around 55 supply 9.30 minute mark
Phase three-Here comes the thors - start thor production as soon as armory is done - three more factories with tech labs - get a 3rd cc - another factory and starport
Just produce hellions and thors... push out for the killing blow around 150 food.
And he has some small variations with this where he sometimes brings some mines but basically he kills the zerg at 150+ food with the mighty thor hellion push and it works good in top diamond.
So if you are not looking for a mech build vs Z that needs to work in masters and above this is a fun and easy build. Check his stream out!
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I've got some replays of my TvP if you guys want to take a look. There's a loss and 2 wins there I think. I more than I lose against Toss with Tank/Hellbat mech, but some games I play really badly.
http://drop.sc/311214 http://drop.sc/311212 http://drop.sc/311211
The game on Whirlwind is how I deal with Skytoss and I realise my opponents and I'm not great and in the game (especially against iLoveCheese) I kind of threw the game away by being too passive, but you get the general idea behind what I do.
Hopefully if you're in Diamond/below it can help you a bit. ^^ I play quite passive in TvP, but I'm looking into training with someone to get some all ins finalised (6 fact shove works against an early third base/early stargate play but I've got no replays of it).
I've also got a replay of my TvZ against a viper style with pretty much just tanks/mines with vikings mixed in.
http://drop.sc/311210
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Big credit to justMeeps for being a kickass and sending me a new banner!
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