|
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
GM players macro perfectly/nearly perfectly while doing all the aggressive and defensive shit at very high level.
Masters players, except highest master players slip with their macro often throughout the game, and loose games because of basic mistakes they do because they aren't quite skilled in certain aggressive or defensive aspect of sc2.
IMO the difference is huge, it's like silver - diamond ratio. Yes, they can take a game occasionally from gm player, but mid and lower master players are miles away from gm. I'm not even talking about aggressive/cheeser/one2base players that can easily sit in masters league yet have very low macro play skill.
|
On December 12 2012 19:08 Putty wrote:
1)GM Macro and mechanics are A LOT better then an average mid-master.
2) Timings. Just an example : parting doing the immortal/sentry allinn leaves his base at 8.40, an average gm maybe at 9.00, a mid-master 9.30 (based on my experience). Thats a huge difference.
3)Engagements : most of the master players just a-move and spam storm/emp/fungal. GMs takes very refined engagements.
4)Litttle details that makes the difference.
Ive never played a gm, but i think the 9:30 or later move outs are a different variant that throws down the robo after the 3rd pylon. This variant is slightly stronger than partings variant because you get +1 armor and more sentry energy. Most players at even dia can move out at 9 using partings variant of the allin.
|
There is no perfect answer for this question.
I have read some good answers but none is perfect. (Mine will also not be a perfect one, but at least It is a honest opinion)
My advice would be to improve at least these 4 concepts we all know:
- Build Orders
- Micro
- Macro
- Multi Tasking
There are many GM that are not so strong at these 4 concepts, they are good but you can notice that they are usally very strong only in 2 or 3.
When we talk about mechanics, we refer to the concepts above but decision making and reaction/timing on situations you encounter yourself during the game may have alot of impact in the outcome of a game.
I was Master for a while in EU and I am still Diamond playing less than 5 games a week on ladder. My mechanics are very sloppy and my 200 apm went down to a modest 100. The reason I keep winning games against Masters and top Masters is only because of my decisions and experience.
I must agree with TheEmulator when he says that the difference may be either mechanics or decision making.
To improve your decision making you need experience. I have played SC since 98 and I still do for fun because the community is amazing and the game is amazing. To improve decision making you need to put yourself in situations that are new to you... and this is hard as hell.
A good way to make your improvement grow faster is playing a massive amount of games or discuss your decisions within a game with a person at the same level as you (it can be higher). The second option for me is the best since it is the faster one.
When you discuss your decisions usually you absorb them easier and you are able to work around your decision in a taylor made fashion making it almost perfect. Now, a game can have many decisions... weather we attack or defend, weather we expand or tech... and so on.
I can tell you one thing, while teaching alot of friends I always said this and I will repeat it... copying a gamestyle usually works bad. Your mechanics become very good but your receptiveness to new strategies becomes very debilitated.
Note: Attention, I do think watching replays is good to learn faster, what I mean is don't copy reactions... try to understand the decisions, sometimes they are good and you might agree. Even great players can make bad decisions and win games because of their mechanics! Same goes the other way around.
Work the 4 concepts I mentioned above, after that you are 50% on your way to GM. The next 50% is knowing how react to each situation and understand the timings (I haven't talked about scouting because I consider at this level scouting your enemy is a fundamental part of your game).
In conclusion, I would like to wish you the very best of luck for your journey to achieve GM status!
Have fun and good games.
PS: I am already 29, working in a international company, doing gym and being with family and friends makes playing this wonderful game hard because the lack of time.. but I am happy because I can still play it! 
|
For me difference between okay player(read master) and good player(read high master/gm) is that they understant what are they dooing.
To an okay player you can show build and he will probably play it somewhere up to 80% of its strenght when he masters it. Problem is you cant play it more efficiently untill you understant what is it that you are doing. You can play the build near perfect everygame but if you dont understant why it will never be in its fullest potentional. The more you understant the "behind the scenes" of the game the more you are getting into the "good player" category.
|
Before asking what's the difference between Low Masters and GM, ask yourself what's the difference between MKP and MVP.
Although they're at about the same skill level, MVP just has that difference that is almost invisible. His macro is not as immaculate, his micro is not as sexy, but time and time again when MKP would normally crumble under the pressure--MVP soars.
The higher up the ranks you go in anything--the more difficult it is to bridge the skill gap. Why? Because you're already doing everything essentially "perfectly"
It's just not perfect enough yet.
|
United States2186 Posts
A combination of small details matter so much. I was helping out a friend who is top 150 masters (NA) earlier this week in tvp and our games were pretty illustrative.
In short, his builds weren't crisp enough (multiple losses to standard pressure in the first 10 minutes), he was slower (had to think during the game, thus was out position versus drops), didn't have a full game plan for each moment, made wrong decisions (i,e trying to attack while on 2 bases) and didn't understand how to play certain strategies (tried to transition from templar to colossus on 2 bases), and he lacked proper knowhow to hide his allins. The last point was rather interesting. In the games where he didn't allin, I didn't even scout for it because I felt all was fine. When he did allin, I scouted at all the right times because something felt wrong. Overall it felt like I could do pretty much anything and get way ahead.
|
On December 13 2012 03:36 Ver wrote:
A combination of small details matter so much. I was helping out a friend who is top 150 masters (NA) earlier this week in tvp and our games were pretty illustrative.
In short, his builds weren't crisp enough (multiple losses to standard pressure in the first 10 minutes), he was slower (had to think during the game, thus was out position versus drops), didn't have a full game plan for each moment, made wrong decisions (i,e trying to attack while on 2 bases) and didn't understand how to play certain strategies (tried to transition from templar to colossus on 2 bases), and he lacked proper knowhow to hide his allins. The last point was rather interesting. In the games where he didn't allin, I didn't even scout for it because I felt all was fine. When he did allin, I scouted at all the right times because something felt wrong. Overall it felt like I could do pretty much anything and get way ahead.
I do all of these things but lose cuz my unit control is god awful.
I probably have a solid 50% or so I my losses that I can blame on poor control, but don't really have the time or knowhow to fix it. 
|
On December 13 2012 04:10 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 03:36 Ver wrote:
A combination of small details matter so much. I was helping out a friend who is top 150 masters (NA) earlier this week in tvp and our games were pretty illustrative.
In short, his builds weren't crisp enough (multiple losses to standard pressure in the first 10 minutes), he was slower (had to think during the game, thus was out position versus drops), didn't have a full game plan for each moment, made wrong decisions (i,e trying to attack while on 2 bases) and didn't understand how to play certain strategies (tried to transition from templar to colossus on 2 bases), and he lacked proper knowhow to hide his allins. The last point was rather interesting. In the games where he didn't allin, I didn't even scout for it because I felt all was fine. When he did allin, I scouted at all the right times because something felt wrong. Overall it felt like I could do pretty much anything and get way ahead.
I do all of these things but lose cuz my unit control is god awful. I probably have a solid 50% or so I my losses that I can blame on poor control, but don't really have the time or knowhow to fix it.
Kinda hard to practice battles since there are so many scenarios and all map-dependent. I wish there were some way to practice control on actual parts of actual in-use maps or something so if you wanted to figure out how to hold something on (for example), Cloud Kingdom, you'd know exactly where to pick fights, etc.
|
On December 13 2012 04:14 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 04:10 Jermstuddog wrote:On December 13 2012 03:36 Ver wrote:
A combination of small details matter so much. I was helping out a friend who is top 150 masters (NA) earlier this week in tvp and our games were pretty illustrative.
In short, his builds weren't crisp enough (multiple losses to standard pressure in the first 10 minutes), he was slower (had to think during the game, thus was out position versus drops), didn't have a full game plan for each moment, made wrong decisions (i,e trying to attack while on 2 bases) and didn't understand how to play certain strategies (tried to transition from templar to colossus on 2 bases), and he lacked proper knowhow to hide his allins. The last point was rather interesting. In the games where he didn't allin, I didn't even scout for it because I felt all was fine. When he did allin, I scouted at all the right times because something felt wrong. Overall it felt like I could do pretty much anything and get way ahead.
I do all of these things but lose cuz my unit control is god awful. I probably have a solid 50% or so I my losses that I can blame on poor control, but don't really have the time or knowhow to fix it. Kinda hard to practice battles since there are so many scenarios and all map-dependent. I wish there were some way to practice control on actual parts of actual in-use maps or something so if you wanted to figure out how to hold something on (for example), Cloud Kingdom, you'd know exactly where to pick fights, etc.
Assuming resume from replay comes (as described by Blizzard) with HotS, you should hopefully be able to load up a real-game situation over and over again with a practice partner to see how battles turn out differently if you engage in different locations.
|
On December 12 2012 19:54 MrFraische wrote:
I would say that low masters is about the same in skill level as a top Diamond, but the same can not be said for high masters/low GM... think about it in percentages of players -> masters is top 2% of players.. but there are A LOT of players on each server... GM is the top 200 players out of all the players.
This SHOULD tell you that they are basically better at everything than the normal masters players, with the exception of some really "toptop" masters players who aren't in GM because they simply can't fit into it.
Although, if you need a specific answer to the MAIN reason they are better, I would definitely say: decision making in all stages of the game -> what build, how to react to what, when to attack, what units to make.. etc...
Pretty often top masters are as good if not better than low GM players. It's just a matter of how active you feel like being to bridge the MMR gap to actually get in at that point.
|
On December 13 2012 03:36 Ver wrote:
and he lacked proper knowhow to hide his allins. The last point was rather interesting. In the games where he didn't allin, I didn't even scout for it because I felt all was fine. When he did allin, I scouted at all the right times because something felt wrong. Overall it felt like I could do pretty much anything and get way ahead.
Can you elaborate on that Ver? I am currently stuck in Diamond and I have no idea what you are talking about. What is this "sense" that people talk about? Is it the lack of units? Lack of pressure? What is it about the game that changes when a person decides to all-in?
|
On December 13 2012 04:45 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 03:36 Ver wrote:
and he lacked proper knowhow to hide his allins. The last point was rather interesting. In the games where he didn't allin, I didn't even scout for it because I felt all was fine. When he did allin, I scouted at all the right times because something felt wrong. Overall it felt like I could do pretty much anything and get way ahead.
Can you elaborate on that Ver? I am currently stuck in Diamond and I have no idea what you are talking about. What is this "sense" that people talk about? Is it the lack of units? Lack of pressure? What is it about the game that changes when a person decides to all-in?
3rd attempt at responding to this:
Scouting tends to go the same way every game unless your opponent is trying to be sneaky. So you develop this sense that "things don't feel right" and you don't necessarily know why, but you know that you need to know.
Great players find ways to get a scout past the front line where they can reveal everything their opponent is trying to hide. Sometimes even then, it's not about seeing what they're doing, but simply seeing what they NOT doing that can clue you off to what's in store.
|
On December 12 2012 16:03 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
The difference between a low master and a high master is about just as big as bronze to diamond. A low master literally has no chance vs a high master. With that being said if it took you 1 year to get from bronze to master then it will probably take you another year to get from master to gm.
Not entirely true. I've beaten high masters before (as a low master) by using strange unit compositions that they might not know how to combat.
|
i would say the average GM has better decision making in terms of unit tasks (what youre doing with your stuff) and money. for instance, i often see high masters or mdi master terrans get supply blocked , this happens to GMs of every race as well. However, the difference is the GM terran will throw down a macro CC or add extra raxes quicker while the cash floats. though other players might do it it too, it seems the top level players are always finding useful ways to spend their money right as they get it and micro effectively while they do it
|
I'd also like to ask the question; When are you High Master? - When are you TOP master? When are you Mid Master?
Its been a bit hard to pry out information about how many Masters league players there actually are, yet a sound number ranges from 8-9000 per server. Cutting the number down severely, we'll have a good safety net I recon. Since there's 5 servers total, we can assume that at least 30.000 accounts are currently in Masters or GrandMasters.
So are you Mid-Master when you're top 15.000 in the world, or do you need to go higher?
When are you High Masters?
Currently SC2 ranks lists me as ~3800 in the world with ~840 points.
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On December 13 2012 17:03 Keilkan wrote:
I'd also like to ask the question; When are you High Master? - When are you TOP master? When are you Mid Master?
Its been a bit hard to pry out information about how many Masters league players there actually are, yet a sound number ranges from 8-9000 per server. Cutting the number down severely, we'll have a good safety net I recon. Since there's 5 servers total, we can assume that at least 30.000 accounts are currently in Masters or GrandMasters.
So are you Mid-Master when you're top 15.000 in the world, or do you need to go higher?
When are you High Masters?
Currently SC2 ranks lists me as ~3800 in the world with ~840 points.
You're Low Masters if you can lose a few games in a row and start seeing diamond leaguers. This is where I am. You're Mid Master when you stop seeing Diamond Leaguers on the ladder, ever, even when you lose some games. You're High or Top Master when you play against GM players on the ladder.
Personally, the thing that holds me back from becoming a better player is my mechanics. I think too slow and act too slow, and my macro and micro get slipped up. I make my decisions too slowly, execute them poorly, and read my opponent poorly. I know a few specific timing attacks and build orders kinda okay, which means I can beat any diamond leaguer and below, but they crumble in the face of superior opponents who use a combination of solid mechanics, snap decision making, and critical thinking that doesn't cause different parts of the game to stumble over each other.
I can't micro a drop, macro, move my army, and make decisions at the same time. I can probably do 2, maybe 3 of those things at once, and not perfectly. This is what holds me back.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On December 13 2012 17:39 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 17:03 Keilkan wrote:
I'd also like to ask the question; When are you High Master? - When are you TOP master? When are you Mid Master?
Its been a bit hard to pry out information about how many Masters league players there actually are, yet a sound number ranges from 8-9000 per server. Cutting the number down severely, we'll have a good safety net I recon. Since there's 5 servers total, we can assume that at least 30.000 accounts are currently in Masters or GrandMasters.
So are you Mid-Master when you're top 15.000 in the world, or do you need to go higher?
When are you High Masters?
Currently SC2 ranks lists me as ~3800 in the world with ~840 points.
You're Low Masters if you can lose a few games in a row and start seeing diamond leaguers. This is where I am. You're Mid Master when you stop seeing Diamond Leaguers on the ladder, ever, even when you lose some games. You're High or Top Master when you play against GM players on the ladder. Personally, the thing that holds me back from becoming a better player is my mechanics. I think too slow and act too slow, and my macro and micro get slipped up. I make my decisions too slowly, execute them poorly, and read my opponent poorly. I know a few specific timing attacks and build orders kinda okay, which means I can beat any diamond leaguer and below, but they crumble in the face of superior opponents who use a combination of solid mechanics, snap decision making, and critical thinking that doesn't cause different parts of the game to stumble over each other. I can't micro a drop, macro, move my army, and make decisions at the same time. I can probably do 2, maybe 3 of those things at once, and not perfectly. This is what holds me back.
|
i'm not sure why there seems to be such an obsession with what magical x factors separate gm and masters. it's like people think that if they can fix "one thing" in their gameplay they'll magically rise to gm. gms do literally everything better than masters. just multiply your own game sense, micro, macro, knowledge of builds etc by several factors and that's how much you need to improve to get to gm yourself.
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 12 2012 19:14 Putty wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 17:27 Defenestrator wrote:On December 12 2012 16:03 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
The difference between a low master and a high master is about just as big as bronze to diamond. A low master literally has no chance vs a high master. With that being said if it took you 1 year to get from bronze to master then it will probably take you another year to get from master to gm. I don't think this is true at all. A diamond player can beat a bronze or even silver (possibly gold) player only using their mouse. I seriously doubt any non-pro could beat a low masters like that, and even then it would be very challenging. I think there's a difference in all areas, but the main difference is in unit control and multitask. I see Dragon beating a high diamond player on the eu server (which means master level on NA) using only the mouse and without wearing glasses (so one-handed and blind) :D
To start off, Diamond EU is way below Masters NA, EU is only slightly better than NA, and it only really makes a difference at a pro level.
Diamond compared to Masters is a massive change, Diamond players won't compare to a pro player like Dragon.
|
The difference between top master and GM is playing more at a certain time in the season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
