[G] TheStaircase - An Alternative Improvement Method - Pag…

icrossj

2 Posts

May 04 2015 16:20 GMT

#1421

@TedBurtle and @Cascade,

Thanks for the input. I've watched some youtube videos and it seems like protoss doesn't constantly make units. It seems like you make 1 gateway -> 1 cybercore, and then expand?

I guess i was just copying off Terran where you can constantly make marines and scv.

i like the concept, but i think i'll try out some other methods first to get a feel of what standard protoss play feels like. and then maybe come back to this.

dchaudh

58 Posts

May 04 2015 17:27 GMT

#1422

@icrossj

i've been playing around with toss recently and i came to the same conclusion regarding step 1. however, i do think that the principles of the staircase remain valid and i ended up implementing them by playing a couple of games where I:
(1) researched warpgate
(2) built stalkers
(3) built no other types of army units
(4) never missed a warp cycle

item #4 (never missing a warp-cycle) is the most important because the result of the mechanic is similar to zerg's larvae inject in that we're unable to queue it and, if we delay warping-in units after they are available to be warped, those units are essentially lost forever.

TedBurtle

Belarus201 Posts

May 05 2015 06:38 GMT

#1423

On May 05 2015 01:20 icrossj wrote:
@TedBurtle and @Cascade,

Thanks for the input. I've watched some youtube videos and it seems like protoss doesn't constantly make units. It seems like you make 1 gateway -> 1 cybercore, and then expand?

I guess i was just copying off Terran where you can constantly make marines and scv.

i like the concept, but i think i'll try out some other methods first to get a feel of what standard protoss play feels like. and then maybe come back to this.

It's ok if you constantly build units. But make sure to CHRONO probes always, and when probes is building and you got free minerals, you spend them on units/production...after warpgate tech, try not to miss warp cycles, with same math -> probe first, free minerals on units/new gates.

And after you learn how to do it constantly, you can learn builds.
How to expand from 1 gate, and play ~10 minutes with 4 stalkers and Mothership core

Coldblackice

United States49 Posts

May 27 2015 01:59 GMT

#1424

Regarding the base saturation speed stat, is it considered "cheating" to bring over a herd of workers from your 1st to your 2nd as soon as it's landed?

Seems like this would be "cheating" the stat for 2nd base saturation, giving you an instant Master-league sticker, even if you just abandoned your 1st with no workers remaining. Does ggTracker account for this (or can it)?

I only ask because I want to know if I'm developing a bad habit -- I build my 2nd CC at my 1st base, lift and land it at my expansion, and then drag-select a herd of workers from 1st and move to 2nd. I don't pay attention to how many workers I grab, I just roughly grab half, knowing that both CC's are control-grouped and will be building workers continuously, so they'll both populate and max out workers on their own.

I just want to check whether I'm able to still rely on the base-saturation stat by doing this or if I'm undercutting the value of the stat by instant-saturating base #2.

TedBurtle

Belarus201 Posts

May 27 2015 08:28 GMT

#1425

On May 27 2015 10:59 Coldblackice wrote:
Regarding the base saturation speed stat, is it considered "cheating" to bring over a herd of workers from your 1st to your 2nd as soon as it's landed?

Seems like this would be "cheating" the stat for 2nd base saturation, giving you an instant Master-league sticker, even if you just abandoned your 1st with no workers remaining. Does ggTracker account for this (or can it)?

I only ask because I want to know if I'm developing a bad habit -- I build my 2nd CC at my 1st base, lift and land it at my expansion, and then drag-select a herd of workers from 1st and move to 2nd. I don't pay attention to how many workers I grab, I just roughly grab half, knowing that both CC's are control-grouped and will be building workers continuously, so they'll both populate and max out workers on their own.

I just want to check whether I'm able to still rely on the base-saturation stat by doing this or if I'm undercutting the value of the stat by instant-saturating base #2.

You doing it, because you want stats? or to play better?
It should work, to get "saturation ML stats", but it don't make any sense to do it like this in game, you just losing tempo and economy

Coldblackice

United States49 Posts

May 27 2015 08:50 GMT

#1426

On May 27 2015 17:28 TedBurtle wrote:

Show nested quote +

You doing it, because you want stats? or to play better?
It should work, to get "saturation ML stats", but it don't make any sense to do it like this in game, you just losing tempo and economy

I'm doing this 100% to try and play better. I don't care about the stats beyond anything more than as a tool to get better.

But by bringing over half your workers to your 2nd base all at once, does that basically undermine the usefulness of the "2nd base saturation" statistic?

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

May 27 2015 10:48 GMT

#1427

Worker Transfers are important in Starcraft. You have 2 major options:

1. Grab half the workers and leave the rallies as they are.

2. Send all but 16 3 3 and make both rallies at the new base.

They are very similar in terms of economy, but #2 is technically more efficient. #1 is best when you might need workers at that base to defend or repair a wall-in.

Keep in mind Saturation Speed detects overall income. It rewards you for being efficient with your workers. Sending all your workers from an old base to a new one will not help you get better Saturation Speed.

Coldblackice

United States49 Posts

May 29 2015 13:11 GMT

#1428

On May 27 2015 19:48 JaKaTaKSc2 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Aha! Very useful, and very good to know. Thanks Jak. Makes much more sense now.

Darkened2

Germany20 Posts

June 16 2015 19:49 GMT

#1429

I am using the staircase and just want to give some feedback how well it works

Background and my specific approach:
I played zerg only in the past (>6 months ago for the last time).
5 weeks ago I decided to play random (for having more fun) and to use the staircase - before I was stuck at gold/silver since the beginning of WoL.

I am logging distinct staircase levels for each race.
There where 68 games since 7th of may (~2 games per day, mostly 5+ games and some days off).

My progress:
silver promotion after 23 games.
gold promotion after 54 games.

protoss level 2 after 5 games
protoss level 3 after 11 games (current level after 21 games)

terran level 2 after 16 games (current level after 19 games)

zerg level 2 after 8 games
zerg level 3 after 16 games
zerg level 4 after 25 games (current level after 28 games)

Conclusion:
It is a lot of fun. I have no more "fear of the ladder"

... so I play much more. I think I am currently better than ever before (I played 500 ladder games sc2 before trying the staircase).

Some final impressions while playing random: Protoss (Zealots only) is OP in bronze league

Terran macro is pretty hard to learn (my SCVs dont mine - they have to build depots all the time... :D ) With zerg I have 4times the APM as compared to with other races (probably due to building zerglings).

So thanks Jak for this! I hope you continue/adapt this when LotV is live.

OzCrescendo

Australia31 Posts

June 28 2015 10:35 GMT

#1430

Just posting here to say thanks to JaKaTaK for creating this.

This year I've been trying to build up my understanding of SC2, and my game mechanics, but had been making very little progress.

As a Zerg, I've been averaging 40-70APM. Today I decided to start up TheStaircase.

With Steps 0 and 1 of the Staircase I've already started to see results in the 100-130APM mark - something unprecedented for me, and somewhat mindblowing. My GGTracker spending/saturation results have also seen an immediate boost.

I've a lot more work to do, but even this small day 1 result has given me a sense that my effort isn't going to go to waste.

NeoBlade

Germany262 Posts

July 01 2015 11:44 GMT

#1431

> So thanks Jak for this! I hope you continue/adapt this when LotV is live.

There is no need to. TheStaircase uses concepts, that won't change:
- Macro
- Mechanics
- Micro

Here is proof: TheStaircase #3 beets a GM (Grandmaster), with Speedlings and Upgrades only

9 times Grandmaster
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/677001/1/PLZLEAVEDUCK/

MiSu (Top8 Diamond) vs PLZLEAVEDUCK (GM)
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5992394

German YouTube Playlist: Zerg from Bronze to Diamond (TheStaircase MiSu)

Darkened2

Germany20 Posts

July 03 2015 14:36 GMT

#1432

On July 01 2015 20:44 NeoBlade wrote:
> So thanks Jak for this! I hope you continue/adapt this when LotV is live.

There is no need to. TheStaircase uses concepts, that won't change:
- Macro
- Mechanics
- Micro

I think ggtracker (the replay analysis code) needs to be changed for LotV. The economy changes quite a lot as well as the meaning of "base X is saturated" over time. You cant simply state "at X bases income should be X*640".
When some other economy model will be used, it will be even more complicated.

But we will see, when LotV is done

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

July 04 2015 16:20 GMT

#1433

~~TheStaircase is under construction. Be back with details.~~

EDIT:

TheStaircase has been updated!

LotV units added
Saturation Speed Removed
Race Macro updated
Max Creep % added

Quick note on Saturation Speed:

It is a failed attempt at making a metric for resource collection. As there was no alternative (GGTracker is maintained but not in the business of developing new metrics anymore) I left it in. Unfortunately this has caused a lot of problems and encouraged bad habits. Until a suitable replacement is found, it will simply be removed from the process.

Otherwise everything is the same, enjoy

Darkened2

Germany20 Posts

July 06 2015 12:29 GMT

#1434

Tanks a lot Jak.

One question on the new metrics (race macro and max creep): How do I read the ggtracker graphs to know if I met the league requirements?

(for zerg there is a race macro number, but not for terran and protoss; for max creep there is a graph, not a single number)

kaprikawn

United Kingdom2 Posts

July 07 2015 19:57 GMT

#1435

Whoah, consider me a convert to The Staircase. I started playing SC2 a few months ago, and before I started I did a fair bit of research and came across, amongst other stuff, The Core (which I use) and The Staircase. I dabbled in The Staircase, but it didn't appeal initially appeal because I didn't really want to be losing on ladder because I could only make slow lings (I realise and fully understand that winning and losing in The Staircase is not the point but still).

The other stuff I came across were the videos by the likes of Lowko and Fenner giving 'beginner' builds, which tended to be roach pushes with promises to reach Platinum with this one build. I did that for a short while and had some success. But then I came to the realisation that if I carried on doing that then I would be in Platinum with one build, I would be a one-trick pony. And if I then wanted to transition into using other builds I would be doing, for example, a Silver-level ling bane muta against Platinum opponents. This didn't seem wise. So I decided to concentrate again on the basics, which for me seemed to be the early game with lings (which I was particularly bad at).

I've had a month or so not playing SC2, and I've decided to pick it up again, and I thought 'hey, if I'm concentrating on basics and lings I might want to rethink trying The Staircase again, because that's basically what it is I want to do isn't it'. So that's what I've done, I've gone back to Step 1 of The Staircase starting today. I've played 3 games....and I won them all. I didn't even macro particularly well but by Christ did I enjoy the process.

There was a game against a Terran, who was rekking me big time with widow mines, I made ling after ling and A-moved them, many to their doom. But then I made more and more and more and eventually won. There was a Protoss who had oracles and a colossus or two by the end, same thing, I won through shear attrition.

Again, I totally understand that winning and losing is not the point, but remember my initial reservation was that I didn't really want to lose continually. But here I am, not losing. And now I'm fully committed to The Staircase. My macro was good but not great in the games I won and now I feel totally happy to stay on step 1 until I feel like I'm macroing to the best of my ability and it's second nature. The point being that now, I know I'll enjoy step 1 while I'm executing it, my misconception before was that that wouldn't be the case and that I'd find the early steps to feel like a chore.

My thanks to The Staircase organisers, when I feel ready expect my application to The Proving Grounds.

Coldblackice

United States49 Posts

July 08 2015 12:40 GMT

#1436

On July 05 2015 01:20 JaKaTaKSc2 wrote:
~~TheStaircase is under construction. Be back with details.~~

EDIT:

TheStaircase has been updated!

LotV units added
Saturation Speed Removed
Race Macro updated
Max Creep % added

Jak, can you explain why? Or what bad habits in particular you're referring to? Is there another metric we could use (or modify this to)?

It's a shame to lose a metric :-/ I really like seeing a row of "gold stars", so to speak -- it's motivating to play!

PS - Off-topic, I hope you include these projects on any and all job resumes! These are the exact type of things that make someone stand out to interviewers for a position, and demonstrates a lot by saying little. The threads/numbers/data speak for themselves! Perhaps you could even track usage stats, which would be great for the projects in and of themselves.

aton389

2 Posts

July 31 2015 18:16 GMT

#1437

Is it normal/ok to have a few large spikes in resources but a low overall average? Or should I be keeping it low all the time before moving on to the next step?

Also was wondering if anyone ever staircases together online, against each other/against ai/etc? Don't much like the idea of going into ladder to practice it, esp since I'm so new to sc2 and online games. :/

JaKaTaKSc2

United States2787 Posts

August 06 2015 00:32 GMT

#1438

Yea for sure, actually, its often really fun to have one player focus 100% on macro (thestaircase) and the other focus on decision making and micro to see who can come out on top!