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On June 12 2013 06:26 Fiziks wrote:
Right now my Saturation Speed will always either read Bronze or Masters. So I'm either noob at it or Awesome at it. I still look at SCV count because it tells me how far off I was from the target and not just the result.
I have the same issue. I think the reason is that there is very little spread between Bronze level saturation and Masters level saturation, so you end up at one end or the other.
I'm starting to move away from this constantly producing SCV's stuff. I frequently finish my games with 80+ SCV's and think, jeez I could have had a bigger army without any loss in income. Now that constantly producing is a habit, which is good in the early game and mid game, I want to figure out when is a good time to stop making workers.
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@Tuplex
16 workers on minerals and 3 on each gas will give you 22 per base. Generally players go for a 3 base income, so that would be 66 workers at full efficiency. 4 base income is too supply costly IMO (88 workers).
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Am I missing something? Home come I don't see the benchmark values on the Reference Sheet?
Could some one let me know what to do with the Reference Sheet?
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As far as SCV/probe production goes, I just look at the "workers active" graph and notice flat areas! Then I go back to the main graph to see what I was doing that made me forget making workers. Sometimes, though, I decide to stop worker production (i.e. when I have 3 fully-saturated bases, I won't make new workers for my 4th base). For drones, I just saturate whatever new bases I have before making attacking units, which seems to work well.
As far as new metrics, I noticed injects are not meaningful anymore. But I still like to somehow gauge my injecting ability.
@FAD: reference sheet is now just for rules/guidelines and given units. Essentially, one would use it when getting started with TheStaircase. Everything else is moved to ggtracker.
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I don't get much time to play, so I've only played about 5 games using this beta method - but I have to say it's pretty darned good and so thanks to Jak and everyone else who is testing/working on it!
edit: I should also mention that I found theStaircase maps in SC2 which are amazing - but only when I decided to try looking on the NA server (I'm in Australia). These great maps should be made apparent in the OP, IMO.
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@FADCoUltra
The benchmarks we use are league-ified. This means that when you upload your games to ggtracker.com they will be compared to the median performance for each league. If your goal is to be in the master's league, then you should make sure you are getting at least master's level spending skill and saturation speed 4/5 games before moving on to the next step. (Remember to use TheStaircase view in the drop down menu from your name).
@feng
After doing a fair amount of research, we realized that measuring injects is not as important as we thought it was. We think players will find the most success by focusing on improving the aspects of their game that are most important (spending and saturation). The race macro was made before the patch that upgraded the replays, and so it is very flawed because we were doing the best we could with little information. The most important thing is larva blocks, which we will have a metric for in the future.
A larva block, as you may have guessed is whenever you can't build units for the sole reason that you do not have enough larva. Usually this is a result of missing injects, but larva blocks can also occur when:
the build you did that game has some flaw in it. (maybe needs a sooner queen or macro hatch)
you aren't managing your hatchery larva properly. (you have 3 idle larva for extended periods of time)
If you want to keep track of this, I would make a mental note every time you are larva blocked, and then go back and see if that situation was avoidable, and adjust your game accordingly (just like we did with supply blocks in the past.
@Efemral
Thanks! We're really excited to have finally released version 6.0 :D
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On June 12 2013 20:24 JaKaTaK wrote:
(Remember to use TheStaircase view in the drop down menu from your name).
...
Thanks! We're really excited to have finally released version 6.0 :D
Wowow, when I read those statements, I had to check it out. Nice work!
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On June 12 2013 09:20 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Tuplex
16 workers on minerals and 3 on each gas will give you 22 per base. Generally players go for a 3 base income, so that would be 66 workers at full efficiency. 4 base income is too supply costly IMO (88 workers).
Just wanted to add that if you are Zerg, going up to ~80-100 drones can at times be the right move. If an opponent is playing a macro style, as Zerg you can sometimes afford to temporarily go up to 100 drones to build a massive bank as you tech to hive, then use up ~25-30 of those drones on static defenses to free up supply.
As Terran or Protoss though, it is almost never beneficial to go above 70 workers.
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Doesn't this sort of have a problem with Zealots unable to attack air? One mothership core from the other player will end the game.
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On June 13 2013 10:58 User15937 wrote:
Doesn't this sort of have a problem with Zealots unable to attack air? One mothership core from the other player will end the game.
Not until Diamond.
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Apologies for being slow but can someone tell me does one need to 'go pro' with ggtracker in order for it to compute my spending quotient / spending skill?
Been trying to figure this out all day and it's breaking me.
Edit: I just discovered that ggtracker looks different when you're looking at a replay from a 'thestaircase' mod map. Maybe this is what I've been missing.
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@User
It really only becomes an issue when a terran flies their buildings to the corner of the map. Keep in mind, you can build cannons with minerals for defense 
If the above mentioned situation does happen, feel free to grab some voids and finish em off 
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I have done my best to read the topic, watch the YouTube videos, and experiment on my own, but I'm still not 100% sure how to actually use the Staircase to improve. I'll walk you through what I've done, and hopefully you can spot where I'm going wrong.
Opening the reference sheet it was clear I needed to start at step 0, because I'm a Zerg player. I played 5 games and kept my three injecting queens under 30 energy and used two more queens to goop of the entire map. Success! And I learned how GENIUS the creep spread mechanic in theCore is to boot!
Step 1 was too much fun. I started building nothing but zerglings and running over silver level opponents off one or two bases. My SQ was Master or Grandmaster level. I was expanding to six or seven bases a game to keep my minerals low, and had numerous macro hatches. After earning gold, and finally getting five Masters in a row I moved onto Step 2.
Step 2 I realized that SQ wasn't the only metric, that Saturation speed was also important. I discovered the "Staircase View" on ggTracker, and realized that my saturation speed was incredibly bad. Bronze on all of my games. I analyzed this and realized that the problem was my third base vs Protoss and Terran, and my second base vs Zerg. So I decided to bring the metric up to Master level. Suddenly I was so focused on rushing to three base saturation, that I was getting attacked with no defenses before I could reach three base saturation, and sometimes before two base saturation!
So I backed up and decided to go back to step 1. I am currently trying to balance making just enough units to hold pressure, while rapidly saturating a second base. I'll then launch a small attack, while expanding and preparing to quickly get it saturated before entering into my nonstop zergling production. Success, grandmaster saturation speed on all three bases!
However, now my SQ has tanked to Silver or Gold level. I feel like rushing drones gives me a giant influx of minerals that I am unable to spend. I need a macro hatch to spend it all! But the moment I build a third base that dreaded "Saturation speed" timer begins. I want it to purely make lings from for a short while to hold pressure and keep minerals low, but I feel like I'm being penalized for using it that way.
All in all, now I feel lost. I'm not even sure if I should count games where I have master SQ, master saturation on my first and second bases, but a bronze saturation on my third. Does a game even count if you fail to take a third base at all? In ZvZ, I can hold a speedling baneling 1 base all in with nothing but slow lings, 1 spine, Queens, and a decent choke, but I have to scout it and cut drone production at my second base. Does ggTracker know this and take this into account when my second base saturation is so far behind? What SHOULD I be doing in those situations where I need to saturate a second base, but I see a giant tier 1 push coming from my opponent?
(Haha, sorry this is so poorly worded and formatted! I sound like I'm losing my mind... hopefully someone can interpret that and answer my frustrations. If not, I'll clean it up when I'm not typing on my tablet!)
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Hey hey Verde!
Really excellent points. First the easy stuff.
You do not have to make it to 3 bases to pass the game, and Saturation Speed will not come into effect unless you build that 3rd hatchery.
No need to rush to 3 bases super quick, try to wait for a gap in time where you are safe. Scout a shit ton... like one metric shit ton.
GGTracker does not know when you are holding a one base all-in. That would be impressive as fuck though. I'd imagine dsjeorg would start making a Sc2 AI that could beat pros with that kind of power. It knows when your base is finished and in position. If it gets killed before the benchmark, then it doesn't count it. But if it hits the benchmark where it ought to be saturated, is not, and is then killed, it does count.
And the hard stuff:
Zerg mechanics are so closely interwoven into Zerg strategy. A zerg player has to scout a lot just to know when to build workers. Add in the complexity that your expansions (hatcheries) are also unit producing structures and it makes it very difficult to sort out. The only real hiccup in the data we had was that the higher league a ZvZ, the slower the 3rd base was saturated, which was why we went with one benchmark for that matchup instead of a progression.
I do not have a solution to this problem. I will be keeping it in the forefront of my mind until a solution is found. Do you have any ideas?
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VerdeCreed,
Building more queens may help. It sounds like the issue is that you both dont have enough larva to spend all of your money, and you dont want to cut too many workers in favor of units. A few extra queens will soak up that money and help with defense.
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Hi,
I think I might want to try this out. I'm a gold Terran player.
If I want to start from Step 2 - Given Units only. Does that mean I'm allowed to build Marines, Hellions, and Hellbats?
When I successfully move to Step 3, and I select 1 battle unit like Medivac, that means I'm allowed to build Marines, Hellions, Hellbats, and Medivacs?
Am I understanding The Staircase correctly?
How about upgrades? Am I allowed to research upgrades for my given units and battle units?
EDIT: In GG Tracker, the SQ level little icon would mean which level am I on TheStaircase correct?
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hey hey! Looks like you've just about got it
I would strongly suggest starting from Step 1. It might seem "too easy" but challenge yourself to see exactly how much you can do at each step rather than just passing it and moving on. Its especially good to train your multitasking.
The only restriction is to units. Get all the upgrades you want! :D
In ggtracker (make sure you are in TheStaircase mode) look for the league badges for Spending Skill and Saturation Speed. When you meet or exceed the league you are going for 4 out of the last 5 games, then you are ready to move on to the next step. Just getting it one time isn't enough, you must prove to yourself that you are consistent, otherwise you're likely to get frustrated on the higher steps, or not get the most out of them.
GLHF
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On June 14 2013 22:58 JaKaTaK wrote:hey hey! Looks like you've just about got it I would strongly suggest starting from Step 1. It might seem "too easy" but challenge yourself to see exactly how much you can do at each step rather than just passing it and moving on. Its especially good to train your multitasking. The only restriction is to units. Get all the upgrades you want! :D In ggtracker (make sure you are in TheStaircase mode) look for the league badges for Spending Skill and Saturation Speed. When you meet or exceed the league you are going for 4 out of the last 5 games, then you are ready to move on to the next step. Just getting it one time isn't enough, you must prove to yourself that you are consistent, otherwise you're likely to get frustrated on the higher steps, or not get the most out of them. GLHF
Thanks man for clarifying it, I will start from Step 1 - along with The Core hotkeys which should be a good beginning for me (It's gonna be messy)
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Hooray! It will be messy for sure, but hopefully enjoyable. Please hit me up with any ideas to make this method more effective, or more fun (or both) :D
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Alright, so I just managed to Grand Master spending quality off of three bases with Master saturation speed in a vacuum (normal game speed). The tip about making (tons of) extra queens were just what I needed. I also realized how pitifully bad I was at hitting my inject timings. Three to five seconds late is brutal when you are trying for that GM spending quality and I refused to build a macro hatch unless I went to three bases. It has an added bonus of spreading creep at such a ludicrous speed across the map that your queens are actually relevant in a frontal assault. >
Upon taking a little more time to practice, trial and error brought me to the realized that I really just wanted a visualization of how to execute Zerg step 1 and 2. The older YouTube video of Zerg step one It's actually amazing just how mineral starved you can feel off of two fully saturated bases making constant lings, queens, and overlords. However, I now have more questions on "pass/fail" and learning using theStaircase.
As a Zerg, what is the checklist for deciding on whether or not to pass or fail? It would seem that only SQ and saturation speed are relevant. Currently, I feel like I could easily game the system, rush to two bases, build an in base macro hatch, and easily keep my minerals at zero (A tactic used on "theStaircase - Zerg Step 1" video from YouTube). I feel like a macro hatch is "cheating" and allows a zerg to easily stay at zero. However, I now proved to myself that you can do all that with perfect injects off of a mere two bases, but the difficulty level is much greater, and against certain early game pressures, it becomes brutally hard for my gold level skills.
- Should I be focused on playing perfectly off of two bases, and staying here for probably dozens of games or just cheat with the macro hatch and move on to the next steps? Also, is their a drawback to either method?
- As a Zerg, what is the checklist for deciding on whether or not to pass or fail? I know SQ and saturation speed are important, but what about injection percentage, creep spread, and supply blocks?
I do have one crossover question about theCore and theStaircase. I noticed I really like tapping to either a queen or a hatchery so I can keep tabs on when I need to go inject, right down to the very second. I'm finding that I like to bind my first queen by herself just to use as a reference. If I miss an inject, then I'll swap her with a hatchery.
- Is tapping to a lone queen or hatch a good way at managing injects? Is there a more optimal/simple way?
- Is there a visual cue I can use if I have bound multiple queens/hatches together to know if I need to inject?
- In theCore, what is the "optimal" way that inject timings are tracked, is their a hotkey for a lone queen that I'm missing, or should I just continue to use "=" as my go to single queen hotkey?
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EPT
