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[G] ZvT Perfect Spine placement vs 2rax Bunker

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Orek
Profile Joined February 2012
1665 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-07 06:32:27
October 08 2012 13:49 GMT
#1
[G] ZvT Perfect Spine placement vs 2rax Bunker

[image loading]
Carefully placed Spine Crawler outranges Marines in a Bunker.
Nothing new? It goes so much deeper than you would ever imagine…Trust me.


Introduction
This thread is written primarily for Zerg players, but 2raxing Terran players would find it interesting as well. As for Protoss players, I added relevant extra content at the end just to keep you around.
+ Show Spoiler +

2rax: a strategy where Terran player makes 2 barracks to pump out a large number of marines early on to pressure his opponent or outright win if possible. In TvZ, 2rax has been around for a long time. Many Zerg tears have been shed, but Zerg players have steadily adapted to 2rax builds. Although there are different styles in holding 2rax, once a bunker goes up, which is not always preventable due to terrain / good Terran micro / randomness in SCV construction movement etc., a spine crawler is often needed to hold the pressure. More often than not, Zerg player is forced to make a spine crawler at a safer place close to mineral line where it doesn’t initially reach the bunker so that it doesn’t die to marine fire while morphing, and relocate it later on. There are 2 ways to relocate a spine crawler: 1. Relocate so that the spine crawler outranges marines inside the bunker 2. Intentionally relocate the spine crawler within bunker range so that it tanks damage for hatchery/zergling/drone when going all-out ATAAAAAAACK mode vs bunker contain. While the latter is useful from time to time especially when hatchery is in range of the bunker and dying, focus fire by decent Terran player negates damage tanking by the spine crawler. Therefore, the former is the ideal spine crawler relocation most of the time. This thread primarily talks about this outranging spine crawler placement, which I call “perfect,” while I call other placements “fail.”

I think it is already a common knowledge today that spine crawler outranges marines in a bunker. Bunker increases the range of the units inside by 1 , so marine = 5range + 1range = 6range, when spine crawler = 7range. Of course, there is nothing special about outranging situation itself. There are many other cases in SC2 where one outranges another like stalker vs marine for example. What makes spine crawler vs bunker outranging situation special is that both are structures. Structures can only be placed according to grids unlike units, which completely ignore grids. Bounded by grids, x-y coordinates of structures on a map can shift to either direction only by an integer and never by a decimal. That is to say, there are only so many different structure placements relative to each other between the two. Therefore, I experimented every possible relative placement to see when outranging happens and when it doesn’t.

Some of you might have found my previous grid / sim city related guide [G] Zerg Sim City for Spire protection in ZvP useful. However, I must warn everyone here that this spine crawler vs bunker thread talks about interesting yet insanely specific topic that matters only on rare occasions. Welcome to the most extensive research on the most trifling topic in the history of SC2!!


Example Game
This is a good example of the situation I am talking about here. Only 2rax part is relevant, though it is a great game to watch to the end.
2012 MLG Winter Arena WR1 Neatea vs DeMuslim Game 3 on Shakuras Plateau.
+ Show Spoiler +

Usually, only 1 spine crawler is made when facing 2rax, but Nestea made 2 spine crawlers in this game. 1st spine crawler relocation at the bottom is what I call perfect placement. 2nd spine crawler relocation at the top is what I call fail placement. The spine crawler at the bottom outranged the bunker. On the other hand, the spine crawler at the top was taking damage while rooting. In this particular game, 2nd spine crawler did a good job at tanking damage to save the hatchery, so it is not a complete fail, but for the sake of discussion, taking damage by rooting too close = fail in this thread. More analysis later in this thread after learning more about the topic.


Graph
A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are the coordinates of perfect spine crawler placements where it outranges the bunker.

360 degrees
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

90 degrees
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

45 degrees
+ Show Spoiler +

I assume people know at least some basic math.
[image loading]


Notes
+ Show Spoiler +

Unlike BW, SC2 structures are perfectly symmetrical.(thank god buildings in SC2 “make sense”) Therefore, the graph of 45 degrees above is all anyone needs to find out the relationship between the two structures because reflection/rotation of the results within 0-45 degrees explain the rest of 315 degrees as well. Reflection across the diagonal line gives 45-90 degrees, and rotation around the center of the bunker by 90 degrees gives 90-135 degrees etc. That is, every single perfect spine crawler placement in 360 degrees can be categorized into one of these 8 green diamonds. I hope the image is self-explanatory enough. Red is bunker. Green diamond is the center of perfectly placed spine crawler (2X2 structure). The corner of the bunker is taken as the original point for x-y coordinates (yellow point). Light green merely means that such a point appears every 90 degrees instead of every 45 degrees for other 7 darker greens. 360/45 = 8 and 360/90 = 4, so total number of perfect placements is 7*8+1*4 = 60 as can be seen in the 360 degrees image. Obviously, there is no way all 60 of them are available in 2rax situation, but usually at least around 5 locations are available on creep from which Zerg player only has to pick 1 when relocating. Any location inside is too close so that marines in the bunker can fire back while rooting. Any location outside is too far so that the spine crawler cannot attack the bunker.


In-Game Image
270-360 and 0-90 images must be good enough because bunker’s graphics is almost symmetrical across vertical line but not across horizontal line. Spine crawler moves clockwise for the next picture below, starting from 270 degrees.

270-360
+ Show Spoiler +

[(7,-1) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(7,0) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(7,1) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(7,2) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(6,3) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(6,4) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(5,5) 270-360]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 315-360]
[image loading]

[(6,4) 315-360]
[image loading]

[(6,3) 315-360]
[image loading]

[(7,2) 315-360]
[image loading]

[(7,1) 315-360]
[image loading]

[(7,0) 315-360]
[image loading]

[(7,-1) 315-360]
[image loading]

0-90
+ Show Spoiler +

[(7,-1) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(7,0) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(7,1) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(7,2) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(6,3) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(6,4) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(5,5) 0-90]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 45-90]
[image loading]

[(6,4) 45-90]
[image loading]

[(6,3) 45-90]
[image loading]

[(7,2) 45-90]
[image loading]

[(7,1) 45-90]
[image loading]

[(7,0) 45-90]
[image loading]

[(7,-1) 45-90]
[image loading]


Notes
+ Show Spoiler +

Naming rule:
There are eight (6,4) placements in total because there is one every 45 degrees. [(6,4) 270-315] shows the (6,4) within 270-315 degrees. Same rule applies to other placements except for (5,5)
There are four (5,5) placements in total because there is one every 90 degrees, not 45 degrees. [(5,5) 270-360] shows the (5,5) within 270-360 degrees.

Unfortunately, white triangle dots that show the range of spine crawler are not spaced so that they are symmetrical. For whatever reason, there are 21 dots at 17.14degrees apart. This complicates distance estimation because [(6,4) 45-90] looks totally different from [(6,4) 180-225] in terms of graphical relationship between bunker and the closest white dots. Bunker's graphics can come right in between 2 dots like [(6,4) 45-90] only at certain angles, and therefore imaginary circle in your head has to be fairly accurate. Had Blizzard used 24 dots with exactly 15degrees apart, things would have been so much easier due to symmetry that would come with it.

As a general rule of thumb, imaginary circle connecting outer tips of the triangles must intersect with bunker’s graphics in order for the spine crawler to hit the bunker. In my experience, this is almost always true regardless of the camera angle. It is easier to imagine a circle with inner bases of the triangles, but using the tips seems more useful when estimating distance. Another useful rule to remember is that 0-180 spine crawlers look closer than 180-360 equivalents, especially between 45-135 and 225-315. Compare [(7,-1) 45-90] and [(7,-1) 270-315] to see the difference. (first image and last image) It is really hard to come up with any better universal rules in words due to factors like camera angle, asymmetry of bunker’s graphics for top and bottom half, discontinuous range indicator etc.


Fail Examples
There are 13 common fail placements, all of which are directly adjacent to one of 8 perfect placements: 6 for being too close, and 7 for being too far. Only 0-45 examples are uploaded here.

Close Fail
+ Show Spoiler +

[(6,-1) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(6,0) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(6,1) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(6,2) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(5,3) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(4,4) 0-90]
[image loading]

Far Fail
+ Show Spoiler +

[(8,-1) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(8,0) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(8,1) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(8,2) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(7,3) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(7,4) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(6,5) 0-45]
[image loading]


Notes
+ Show Spoiler +

Do you think they are too obvious? (4,4) every 90 degrees and others fails every 45 degrees means that 12*8+1*4 = 100 fail placements in total. 60 perfect + 100 fail =160 relevant x-y coordinates in total. Some perfect ones look like fail, and some fail ones look like perfect because of camera angle etc. Telling the difference with 100% confidence is possible with dedicated practice, but it takes at least several hours of messing around with unit tester.


(5,4) and (7,3)
These 2 placements are worth special attention for their highest difficulty in estimating distance.
At some angles, (5,4) looks as if it is too close, yet it is a perfect placement.
At some angles, (7,3) looks as if it is barely close enough to be perfect, yet it is too far.

(5,4) Perfect
+ Show Spoiler +

[(5,4) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 45-90]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 90-135]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 135-180]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 180-225]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 225-270]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(5,4) 315-360]
[image loading]

(7,3) Far fail
+ Show Spoiler +

[(7,3) 0-45]
[image loading]

[(7,3) 45-90]
[image loading]

[(7,3) 90-135]
[image loading]

[(7,3) 135-180]
[image loading]

[(7,3) 180-225]
[image loading]

[(7,3) 225-270]
[image loading]

[(7,3) 270-315]
[image loading]

[(7,3) 270-315-360]
[image loading]


More Analysis on Example Game
Now that we learned x-y coordinates, the analysis can go a little deeper.
+ Show Spoiler +

First spine crawler at the bottom was morphed at [(7,4) 180-225] which was too far to reach the bunker. Nestea relocated it to the right by 1 grid = [(6,4) 180-225]. Because hatchery and ramp limited rootable locations, the only other perfect placements available were [(5,4) 180-225] and [(5,5) 180-270] for Nestea. Although morphing spine crawler at [(6,4) 180-225] would have saved Nestea about 15sec for relocation, creep was not available at that point, so relocation was needed anyways.
Nestea relocated second spine crawler to [(6,2) 180-225] relative to the second bunker. (6,2) is one of the close fail placements as explained in this thread. [(7,2) 180-225] and [(7,1) 180-225] perfect placements were available, so the spine crawler didn’t have to take damage while rooting. [(7,1) 135-180], [(7,2) 135-180] and [(6,3) 135-180] would have been available as well if creep had spread far enough. [(7,1) 225-270] etc. were in range of the other bunker, so it was not appropriate. For example, [(7,1) 225-270] relative to the second bunker = [(5,2) 180-225] relative to the first bunker. This is Orek's analysis desk.


Quiz
Which one is the perfect spine crawler placement? Multiple correct answers are possible. Easy? Or not so easy?

Q1
+ Show Spoiler +

A
[image loading]

B
[image loading]

C
[image loading]

D
[image loading]

E
[image loading]
Answer
+ Show Spoiler +

A = [(6,2) 270-315] Close Fail
B = [(6,3) 270-315] Perfect
C = [(6,4) 270-315] Perfect
D = [(7,2) 270-315] Perfect
E = [(7,3) 270-315] Far Fail
0-180 spine crawlers look closer than 180-360 equivalents, especially between 45-135 and 225-315.
(6,2) might look far enough, but not so at this angle. On the other hand, (7,3) might be more obvious at this angle.


Q2
+ Show Spoiler +

A
[image loading]

B
[image loading]

C
[image loading]

D
[image loading]
Answer
+ Show Spoiler +

A = [(7,3) 90-135] Far Fail
B = [(6,3) 90-135] Perfect
C = [(6,3) 135-180] Perfect
D = [(7,3) 135-180] Far Fail
Again, being able to tell (7,3) is important.


Q3
+ Show Spoiler +

A
[image loading]

B
[image loading]

C
[image loading]

D
[image loading]

E
[image loading]

F
[image loading]
Answer
+ Show Spoiler +

A = [(8,-1) 90-135] Far Fail
B = [(8,0) 90-135] Far Fail
C = [(8,1) 90-135] Far Fail
D = [(7,-1) 90-135] Perfect
E = [(7,0) 90-135] Perfect
F = [(7,1) 90-135] Perfect
If you thought ABC were perfect and DEF were close fail, remember once again that 0-180 spine crawlers look closer than 180-360 equivalents, especially between 45-135 and 225-315. This is a good example of how close they look.



Photon Cannon version
Oh, you cannon rush a Terran? Then this is for you. Note that photon cannon is bigger than spine crawler (did you know?), so it has to be placed slightly farther. No in-game image for this one. Download unit tester and play around by yourself.
+ Show Spoiler +

360 degrees
[image loading]

90 degrees
[image loading]

45 degrees
[image loading]

BUUUUUT once a marauder (= 6+1 =7 range) is out, this is entirely useless.


Final Thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +

Well, I didn’t mean to go this deep when I started the research. After spending tons of hours into this research, it is safe to say that I have deeper understanding of spine crawler placement vs bunker than anyone else in the world as of writing. If GSL spine crawler placement competition were held, it would make me rich. I don’t really expect anyone to spend as much time as I did on this seemingly unimportant aspect of the game. However, if you are a full-time pro, it doesn’t hurt to spend a few hours with unit tester to get the hang of it while referencing this thread. Or, upon misplacing a spine crawler in your game, checking replay to see how you failed might be helpful in future so as not to repeat the same mistake. No one has reached the level of “that was (7,3) so I wasted about 15 seconds by having to relocate spine crawler twice. It should have been (7,2) or (6,3).” If one has to face a 2rax lover in Code S final, maybe that’s the level of analysis required by coach/teammates in practice. Anyways, thanks for reading to the end. Feedback/correction is much appreciated. Check other thorough researches of mine linked below which are far more useful than ultra trifling topic I chose for this thread. You won’t regret.


Orek's Articles/Guides
+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler [Article etc.] +

BitByBit Fan Club
A bit on BitByBit
IlIlIlIlIlIl or lIlIlIlIlIlI?
Optimal Creep Spread in Theory
Various Businesses in Starcraft 2
Balance Discussion Math(Best of N format analysis)
Underground Activities in Starcraft 2
Artosis pylon Art
Map Size History & Analysis
Larva disappearing Glitch in 1.5 (not about 20th larva)


+ Show Spoiler [Guide] +

[G] Walling Mechanics
[G] Unit/Structure Selection Priority
[G] ~8% faster gas mining
[G] ZvT Perfect Spine placement vs 2rax Bunker
[G] Zerg Sim City for Spire protection in ZvP
[G]Health Bar Color
[G]Map Distance & Travel Time

osiris17
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States165 Posts
October 08 2012 14:23 GMT
#2
Ty very much.
Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. - sun tzu
PlacidPanda
Profile Joined September 2011
United States246 Posts
October 08 2012 14:41 GMT
#3
Another Great post from our resident building expert! This is really interesting and revealed some things i certainly didn't know about the way units out range eachother and how this changes when buildings come into the equation. Great post keep it up
Squirtle Hwaitting!!
Maxilicious
Profile Joined May 2011
221 Posts
October 08 2012 14:44 GMT
#4
Great article. Well done.
http://terrancraft.com/
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
October 08 2012 14:48 GMT
#5
Really great article. I think the 3 quizzes near the end are really helpful for illustrating your point. These sorts of things can be the difference between winning and losing games, so it's awesome when someone spends the time to look into it at such depth.

As for the cannon -- cannons are 2x2 (in terms of the SC2 building grid), so is there a reason why in your images for them you show them as 3x3? Are spine crawlers really slightly smaller than 2x2 (neighboring spines don't form a tight wall against lings, for example), or are cannons really slightly bigger than 2x2?

Thanks for the great read!
DKR
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom622 Posts
October 08 2012 16:39 GMT
#6
Awesome article, been a while since something useful and interesting has been posted!
"1 base. Cheese man." - MKP. "[MVP] is not stylistic, his style is winning, which is the style you want to have." - Artosis
Nightsz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada398 Posts
October 08 2012 16:52 GMT
#7
Great guide.
But along came illusion...

sc2chronic
Profile Joined May 2012
United States777 Posts
October 08 2012 20:40 GMT
#8
interesting read..

also you should include the bit about marauders effectively making this useless into the main notes and not just in the cannon version, because they outrange the spine as well.
terrible, terrible, damage
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
October 08 2012 20:57 GMT
#9
Wow great work. Completely crazy, but great work.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
shizaep
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2920 Posts
October 08 2012 22:06 GMT
#10
Lol, I always love your ridiculously detailed posts with a huge amount of work put into them. This post is for sure something noteworthy to for people who want to polish their game.
You mean I just write stuff here and other people can see it?
TheGreenMachine
Profile Joined March 2010
United States730 Posts
October 08 2012 22:30 GMT
#11
On October 09 2012 01:52 Nightsz wrote:
Great guide.
But along came illusion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk81D2_FwSA

Holy crap.........

oh and really nice guide!! I was wondering why sometimes my spine can be hit and other times it cant, its a very fine line apparently.
Don't forget to get everyone you know to play HOTS so this game we love called Starcraft will live on. Every little bit helps. ^^
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
October 08 2012 22:59 GMT
#12
important stuff for high level zergs, good post
snively
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1159 Posts
October 08 2012 23:41 GMT
#13
On October 08 2012 22:49 Orek wrote:
Welcome to the most extensive research on the most trifling topic in the history of SC2!!


i loled

you put a lot of work into this, and its very impressive
dont be so modest, its not exactly the MOST trifling topic in the history of sc2
(anyone remember the extractor butt holes thread?)
My religion is Starcraft
Cokefreak
Profile Joined June 2011
Finland8095 Posts
October 08 2012 23:44 GMT
#14
Very helpful thanks, this should help me hold some bronze bunker rushes easier.
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 00:02:56
October 09 2012 00:02 GMT
#15
Nice guide, but sadly that illusion bunker micro outshines everything. That fucker has some mouse control lol.

Retardedly in depth guide, wow. In a very good way.
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
reikai
Profile Joined January 2011
United States359 Posts
October 09 2012 00:07 GMT
#16
Now we just need the compliment to this guide:

[G] Asshole Bunker Placement :D
Et Ducit Mundum Per Luce. :T:
Blezza
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom191 Posts
October 09 2012 00:13 GMT
#17
Brilliant article. Well written, informative and just an all round good read . I've learnt a lot!
Winners race > Other race I don't play > My race. How Twitch chat work in tournaments...
Lolimaiko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States29 Posts
October 09 2012 00:23 GMT
#18
Last quiz completely threw me off. Very nice write up.
Susceptible to lolis
poeticEnnui
Profile Joined September 2010
United States78 Posts
October 09 2012 02:30 GMT
#19
Illusion's bunker micro. What in the name of I don't even that was absolutely sick.

Kinda makes spine placement irrelevant, yeah?
BigRedDog
Profile Joined May 2012
461 Posts
October 09 2012 03:24 GMT
#20
Thanks for taking the time to research on spine placement against 2 rax.
Big Red Dog!
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