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SeraKuDA
Canada343 Posts
Commentators focus so much on unit counts and compositions, but those are such tiny pieces of the puzzle. What matters most is who has more information and who better uses that information to score small victories before that final fight. This is so true. | ||
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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
TL needs more guides like this. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Absurd Bunny
168 Posts
I don't plant observers in corners of the map, and early and somewhat midgame I feel safe with using the observer on their army, but more lategame-when they start to get turrets, I don't feel safe around their army. Not thinking this is a rare occasion because it has happened to me a lot, there are times when my army isn't positioned to be able to see drops, or the xel naga towers can't reach it, or he cuts all corners to make me not able to see it, but what are ways to know when a drop is coming or good ways to defend against it? Should I be keeping templars at my base, should I build cannons, or what? I don't feel that it is a good idea to bring my army all the way back, mostly because I give away good map control, or I leave and allow him to get map control or harass something else that's undefended because my army is at a different spot. | ||
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Kurimlinn
United States49 Posts
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rikter
United States352 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 22 2012 19:29 rikter wrote: I realize that, its just in my experience the disparity between P and T is at its biggest right at 15 min or so, with the comp I mentioned. Its hard to deflect that push. Not saying its the only way, but just throwing it out there, bc I think its the scariest thing toss can do The entire purpose of this thread is to discuss what happens when that kind of push doesn't actually end the game, so I have no idea why you're beating this dead horse. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
In my experience though, toss dictates the lategame with his super army and ridiculous warpgate count, so im kinda surprised the guide was about dink and dunk harass techniques instead of on cornering T and AoE him to death or abusing instant remax. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On September 22 2012 20:11 rikter wrote: To be fair, the purpose is a little vague, since it doesnt assume how you got to the lategame in the first place. These strategies seem more like what I as a terran am trying to do, i.e. split up protoss army because you cant take it in a straight up fight. Its not as hard for T to deflect the harass attempts bc they just need a bunker with a couple marines and a turret, but yeh, it can be irritating. In my experience though, toss dictates the lategame with his super army and ridiculous warpgate count, so im kinda surprised the guide was about dink and dunk harass techniques instead of on cornering T and AoE him to death or abusing instant remax. He's linked other guides to get to lategame in the first sentence... | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 22 2012 20:20 rikter wrote: Links to other guides are not the same as stating explicitly this is what has been done. Just sayin. Anyways, im not trying to badmouth the guide in any way, im just a little surprised about some of the things im reading, and am interested in talking about it a bit so that mb I can improve my TvP. It doesn't really matter how you get to late-game. I'm just giving some tips and analysis for how to win a game where both players are on 3+ bases and neither one can just go kill the other. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
Regarding the guide, those are all good suggestions btw, I have fought against them and they can make a difference, since its easier for you to execute than it is for them to defend. The random pylons/obeservers on the map are a big part of stopping drops. Its really easy to spot an observer tailing your army, but an observer out in a dead spot on the map is damn near impossible to spot. One of my big weapons against a toss Army I cant take straight up is to wait for him to push a third of the way across the map and doom drop him, but it only works if you dont get spotted. Regarding kiting in multiple places, its possible to do on minimap, but in the situations described with the warp prism or proxy pylon harass, its easy enough to switch your rally to the point of attack, and a-move them real quick. Storm dropping, on the other hand, is brutal. I think its a good guide, my questions were in many ways about some of the experiences people had posted about in this thread. | ||
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Risljaninasim
Netherlands228 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 23 2012 06:01 rikter wrote: Yeah, I wasnt even responding to the guide so much as I was the comments of some of the other posters...Im kind of curious how they find themselves in the situations they described, because in my TvP experience, when it gets to the late game, one of us just dies. OK, that's fair. What you were saying makes a whole lot more sense, now. Regarding the guide, those are all good suggestions btw, I have fought against them and they can make a difference, since its easier for you to execute than it is for them to defend. The random pylons/obeservers on the map are a big part of stopping drops. Its really easy to spot an observer tailing your army, but an observer out in a dead spot on the map is damn near impossible to spot. One of my big weapons against a toss Army I cant take straight up is to wait for him to push a third of the way across the map and doom drop him, but it only works if you dont get spotted. The way that I personally like to play the late-game of all 3 match-ups is to put pylons all around the map because it's a lot like creep spread; you have vision all over the place, you have easy reinforcement access, and you can even put cannons down to take over territories of interest. I think the Terran (in the case of PvT) should be trying to hunt down pylons, just like he would try to cut down creep spread in TvZ, and for very similar reasons. You can take one dropship around the map and clean up those pylons, killing stuff for free and also actively slowing down the protoss warp-in harassment or positional flank reinforcements. I actually have been doing something similar to the doom drop, but with blink stalkers, Colossi, and/or Carriers (and preferably also a warp prism, if I can help it). On some maps--especially Cloud Kingdom--I like taking my whole army and just rolling over a cliff into Terran's main and camping his production. The buildings all get in the way of his army, just like force fields, giving me really sick army positioning if he decides to engage. And if I find myself in a point in time when I don't really want to take the fight anymore because I'm at a disadvantage or I want to just recharge shields, I can just blink out and abuse his lack of mobility in the situation. What's he going to do, elevator out? There's an army of ranged units on the bottom of the cliff, ready to snipe the medivacs.... | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 23 2012 20:33 Xequecal wrote: What do you do against Terrans that just turtle on 3 or 4 bases, and then just spend the next 10 minutes continuously scanning you and observer sniping looking for a hole? It's really hard to prevent observer after observer from getting sniped by vikings, and eventually they make a hole where you have no detection, cloak up the ghosts, emp everything, snipe all your templar, and then completely roll you with 30 vikings + mass marines and losing almost nothing. Even if you have 5 bases and tons of resources and 50 gates, colossi still take time to build and templar need time to get energy, and you just get completely and utterly rolled over. One thing I like to do is emulate zerg spine/spore creep-based pushes by inching pylons forward in opportune spots (at choke points, at the top of ramps, at potential expansions, etc.) and putting a couple cannons and a HT there; sometimes even a DT as well. This is a supply-efficient way of covering spaces on the map with detection against ghosts, forcing the terran to send more than just a couple of unmicroed units in to handle it. There's a point when territory actually becomes relevant for the sake of just being a road well-traveled, and that's when I like to defend key sections as though they were almost as important as an expansion or a key production/tech structure. I also think that, once you hit max and the game goes turtley and long, you should go up to 4+ robos. It's not excessive; you're going to be sitting at max and you can spare the money. Then you have the capability to look at your opponent's composition and remax with the correct units, not just gateway units and only 2 robo's worth of Colossi. It's way better to just overmake your production and then be able to build 6 colossi at once, or 5 immortals and a warp prism, or to be able to build 3 Colossi and 2 Observers simultaneously. Nobody ever thinks twice about going up to 15-20 gateways in the late game, but there's a stigma attached to going up to half a dozen robos. Why? It's a 0 supply way to improve your army in clutch tempo situations during long games. Pay the 300-400 gas and get more robos. | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
When on the offensive have 1 or 2 observers with your main army and one trailing near by, preferably behind where your retreat path is. If he manages to snipe your observers with the main army you just fall back to the one behind it. So many times terran will think you don't have detection and then he runs into this, and gets all his ghosts feedbacked before he realizes what's going on. Really splitting up your death ball is key for effective late game PvT. You should never have all your detection or HTs clumped up in one spot. The risk is just too high. | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
http://drop.sc/257308 The relevant part is at 22:20, when he snipes my observers and charges in with ghosts. Forgive the overall noobishness of the game otherwise  | ||
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DropTester
Australia608 Posts
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