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Remember that Terran can only kite in one spot on the map at a time
Ummm...I'm nowhere near pro and I can stutter-step two groups via the mini-map...Not optimally of course (I would be better if I played more Terran bio though I'm random and I tend to mech as T) and only towards basically the same spot on the map, but it's not especially difficult, IMO.
Not saying that makes these tactics any worse, just merely pointing out that good Terrans can sometimes kite in two places at once (pro players can probably do more groups than this, I've never attempted practicing more than 2) - depending on the location of their armies and the directions they each need to go.
EDIT: In case people don't know about this method of stutter-step/kiting, you can drop in the main and push up the front at the same time and kite away from defending units in the main and towards the front door on the natural pretty easily on some maps (Antiga, cloud kingdom) by right-clicking on the mini-map at the back of the main and hitting s to stop (so they fire). I control both armies seperately but it's impossible for me to click rapidly in very different locations, so I kite both armies (at alternating stop times) towards the same or nearby locations on the map.
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Thanks guys for the kind words.
And I love how people keep commenting about deathball vs deathball. Seriously guys, it just doesn't matter in 99% of games. My games never reach deathball vs deathball. Pro games almost never reach deathball vs deathball. Both sides want to mass expand, split up their armies and do small constant attacks to stop their opponent's mass expanding. Deathballs only happen when you aren't active with your forces.
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On September 20 2012 22:32 althaz wrote:Ummm...I'm nowhere near pro and I can stutter-step two groups via the mini-map...Not optimally of course (I would be better if I played more Terran bio though I'm random and I tend to mech as T) and only towards basically the same spot on the map, but it's not especially difficult, IMO. Not saying that makes these tactics any worse, just merely pointing out that good Terrans can sometimes kite in two places at once (pro players can probably do more groups than this, I've never attempted practicing more than 2) - depending on the location of their armies and the directions they each need to go. EDIT: In case people don't know about this method of stutter-step/kiting, you can drop in the main and push up the front at the same time and kite away from defending units in the main and towards the front door on the natural pretty easily on some maps (Antiga, cloud kingdom) by right-clicking on the mini-map at the back of the main and hitting s to stop (so they fire). I control both armies seperately but it's impossible for me to click rapidly in very different locations, so I kite both armies (at alternating stop times) towards the same or nearby locations on the map.
Interesting, thanks for pointing that out. Still, microing multiple spots from the minimap isn't going to be nearly as effective as microing one spot with 100% focus, and Protoss has an advantage in that they don't have to micro chargelots to trade well. The more you force Terran to micro elsewhere, the less he can EMP your templar, snipe your colossi with vikings, spread his units against splash damage, etc. It's almost always good to send a pack of chargelots at a base before an army engagement.
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Great guide, useful guide for everyone because even high master protosses don't always understand how to play lategame pvt.
Dark templars are the best thing you can get in lategame pvt, 8 dts snipe a planetary/orbital in seconds, and continuous main army attacks followed by a dt warpin at one of his freshest expansion can kill any terran.
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On September 21 2012 00:48 Arcanefrost wrote:
Great guide, useful guide for everyone because even high master protosses don't always understand how to play lategame pvt.
Dark templars are the best thing you can get in lategame pvt, 8 dts snipe a planetary/orbital in seconds, and continuous main army attacks followed by a dt warpin at one of his freshest expansion can kill any terran.
There's always more to learn. I know I wouldn't have thought to do Parting's templar + counter-attack play in that spot on CK, and I'll be looking to add that element to my game now. Every map will have zones where you can gain an advantage if you slow Terran's movement through those zones, and if you plan those tactics out ahead of time, you'll be able to use them more effecitvely in a game.
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Thank you for the guide. This has given me a lot to think about and I'm definitely going to try and add these ideas on top of the templar build your other guide has already taught me.
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I just got an idea -- why is it that Protoss very seldom get a mothership in PvT, but is so prevalent in PvZ? Vortex is never disadvantageous for the protoss to use, especially when you have a few archons in the mix. It either divides the terran army into pieces, or forces his whole army into a single focused position. This would make for really great storms, archon and colossus splash. In addition, it would force a second stim since the first would wear off inside the vortex. Lastly, it could provide a last second panic escape button to allow your army to retreat. All this from the vortex, not the say the least about the possibilities from recall.
I fully expect you guys to just shut it down for whatever reason, but to me it's an interesting idea and something that could be experimented with.
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United States8477 Posts
On September 21 2012 06:34 happyft wrote:
I just got an idea -- why is it that Protoss very seldom get a mothership in PvT, but is so prevalent in PvZ? Vortex is never disadvantageous for the protoss to use, especially when you have a few archons in the mix. It either divides the terran army into pieces, or forces his whole army into a single focused position. This would make for really great storms, archon and colossus splash. In addition, it would force a second stim since the first would wear off inside the vortex. Lastly, it could provide a last second panic escape button to allow your army to retreat. All this from the vortex, not the say the least about the possibilities from recall.
I fully expect you guys to just shut it down for whatever reason, but to me it's an interesting idea and something that could be experimented with.
Short answer is ghosts(emp) and vikings. Both outrange vortex by a very fair margin, so Mothership usually ends up being really useless, really expensive paperweight.
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On September 21 2012 06:36 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 06:34 happyft wrote:
I just got an idea -- why is it that Protoss very seldom get a mothership in PvT, but is so prevalent in PvZ? Vortex is never disadvantageous for the protoss to use, especially when you have a few archons in the mix. It either divides the terran army into pieces, or forces his whole army into a single focused position. This would make for really great storms, archon and colossus splash. In addition, it would force a second stim since the first would wear off inside the vortex. Lastly, it could provide a last second panic escape button to allow your army to retreat. All this from the vortex, not the say the least about the possibilities from recall.
I fully expect you guys to just shut it down for whatever reason, but to me it's an interesting idea and something that could be experimented with. Short answer is ghosts(emp) and vikings. Both outrange vortex by a very fair margin, so Mothership usually ends up being really useless, really expensive paperweight.
Not to mention that it uses 8 supply while Protoss is already 20-30 or even 40 supply down in army by lategame because of the Terran sacrificing a part of his SCVs.
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It's also really slow, so even if it were worth a damn, Terran would just attack where it wasn't. Imagine how useless a mothership would be in a PvZ where you were on 6 bases and Zerg only had speedlings, corruptors and drop tech.
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Great guide definitely going to be doing these things when I can get a working computer to play again.
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wow i lernt alot, thx for tipz
i am goin to implament it al in my gempley
thans for tip
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A game I just played (not great play on either end frankly), but it shows how easy it is to pick a Terran apart just by abusing warp-in mobility. If you watch my camera from 15:00 and on, you'll see that I'm constantly attacking, but I spend almost all of my clicks on spreading pylons and macroing. My camera spends all of about 10 total seconds on his side of the map for the entire game, and I did literally zero micro.
http://drop.sc/256264
My opponent was mid-masters which is about my skill level right now. My APM is still about 15-20 points lower than it was before I quit....
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KCDC I love you. Thank god you play Protoss and give us such good insights. Hahah too bad there's no good blue Zerg and Terran poster like you. Good job.
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I watched the replay kcdc. Really good stuff.
This really showcases a flaw in Terran play that you can exploit, and it pertains even in high level and pro level play. Many Terrans don't split their armies well, or at all like in this example. You will see even pros throw 100 supply worth of units into defending a harass from 2 DTs. This harass heavy play really exploits that, and it keeps Terran contained in their base at a time where they can still make strong timing attacks and/or drops. Hell if you added a warp prism to drop in the main or natural at the same time it would just be adding insult to injury 
Also nice defense in the beginning. Proving once again that 2 gates can hold most kinds of early pressure.
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Many Terrans don't split their armies well, or at all like in this example. You will see even pros throw 100 supply worth of units into defending a harass from 2 DTs. This harass heavy play really exploits that, and it keeps Terran contained in their base at a time where they can still make strong timing attacks and/or drops.
The play can be even stronger than just putting pressure on to force them to make a mistake splitting their forces, especially if you have the option to warp-in close to their bases. You get to pick where your next round of forces spawns whereas Terran has to allocate his forces in advance. That means if Terran only commits enough troops to deal with what's already pressuring him, you reactively warp in 10+ zealots to bolster that side of the attack. And if he commits enough troops to beat what's already there plus a potential round of warp-ins, you pull that side of your attack back while reinforcing the other side. And of course if he dedicates enough troops to clean up both sides of your harass + warp-ins, his main army will be very small.
If have a warp prism to warp-in right at the battle, this mobility abuse is even stronger. And if you throw an HT in the warp prism to surprise his defensive task force with a storm (I'm not good enough to do this consistently), it's just about impossible for Terran to react properly.
To give you an idea of how far you can take this mobility abuse tactic, I used to play a style where I would endlessly warp in back and forth on opposite sides of Terran's base, dropping a probe to build pylons while he defended my zealots. Terran wouldn't even be spread out--he'd have just 2 bases to defend, and by abusing my free reign to warp in all over his base and the time it would take for him to swing forces from one end of his main to the other, I'd kill him with nothing but zealots. The style was fun, but as you can imagine, I found that it was ultimately much stronger to use the tactic in late-game where Terran is more spread out, I have the economy to burn through zealots, and I have the tech up to survive a counter-attack.
Also nice defense in the beginning. Proving once again that 2 gates can hold most kinds of early pressure.
Haha, yeah, just ignore the first half. I've only played a handful of PvT's on Daybreak, and I didn't realize you could loop marines around the watchtowers and hit from behind like he did. If I'd put a spotter pylon down there, I wouldn't have taken any damage. But as it happened, he did a really weak rush and I did a really bad defense, so we came out roughly even.
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Something I try to do in large fights against Terrans is to send a Warp Prism with a 75+energy sentry in it behind enemy lines, then use a big zealot warp-in to create large surface area with guardian shield coming from both ends, forming a big surround. Generally speaking, you want shuttle speed and if you could put HTs in there that only makes it better. There's also the option of dropping a colossus or a pair of immortals, depending on how marine- or marauder-heavy your opponent's force is. If you think about it, a Warp Prism is only the price of 2 Zealots and the supply of one Zealot, but it can completely overhaul the power level of about 8 zealots warped in and really mess up your opponent's kiting due to surrounds. I think having a pair of Prisms in major fights is totally worth the supply.
I'm a bit hungover, so hopefully this tactic came out comprehensively on paper...it's really useful; I hope it helps some other people with their games.
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I am actually really surprised by all the players that have trouble vs T, and games going super late and all that. By 15 min you should be on collossus/templar, with 3-3 about to finish. This is a hard comp for T to fight against, since you basically have to kite with 2 groups (bio and viking) plus cast spells with a third (ghost) and this wont work either if you just run out of map. Plus, your upgrades are way ahead, with huge aoe in the collosus, archon nd storm, and no way is T mega maxed at 15 min.
Even if you battle him and dont crush him right away, just use his viking count to plan your next move. If he has a lot of vikings you dont rebuild collos and make templars instead. If he doesnt have vikings then you make collosus.
Medivac push can be a little scary, but a handful of stalkers in main and zealot sentry down low can stop both the drops and gaurd the nat with forcefield. Just make sure you have some vision on the map so if you see an early push coming you have time to respond.
I play Terran and this is the kind of stuff that causes me huge problems. I can hold Ps early pressures, but that 15 minute timing I described is just brutal, especially with instant reinforcing and an upgrade advantage.
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On September 22 2012 10:10 rikter wrote:
I am actually really surprised by all the players that have trouble vs T, and games going super late and all that. By 15 min you should be on collossus/templar, with 3-3 about to finish. This is a hard comp for T to fight against, since you basically have to kite with 2 groups (bio and viking) plus cast spells with a third (ghost) and this wont work either if you just run out of map. Plus, your upgrades are way ahead, with huge aoe in the collosus, archon nd storm, and no way is T mega maxed at 15 min.
Even if you battle him and dont crush him right away, just use his viking count to plan your next move. If he has a lot of vikings you dont rebuild collos and make templars instead. If he doesnt have vikings then you make collosus.
Medivac push can be a little scary, but a handful of stalkers in main and zealot sentry down low can stop both the drops and gaurd the nat with forcefield. Just make sure you have some vision on the map so if you see an early push coming you have time to respond.
I play Terran and this is the kind of stuff that causes me huge problems. I can hold Ps early pressures, but that 15 minute timing I described is just brutal, especially with instant reinforcing and an upgrade advantage.
Deflecting drops and winning with one big push with lots of splash damage is the opposite of what this guide advises.
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EPT
