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On August 06 2012 15:00 dynwar7 wrote:Thanks yoshi. By the way I am only curious in TvT  VS p and z I just go bio. Also, what is your advice for a bio player who wants to drop and sees 120 turrets? lol. Basically, if there are many turrets, is it just impossible for bio to drop? Other than usind raven PDD that is. Night, what do you think?
Drop on low ground, snipe turrets, land on high ground. If the turrets are too far from the cliff for you to snipe from the bottom, then just drop on the high ground and tank the damage. If you kill the turrets it's all good.
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You can also nuke turrets from the low ground (if there is so many turrets its probably lategame,and lategame TvT often includes nuke)
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Well when I play bio against mech I do my best to get air dominance, because then I can get banshees, ravens and battlecruisers. Then I'll also get ghosts for nukes. Something I saw MVP do in a gsl final was use ravens to stop the turrets, then dropped ghosts and thors. He used the ghosts to drop 3 or 4 nukes on his opponents production.
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Weakness of mech is that you can't power through mistakes. The style typically emphasizes more decision-based skill rather than mechanical. In tvz if you make 3 thors thinking you need them to fight zerg's broodlords instead of 1 thor and 2 tanks you may find yourself overrun by roach. There's no "oops I didn't make exactly what I needed, I'll just micro really well and multitask a couple drops at same time". In tvt you may max and push out and just crush through the bio's army, but having left too little defense at home you lose all of your factories and can't quite kill him with your push, letting him kill you on both fronts. In tvp you may have your lyyna quotas of numbers and think "great, it's bc production time!" and failing to scout protoss' immortal/archon mix you get run over as the first insignificant bcs come out since you didn't make 3banshee and 2 more tanks instead. When Protoss is attacking you at 2 completely different spots at once it can be very difficult to quickly and appropriately split up your army to efficiently win or at least just hold on both fronts. Personally I don't have any trouble getting to midgame or lategame; that's probably a matter of scouting, using units well, and making smart decisions.
What I find difficult is the proper endgame army control priorities, positioning, and proper reinforcement compositions. I've lost tvzs where I was winning all game and decide it's a good time to start bc production and lose to mass corruptors because I don't have the raven energy/count and zerg has too much money. Or I'll be in a great spot tvp all game until it comes down to one fight that protoss is initiating and I'll blunder my control a bit and just lose the game instantly to a single moment of miscontrol instead of winning the game as a result of my patience and smart decisions. While the same thing certainly happens in bio as well I think it's more disheartening with mech since you have to be so smart and patient to get that far in the game. With bio you had timing windows and opportunities to exploit that you didn't for whatever reason and that the summation of your total mechanical successes and failures for the game lead to the result. So you can look at the game and easily see how you can do better next game, and by simply not missing your timing window you can end a game quickly by improving your macro and scouting, etc. With the mech scenario you can have done everything correctly and taken advantage of your timing windows and that the scenario inevitably lead to that endgame fight, which means the only way to correct your control error is to play out the entire game again and get back to that scenario and then you get to experiment with different positioning or priorities or general control and hope it works out again.
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On August 06 2012 17:30 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Weakness of mech is that you can't power through mistakes. The style typically emphasizes more decision-based skill rather than mechanical. In tvz if you make 3 thors thinking you need them to fight zerg's broodlords instead of 1 thor and 2 tanks you may find yourself overrun by roach. There's no "oops I didn't make exactly what I needed, I'll just micro really well and multitask a couple drops at same time". In tvt you may max and push out and just crush through the bio's army, but having left too little defense at home you lose all of your factories and can't quite kill him with your push, letting him kill you on both fronts. In tvp you may have your lyyna quotas of numbers and think "great, it's bc production time!" and failing to scout protoss' immortal/archon mix you get run over as the first insignificant bcs come out since you didn't make 3banshee and 2 more tanks instead. When Protoss is attacking you at 2 completely different spots at once it can be very difficult to quickly and appropriately split up your army to efficiently win or at least just hold on both fronts. Personally I don't have any trouble getting to midgame or lategame; that's probably a matter of scouting, using units well, and making smart decisions.
What I find difficult is the proper endgame army control priorities, positioning, and proper reinforcement compositions. I've lost tvzs where I was winning all game and decide it's a good time to start bc production and lose to mass corruptors because I don't have the raven energy/count and zerg has too much money. Or I'll be in a great spot tvp all game until it comes down to one fight that protoss is initiating and I'll blunder my control a bit and just lose the game instantly to a single moment of miscontrol instead of winning the game as a result of my patience and smart decisions. While the same thing certainly happens in bio as well I think it's more disheartening with mech since you have to be so smart and patient to get that far in the game. With bio you had timing windows and opportunities to exploit that you didn't for whatever reason and that the summation of your total mechanical successes and failures for the game lead to the result. So you can look at the game and easily see how you can do better next game, and by simply not missing your timing window you can end a game quickly by improving your macro and scouting, etc. With the mech scenario you can have done everything correctly and taken advantage of your timing windows and that the scenario inevitably lead to that endgame fight, which means the only way to correct your control error is to play out the entire game again and get back to that scenario and then you get to experiment with different positioning or priorities or general control and hope it works out again.
Great points, I totally agree on the decision making part. It's so different than bio or marine tank, and I love the diversity of styles and strategies. Having the right composition to survive each fight can be tricky (especially in TvP I feel, unless you play a thor/banshee heavier style which I feel is more flexible than tank/hellion). Not simply because you might lose the battle and thus the game by having a slightly wrong composition, but because, as Night has mentioned, since you can't rely on really good micro to make more out of your units, you have to have as perfect a composition (and position of course) as you can to make the most of your army. But knowing whether you should have 20 hellions and 15 tanks or 30 hellions and 10 tanks or such can be a really hard decision, yet it will make a small difference which will quickly snowball after each successive fight.
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When are you going to be streaming again Yoshi? I watched a load of yr vids on twitch yesterday and your builds are great.
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Night what league are you? I'm going to put your stream in the list.
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Mech people, or just any Terrans really, I see people saying Air control is crucial in TvT. But for what? Other than giving tanks extra range, what else? Perhaps so banshees cant kill your tanks, and vs bio you can kill the medivacs?
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On August 06 2012 22:50 dynwar7 wrote:
Mech people, or just any Terrans really, I see people saying Air control is crucial in TvT. But for what? Other than giving tanks extra range, what else? Perhaps so banshees cant kill your tanks, and vs bio you can kill the medivacs?
You can get marine/marauder drop on your tankline when you can't repel the medivacs. You've got no marines when you play mech, so for this thread all TvT needs aircontrol! Thors are few and far between so you wont have enough to stop medivacs dumping bio or even tanks on your tankline and you will not trade efficiently because all you tanks will damage themselves with each other's splash damage.
Vikings make sure some medivacs die enroute to your tanks so you won't trade that badly. Its really the #1 way to stop drops on your tanks which is the #1 way for you to lose an engagement to bio even when you are sieged up.
Banshees will slowly kill your tanks so you only need 2 or so vikings for that.
If you look from the opponent's perspective, he has to go around your tanks or over them. Dropping on tanks is an easy way to win as a bio-player, so he'll do that if you allow him to. High level players will try to draw away your vikings with a drop somewhere else. MMA (bio) showed this against Supernova (mech) on Ohana, where he constantly got the vikings out of position to drop on sieged up tanks, eventually winning the game in engagements against mech (hard to do). So you want vikings babysitting your tanks.
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On August 06 2012 22:50 dynwar7 wrote:
Mech people, or just any Terrans really, I see people saying Air control is crucial in TvT. But for what? Other than giving tanks extra range, what else? Perhaps so banshees cant kill your tanks, and vs bio you can kill the medivacs?
I already answered that =/
Masters for now, kollin.
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On August 07 2012 03:32 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 22:50 dynwar7 wrote:
Mech people, or just any Terrans really, I see people saying Air control is crucial in TvT. But for what? Other than giving tanks extra range, what else? Perhaps so banshees cant kill your tanks, and vs bio you can kill the medivacs? I already answered that =/ Masters for now, kollin.
Alright thanks, adding you in!
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On August 06 2012 19:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
When are you going to be streaming again Yoshi? I watched a load of yr vids on twitch yesterday and your builds are great.
Hmm, I've been playing Dota 2 a lot so I haven't been playing as much SC2 recently, but I think I'll stream some within a few hours from now.
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I can never get any viewers on my stream, how do you guys succeed?
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I'm really lost when meching against Zerg, I can mech better in TvP then I can TvZ strangely enough. I can turtle and get to 4 bases, but sometimes i just get rolled by hive tech, broodlord/infestor/ling and then ultimately an ultra switch. I just don't get it, I really want to mech TvZ and I know it can be viable, but I just have no clue how to pull it off.
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On August 07 2012 05:47 Crowned wrote:
I'm really lost when meching against Zerg, I can mech better in TvP then I can TvZ strangely enough. I can turtle and get to 4 bases, but sometimes i just get rolled by hive tech, broodlord/infestor/ling and then ultimately an ultra switch. I just don't get it, I really want to mech TvZ and I know it can be viable, but I just have no clue how to pull it off.
Can you give us some clues to your composition? A replay or too would be nice as well, so we can see where the really big issues are.
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United Kingdom12043 Posts
On August 07 2012 05:47 Crowned wrote:
I'm really lost when meching against Zerg, I can mech better in TvP then I can TvZ strangely enough. I can turtle and get to 4 bases, but sometimes i just get rolled by hive tech, broodlord/infestor/ling and then ultimately an ultra switch. I just don't get it, I really want to mech TvZ and I know it can be viable, but I just have no clue how to pull it off.
I was getting rolled yesterday with mech vs zerg but I found out with zerg if you get so many 3-3 tanks and a load of barracks walls to stop lings you can basically hold off anything as long as your viking control is good enough to stop fungals.
Saying that though I just had a 1:26:00 minute TvZ in which every base on the map bar one got mined out. I really should have won but I was too scared of fungals on my vikings >_<
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Ghosts are necessary for sniping and emping infestors. Try to be aggressive before broodlords are out, clearing tumors and pressuring expos if nothing else. Try to position a PF and turrets to where you expect the fight to be. This is easier on some maps than others. Nuke expos as is possible. Use hellions to scout his unit mix so that your next production cycle is correct.
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Damn this thread is awsome.
Also whats a good standard opener TvP with mech for ladder that is safe against most cheese and gets a expo up at a reasonable time?
Thanks!
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United Kingdom12043 Posts
On August 07 2012 06:21 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Ghosts are necessary for sniping and emping infestors. Try to be aggressive before broodlords are out, clearing tumors and pressuring expos if nothing else. Try to position a PF and turrets to where you expect the fight to be. This is easier on some maps than others. Nuke expos as is possible. Use hellions to scout his unit mix so that your next production cycle is correct.
Thanks for the ghost advice, I always thought of it, but then never did anything about it.
I think I definately played too passive in the game of mine, but wow it really showed the cost effectiveness of mech that game. he'd send his whole ground army in, get 2 tanks and lose everything. I eventually lost because he managed to get the last mining base and he got a really nice fungal on my vikings >_<
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On August 07 2012 06:21 eXeprOxy wrote:
Damn this thread is awsome.
Also whats a good standard opener TvP with mech for ladder that is safe against most cheese and gets a expo up at a reasonable time?
Thanks!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15669283
http://drop.sc/packs/1269
Ton of replays of me. My favourite "standard" tvp opening is thor cc (or cc thor if you scout nex with 2nd scv scout). Normal rax/gas timing, 2nd gas is at 75% fact (send scv at 40/60 seconds build time so that it gets to geyser at 45/60). I reactor the rax and make a hellion before techlab to scout further. In my reps I think I'm getting my 2nd gas faster than I just described, but what I just described is much more efficient and something I refined very recently. The raven timing with this build is not sufficient for most dt builds, so if you suspect or at least can't rule out dt as a possibility you should get an ebay. If you have to turret your main ramp, so be it.
I also like hellion/marauder openings a lot. These can apply pressure vs 1gate nex and some tech openings (not so good vs robo before nex). Sometimes I use it if I suspect a blink opening because it hits before blink is done, thus greatly delaying the blink attack. I've used it successfully (albeit unknowingly) vs a void all-in in the past as well.
So far I'm not a fan of reactor hellion expand, but that potentially could be adapted well vs aggression as well.
If you scout what looks like a 4gate (all chrono on warpgate, and other subtler signs) you should get a tank asap instead of a thor. Otherwise the thor holds aggression very well, and is useful rest of game. I held a 3gate robo immortal all-in in a cw the other day so easily that I thought it was 3gate nexus robo aggression.
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EPT
