EPT[L][D] Terran Mech: Resources - Page 6
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
EDIT: Btw Yoshi, i checked gfever's fast siege tank build (1rax fe into fast siege tank) that you use, and i compared it with mine. gfever's finishes his siege tank at 8:15, and i have mine done at 8:00, and i have banshee out by that time already. If his quick tank finishes at 8:15, and mine at 8:00, I think i am ok? Because when I go banshee I like to follow up with fast tank too. And night, I still dont quite get upgrades. Most pros meching players I see such as MVP, get upgrades ( +1 weapon) really late, perhaps around the 15 minute mark or more. Is this normal when meching? So going double armory is not possible, and that it is better to spend gas on tanks/vikings first, and maybe when you get 3rd base, start double armory? tl dr, must i wait until 3rd base to get double armory? Or i can have 1 armory in 2 base? | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I get my armory after 3rd cc while I'm pumping 2tank 1viking, before I add 4/5 facts. I don't get a 2nd armory until later in the game, when I need to start air ups. I never try a fast 2nd armory, or a fast first armory. The gas is too precious at that stage to spend on anything that won't obviously help you survive. Goal of mech at all points in game is to survive. You might be able to get away with it in mech vs mech, but not mech vs bio. Bio has more money than you in midgame and a much greater production capacity. You have to weather their aggression until you've evened up both. | ||
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Netless
Canada6 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Still waiting for Yoshi to reply to my latest post  | ||
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Taefox
1533 Posts
currently i'm practicing mech TvP ( Thanks to Lyyna, Nightmarjoo and this thread ), first game practice quiet good result ( High Master Protoss and I leaded the game so far ) but since it was a practice game where people intend to macro play, I want to ask you which is the best open in TvP for mech ( :/ Cuz If i'm going to play on ladder, surely will meet more allins, cheese toss - 1 Rax gasless FE into fast banshee - 2 rax gasless FE into (?) - 1/1/1 Open into fast banshee / siegetank (?) - 1 rax 1gas into Rax Reactor then FE - 1/1/1 Fast thor Open ( Lyyna guide ) Thankyou very much edit: Thanks Yoshi, I mean a combination of both safe and versatile (: | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
On August 04 2012 01:00 dynwar7 wrote: well that is weird :S I see many pros like to go 1 rax fe into banshee :s EDIT: Btw Yoshi, i checked gfever's fast siege tank build (1rax fe into fast siege tank) that you use, and i compared it with mine. gfever's finishes his siege tank at 8:15, and i have mine done at 8:00, and i have banshee out by that time already. If his quick tank finishes at 8:15, and mine at 8:00, I think i am ok? Because when I go banshee I like to follow up with fast tank too. And night, I still dont quite get upgrades. Most pros meching players I see such as MVP, get upgrades ( +1 weapon) really late, perhaps around the 15 minute mark or more. Is this normal when meching? So going double armory is not possible, and that it is better to spend gas on tanks/vikings first, and maybe when you get 3rd base, start double armory? tl dr, must i wait until 3rd base to get double armory? Or i can have 1 armory in 2 base? Is your build a 1 base? Then yes, since with gfever's build you can barely defend almost anything, 8:00 tank will be pretty safe as long as you're getting siege mode too. If he just does a 1 base marine tank viking push I don't think you can defend it without siege. You can delay it with bunkers but would still need siege soon. About the armory upgrades, since I see so many differences, I think it is a combination of preference and progamers simply not knowing the best times to start upgrades and how many armories. I'm not sure if you're talking specifically about TvT so I'll just talk generally. Many I see just go 1 armory on 2 base and just get attack upgrade. Sometimes in TvZ you may see defense upgrade instead. Sometimes they get double. I don't think I often see an armory in TvZ just for thors but without upgrades. In TvT, like night said I wouldn't go for double armory vs bio or marine tank. But often I see double armory (or a fast 2nd armory) start upgrading by the time they get their thirds in mech vs mech, while getting a raven after 1-2 vikings. In TvP, mech upgrades don't help that much since you can't go too tank heavy and tanks are the most benefited by [attack] upgrades. So if they go hellion tank heavy, I often see just 1 armory on 2 base. If you think about it, an armory + attack upgrade is 250/200. That's about 1.5 tanks. It makes the tanks do 10% more damage, so for the upgrade to be worth it, you need to have 14 tanks. Otherwise, it will not pay off until then. It's partly preference because you do get to lategame power faster and you could stick with 1 armory instead of 2. If you go for early upgrades, be sure to keep in mind that you will have a weaker army, and therefore defensive play will be more beneficial. The difference between 10 and 11 or 12 tanks is pretty huge. In a fight, think of it not as 1 or 2 more tanks but think of what's left over after a fight with 10 tanks, and have those 1-2 extra tanks shoot 5-10 times. That's enough to kill a lot of units, especially since you don't want to let protoss regenerate their shields. Upgrading only armor TvP I don't see much anymore, but can still work occasionally (as seen in many high level replays). For that you would have to get a thor/hellion or thor/banshee kind of a composition, relying on thors instead of tanks. These kinds of builds usually revolve around a timing push on 2 or 3 base though, quickly maxing on 200/200. Keep in mind also that in TvT, another benefit to getting double armory instead of slowly upgrading attack then defense is so that you can get your ship weapons faster. So anyways, yes you can start with 1 armory on 2 base, then add a 2nd one later. There are some greedy builds though where you can (if you want to try to get away with it, or are responding to your opponent's greed) fit double armory on 2 base before you have much army (Jinro's done this a lot in his TvP mech games about 2 months ago on stream). On August 04 2012 11:43 foxj wrote: Hey guys currently i'm practicing mech TvP ( Thanks to Lyyna, Nightmarjoo and this thread ), first game practice quiet good result ( High Master Protoss and I leaded the game so far ) but since it was a practice game where people intend to macro play, I want to ask you which is the best open in TvP for mech :/ Cuz If i'm going to play on ladder, surely will meet more allins, cheese toss - 1 Rax gasless FE into fast banshee - 2 rax gasless FE into (?) - 1/1/1 Open into fast banshee / siegetank (?) - 1 rax 1gas into Rax Reactor then FE - 1/1/1 Fast thor Open ( Lyyna guide ) Thankyou very much What do you mean by best? Safest? Most versatile? A combination of both? There are always risks when choosing strategies, and even pros don't go 1 rax expand bio in TvP all the time. So I assume you mean the build that is "doable" against the most number of strategies (can adapt and respond with proper scouting, etc.) I prefer expansion builds, so I would go with 1 rax 1 gas reactor rax. Depending on maps or your opponent I would also do 1 rax gasless FE. Going into tanks before banshees for that, though, is a bit more safer (or even thors). Banshee openings and hellion/marine drop/pressure openings are pretty good as well as long as it's not a bad map for it -- it's not hard to get some probe kills or intel to make your delayed expansion that bad. I would say the safest would be a 111 build if you are ok with 1 basing. Even with reactor rax expand, it is often hard to fight off all-ins if your opponents are good at micro (those korean protoss all-iners are insane lol). Not included in that list though, is gorapadong's build. This is my favorite. It's been used in tournaments like GSL and against pros on KR ladder before. It opens reactor rax into siege tanks, then you get 2-3 more reactor factories. BFH asap. There's also a build I believe MKP first showed, it's on audio builds on youtube. I like using this build on maps where it's easy to defend blink harass into your main (Daybreak, Ohana, Metropolis, etc.) You gasless expand into 3 reactor factories, then get another OC (can land at third depending on map), then all your reactors finish up in time for you to support pumping 6 hellions continuously. You can get 2 tech lab factories after or you can go double armory first if you don't think he's going to push with fast blink or colossi. This build works well on maps with open naturals, especially metropolis. Your hellions force him to stay home and if he decides to push, you should have enough time to set up final preparations. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Yes I 1 rax fe like I love and still get banshee and quicker tank then gfever and have good number of marines too. Well I guess I just need to play and get some experience on when to get upgrades etc. Lastly....I dont....really need to get vikings THAT early right? Maybe delay viking for a bit, it is safe right? Because I like to make 2 banshees first, THEN Raven, THEN reactor vikings. What are your thoughts on this | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
On August 04 2012 12:09 dynwar7 wrote: Thank you Yoshi for that. Yes I 1 rax fe like I love and still get banshee and quicker tank then gfever and have good number of marines too. Well I guess I just need to play and get some experience on when to get upgrades etc. Lastly....I dont....really need to get vikings THAT early right? Maybe delay viking for a bit, it is safe right? Because I like to make 2 banshees first, THEN Raven, THEN reactor vikings. What are your thoughts on this Do you make the tech lab on the barracks for the factory? You do gasless expand right? If you see him doing a 111 push, you will need vikings or else, without air dominance, you will only have 2 OC's worth of scans to defend, which is not enough. If he expands without vikings you can try to push him and continue to make banshees, then making vikings to match his count. If he is doing a marine tank banshee push though, yes you can still make banshees, though I think vikings would be better since you can snipe the banshees and stay out of range of the marines. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Hmm, so talking in general, going to macro game, do you advice to get reactor starport later or it is compulsory to have it early? Because like I said, 2 banshee, 1 raven, then starport reactor sounds good? Maybe I will start starport reactor aruond the time I take my 3rd? Which should not be late because I have so many minerals.....which mech player doesnt lol. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On August 04 2012 13:07 Nightmarjoo wrote: 1rax cc gasgas isn't safe tvp. Any gas build is good. No Im only meching in TvT  | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On August 06 2012 00:17 dynwar7 wrote: I am still unsure whether to make vikings early (starport reactor) or double armory. I think producing vikings so early is kinda pointless? Maybe when I am on 3rd base, then I start viking, sounds good? What is the point of having really early vikings anyway? I may have 1 or 2 sure, but I wont start reactor vikings until 3rd base, does it sound ok? If you do not have sky superiority as mech, especially against another mech player, then that is bad. Generally it's good to start reactor Viking production off 2 base then get your armories when you take a 3rd. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
The problem with mech is TvP. Protoss can often just a-move over a sieged up mech army. I do not care about balance since it does not affect my level of play, but it feels like a design error that Protoss can just engage head on against a sieged up army. Protoss should have to abuse the immobility of mech like bio Terrans do, but it should not be possible to just a-move into a sieged up mech army. Hopefully Hots will correct this. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
In TvZ when I push anywhere with my siege/thor/hellion army I always float some barracks with me to create either choke points or wall off behind me to stop them coming directly behind me with lings and I'm not ready, I really wonder if that sort of thing would work well in TvP too since Bio is a bit too micro intensive at my level. | ||
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