[L][D] Terran Mech: Resources - Page 19
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10158 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On August 25 2012 07:43 Nightmarjoo wrote: Should I do similar writeups for tvt and tvz? Not sure if the lack of feedback following it implies a lack of interest or just the post's length. Personally for me it was the post length. I didn't get around to it until now. I think you got a bit too specific. Why don't you try writing a more generalized guide? Its tough to learn much from a single replay, its much better to blow thru 3-4 games detailing the different paths that the opening takes. I'd be interested to hear more about your variation of the Thor expand. I do think Thor is good at holding one base pushes. And I think its pretty easy to figure out how to win on 5+ bases (just don't attack and defend super cost effectively with minimal rally time). It is the middle 2-4 base aggression that is the difficult part of Ghostmech for me. | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
If I wrote it any shorter it would be missing content though. As long as at least a single person finds this stuff interesting I'll keep writing them. Sounds like a tvz post is in order. The tvps are more fun though~ | ||
kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On August 25 2012 18:04 avilo wrote: I've been playing a lot of ghostmech tvp recently, i'll get some replays together and upload em. Thanks Avilo.<3 | ||
MistSC2
Sweden583 Posts
On August 25 2012 18:04 avilo wrote: I've been playing a lot of ghostmech tvp recently, i'll get some replays together and upload em. Epiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiic | ||
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10158 Posts
On August 25 2012 18:04 avilo wrote: I've been playing a lot of ghostmech tvp recently, i'll get some replays together and upload em. Yay!!! woot I remember when you released that mech replay pack a looong time ago, that was awesome thanks again :D | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12011 Posts
When you're going into either battlecruisers or vikings after mech in TvT is it better to start with the armor upgrades first like BW or go for the attack first? I guess at that stage of the game it shouldn't really matter as you can get both, but is there one that's more beneficial? | ||
RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On August 25 2012 13:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: I see. I figured being specific would be the most helpful. Being general would just be doing a low-level cast-job of the game, which you can see for yourself just by watching it. I will be writing up guides for both the style and my specific build in the future, but for now I'll stick with simple game recaps and analyses. When I wrote that recap I kept in mind my experiences from other games to point out how it was similar or different from the model. That wouldn't really change just by looking at a few different games. If I wrote it any shorter it would be missing content though. As long as at least a single person finds this stuff interesting I'll keep writing them. Sounds like a tvz post is in order. The tvps are more fun though~ Well, a good guide is more than low level play-by-play cast. It outlines the thought process and decision points across a wide variety of contingencies. But your previous post was just a flat-out memory dump of a single game. Which is interesting, but is difficult to learn from, because so many of the scenarios that happened in that game were unique to that game. What if the Protoss 4-gated instead? How about 2 base Zealot/Prism/Carrier (which is actually pretty good against mech)? 6 gate Immortal? Stargate openings? 3 Gate Blink? Double Forge? 3 Colossi push? Etc. That is more general knowledge that you need in order to really develop a new build. | ||
RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On August 25 2012 22:33 Qikz wrote: I have a relatively random question regarding TvT. I should know this, but it's something I've never looked into. When you're going into either battlecruisers or vikings after mech in TvT is it better to start with the armor upgrades first like BW or go for the attack first? I guess at that stage of the game it shouldn't really matter as you can get both, but is there one that's more beneficial? In TvT go ship armor first. Unless it is pure Viking vs Viking, then go Attack first. The only things that can kill Vikings and BCs are: Marines Turrets Thors BCs Ravens Vikings Marines, Turrets, Thors, and BCs are all rapid-fire units, so its better to upgrade +1 armor and decrease 20 shots by 1 damage each, then it is to upgrade +1 attack and increase 10 shots by 1 damage. If you take a pack of 8 stimmed Marines and pit them against the BC, its obvious that the BC's armor upgrades are going to trigger more often than its attack upgrades. Ravens are another consideration. PDD negates the effectiveness of attack upgrades, but armor ups will still function. The exception is that if you are behind in a pure Viking vs Viking war, it can make sense to go attack first instead because Vikings are more of slow-fire unit. And +2 Ship Attack is a critical upgrade vs +0 armor Vikings. Its only when the opponent mixes in other units that can kill Vikings that armor becomes attractive for Vikings. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12011 Posts
EDIT: Eugh, threw away a completely won game. I had a 3-3 mech army against his 0-0 protoss army and I accidentally unsieged all my tanks and he killed them. God damn that felt bad. EDIT Again: Why are mains in this game such annoying shapes? I just nearly lost a game by accidentally walling all my factories in with a single turret. I had my 6 BCs raining down on their army and was reinforcing with tanks to deal with the stalkers, but for some idiotic reason none of my tanks were getting to the front lines. Then I checked... god damnit! :p Still went on to win, but I nearly threw that game too. Need to badly learn my base layout on Ohana, that's the worst for it in the top position. | ||
saaaa
Germany419 Posts
I struggle a little bit to get the "best" opening for me. The overall goal should be to get the BC/Raven composition. @ Night you say in one thread that it is the easiest match up to come to this composition and i watched some games of you and recognize you open a lot with thor expand but i think you don't have a good economy to support your follow up. thx | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
You get to bcs by staying alive and mining. If your opponent doesn't have a very strong army (they have a heavily gateway-diluted army instead, but aren't using blink to attack multiple locations), you can start bc production on 8tank 6thor. If they have a very heavy robo army consider delaying bc for more tanks and making banshees instead of bcs for a bit. If they're making carriers make bcs asap and then make more thors (and turrets). If they're using heavy blink harass while also pressuring with a separate colos-based army make tank/banshee/pf before bc. Yes qikz the mains of every single map are all horrible. | ||
- special tactics -
Ukraine39 Posts
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On August 26 2012 23:42 Nightmarjoo wrote: What? What's wrong with my economy? You get to bcs by staying alive and mining. If your opponent doesn't have a very strong army (they have a heavily gateway-diluted army instead, but aren't using blink to attack multiple locations), you can start bc production on 8tank 6thor. If they have a very heavy robo army consider delaying bc for more tanks and making banshees instead of bcs for a bit. If they're making carriers make bcs asap and then make more thors (and turrets). If they're using heavy blink harass while also pressuring with a separate colos-based army make tank/banshee/pf before bc. Yes qikz the mains of every single map are all horrible. i just found that you don't have a good economy with a thor expand and always get troubles with the follow up I will explain my tries so far. I have to say that i don't like Tanks in TvP because the just overrun you with everything and remax instantly. I also have to say i'am just diamond. --Openings--- 1 Rax No Gas FE into 3 Fac Reactor into Thor+Hellion+Banshee 3 Fac Reactor Opening gets huge Trouble against Blink Stalker on 1 Base because they don't die and also get easily shutdown by any immortal aggression because stalker, immortal > hellions Thor Expand or 1 Rax No Gas FE into "Fast Thor" A thor Expand is really nice and save but you don't have the economy to support your follow up in my opinion and if you go 1 rax expand before the expand the thor is way too late to help against everything. I found the safest No Gas FE is followed by a fac with your first 100 Gas and asap Siege+Tank. You can also through down a eaby if you scout early 2 Gas. ---- Follow ups---- I also tried 1 Rax Fe into 5 Fac Tanks with Armor Upgrades but they just get crushed by max attacks with 3/3 at around 17 Min then instant remax and gg. Thor+Hellion+Banshee out of a 1 Rax Expand into 3 Fac+2 Starports get destroyed by Templars. What do you think about this composition? I think i just need some ghosts but you can not afford this on 3 bases. | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
You can't 1rax cc into mech unless you absolutely know your opponent is going 1gate nex or nex first because there are all-ins you can't scout in time to adapt to stop. You can't 1rax cc into 3 or 4rax then into mech (to be safe vs those all-ins) because you don't have enough gas/time to get an adequate force to stop a 12 minute immortal all-in. If you mass marines/bunkers to hold it you've effectively nullified whatever advantage you garnered from fast expanding instead of doing a tech build. Thus you need to open with gas. Reactor expand is ok, but has no great means to scout, and is still sensitive to aggression. Cloaked banshee expand is good because you can get a hellion out to scout well, and the banshee allows you to clean up their aggression attempts and/or harass them, forcing them to make stalkers and extra obs, and/or cannons. The problem is that your cc is very late with this build, and it's still not super great vs aggression. Double expanding is not always possible, and just making a fast 3rd oc in-base heavily delays your gas. Thor expand gets the fact up early, and thus gets a fast hellion out to scout everything. If Protoss is being aggressive the thor holds everything except a fast 4gate, which is easy to scout, and you just get a tank before hellion vs saved chronos instead. If protoss expands you make cc before thor, and your thor lets you defend any fast aggression after nexus. This build is the best general build for tvp mech imo. It's the safest build, and allows a faster cc than most tech openings. It lacks aggression-potential, but that's irrelevant since your goal with tvp mech is to stay alive. Why would you mass tanks and get armour upgrades? If you open 1rax cc and don't die you can hold anything later in game. Your only problem is if you try tank/hellion and he goes carrier. But you need attack upgrades, not armour. Armour doesn't do shit, especially for tanks. Thor/tank/banshee/ghost is viable, but as you can see from my recent reps I've been shying away from port units until later in game. Templar shouldn't be a threat if you have tank/banshee/ghost, as all 3 units can easily snipe ht. Even if you don't make tanks you should be fine. If you're losing to big attacks by omitting tanks and ghost (why you would do that is beyond me) then you're not using your hellion/banshee well. I believe that composition is viable, but I don't recommend it. You can support the constant production of 2tank (or 2thor), 1banshee, 1ghost on 3base. If you want 2port production you can afford this by cutting 1 thor or 1 tank from your production cycle. On 3fact that means you could have 1 techlab 2 reactors, and be very aggressive with your hellion/banshee while slowly building up your thor or tank and ghost count. Obviously though I recommend my composition, which is tank/thor/ghost with light hellion into air. I really haven't experimented much with making only thors (no tanks). I suspect it's viable though. I think that if you want to try it you should do the heavy banshee/hellion composition I just mentioned to keep protoss busy. If they sit and mass archon/immortal you could be in trouble without tanks. Strike cannons can only do so much. Obviously you need ghosts though, you can't skip them. Your inability to hold attacks when relying on tanks suggests greater problems with your play than just composition though. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12011 Posts
http://drop.sc/243524 I keep up with him in upgrades (although my +3 attack was late), I could probably do with more production facilities to get more hellions to dump my minerals but it was quite early on and I'd just taken my third (I think I may have taken that late too) so I had quite low gas. Is there any tips you could give me to improve my play? I seem to be doing much better against zerg and Terran but struggling against protoss. | ||
saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On August 27 2012 01:01 Nightmarjoo wrote: I already explained the process that lead to choosing this as my standard build. I don't find that my economy is weak, and I'm not sure why you perceive it as such. I'm not sure what you want me to be able to do that I'm not with my opening, as when I play I can do everything I need. You can't 1rax cc into mech unless you absolutely know your opponent is going 1gate nex or nex first because there are all-ins you can't scout in time to adapt to stop. You can't 1rax cc into 3 or 4rax then into mech (to be safe vs those all-ins) because you don't have enough gas/time to get an adequate force to stop a 12 minute immortal all-in. If you mass marines/bunkers to hold it you've effectively nullified whatever advantage you garnered from fast expanding instead of doing a tech build. Thus you need to open with gas. Reactor expand is ok, but has no great means to scout, and is still sensitive to aggression. Cloaked banshee expand is good because you can get a hellion out to scout well, and the banshee allows you to clean up their aggression attempts and/or harass them, forcing them to make stalkers and extra obs, and/or cannons. The problem is that your cc is very late with this build, and it's still not super great vs aggression. Double expanding is not always possible, and just making a fast 3rd oc in-base heavily delays your gas. Thor expand gets the fact up early, and thus gets a fast hellion out to scout everything. If Protoss is being aggressive the thor holds everything except a fast 4gate, which is easy to scout, and you just get a tank before hellion vs saved chronos instead. If protoss expands you make cc before thor, and your thor lets you defend any fast aggression after nexus. This build is the best general build for tvp mech imo. It's the safest build, and allows a faster cc than most tech openings. It lacks aggression-potential, but that's irrelevant since your goal with tvp mech is to stay alive. Why would you mass tanks and get armour upgrades? If you open 1rax cc and don't die you can hold anything later in game. Your only problem is if you try tank/hellion and he goes carrier. But you need attack upgrades, not armour. Armour doesn't do shit, especially for tanks. Thor/tank/banshee/ghost is viable, but as you can see from my recent reps I've been shying away from port units until later in game. Templar shouldn't be a threat if you have tank/banshee/ghost, as all 3 units can easily snipe ht. Even if you don't make tanks you should be fine. If you're losing to big attacks by omitting tanks and ghost (why you would do that is beyond me) then you're not using your hellion/banshee well. I believe that composition is viable, but I don't recommend it. You can support the constant production of 2tank (or 2thor), 1banshee, 1ghost on 3base. If you want 2port production you can afford this by cutting 1 thor or 1 tank from your production cycle. On 3fact that means you could have 1 techlab 2 reactors, and be very aggressive with your hellion/banshee while slowly building up your thor or tank and ghost count. Obviously though I recommend my composition, which is tank/thor/ghost with light hellion into air. I really haven't experimented much with making only thors (no tanks). I suspect it's viable though. I think that if you want to try it you should do the heavy banshee/hellion composition I just mentioned to keep protoss busy. If they sit and mass archon/immortal you could be in trouble without tanks. Strike cannons can only do so much. Obviously you need ghosts though, you can't skip them. Your inability to hold attacks when relying on tanks suggests greater problems with your play than just composition though. with a thor expand you only can afford 3 Fac compared to maybe TvZ where you can support 5 Fac+Starport mineralwise. Do you 1 Rax Expand followed by a fast siege tank? Until now i don't face any attack which i can not hold easily. No the way i loose with 5 Fac tanks was against max 200 Attack i also at 200 Supply and hold it off. But then he warps in Mass Zealot+Archon and crush me. Maybe 4Fac Tanks and 2 Rax Ghosts after the Expand? What do you think about "pure" Tank+Ghost and attack upgrades for mech? I tried a few games today and it seems solid to me. Did someone ever try this? I can upload some replays if you want them. | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
If you tell me what you're trying to do I can be more helpful. Essentially almost everything I can suggest for you to improve on are just the ways that what you did was different from my build and play. If you aren't trying to do my build, explain what you're doing and why you're doing it and I can give feedback on that. If you are trying to do my build and can't see how your play differs from mine from the reps I've uploaded, I can give you a laundry list. | ||
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