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On August 22 2012 10:14 Qikz wrote:
Random question, on maps like Entombed, how the hell are you supposed to push at a protoss? On Shakuras it's not too bad as they can't warp in around every single side of you and crush your army, but on Entombed I find it hard to do anything bar turtle up on my bases until I either die or he runs out of juice.
I find that map pretty hard to mech on, I've banned it lol ;O when i used to not have that map unbanned (cus bans were used for worse maps at the time :D) my games usually ended up being turtlefests on 4 ish base but it got hard to stretch to the other side to split the map, there's so many different places to defend. But if anyone has success on this map please share your strategies or advice :D
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On August 22 2012 10:14 Qikz wrote:
Random question, on maps like Entombed, how the hell are you supposed to push at a protoss? On Shakuras it's not too bad as they can't warp in around every single side of you and crush your army, but on Entombed I find it hard to do anything bar turtle up on my bases until I either die or he runs out of juice.
i like to throw out random p.f on my side of the map(just make sure u got the spare minerals to do it.. if they try to attack you and you got one of those suckers up you can see it coming and counter properly. Here's the rep of me doing it on that map.http://drop.sc/242066.
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i am just wondering if my build vs zerg is viable.
The basics of it are:
gas first > fast BFH > expand at 5:20 > a few banshees into a banshee thor hellion style (more tanks if he goes roaches)
I have won a few games, but i guess i just played better than other guy.. in an even match i'm not sure this build is too good vs zerg (it works vs terran).
Is the expand too late? i feel like i have to do a lot of damage or i just get rolled.
Also I've been struggling with mutas alot. Should i get an ebay and put turrets up by ten minutes, or just go for an armory and build thors? i can't afford both.
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I think it's a little risky, as you can't guarantee to do any damage. Maybe you could try getting a port up asap after cc for a hellion drop before banshee. When I get rockdarim tvz I usually open gas first reactor hellion banshee and even a huge choke and a relatively high hellion count I can't always do damage before the banshees are out.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
Do the hellions really have to do damage though? I thought the main benefit of the hellions were map control early on forcing them into either roaches or mutas so they can move out properly. Also, is Tal'darim actually any good for mech? I've had it vetod for ages as I always presumed it'd be awful due to the openness of it, but if you're playing it then it surely can't be too bad.
I vetoed antiga purely because of TvP too as it's seemingly impossible to take a fourth base,
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Not that early on, imo. And yes antiga is horrible.
So yes they should do damage.
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Hey mechers, would anyone be able to share the replays of their tvt mech vs bio where you lose? I just intend on studying those replays.
Night, those rep packs, have you got any where you lose against bio?
Thank you
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
On August 23 2012 17:40 dynwar7 wrote:
Hey mechers, would anyone be able to share the replays of their tvt mech vs bio where you lose? I just intend on studying those replays.
Night, those rep packs, have you got any where you lose against bio?
Thank you
I'd be able to get you loads but I think I deleted most of them as I usually lost by losing my main to a mass runby :/
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On August 23 2012 21:09 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 17:40 dynwar7 wrote:
Hey mechers, would anyone be able to share the replays of their tvt mech vs bio where you lose? I just intend on studying those replays.
Night, those rep packs, have you got any where you lose against bio?
Thank you I'd be able to get you loads but I think I deleted most of them as I usually lost by losing my main to a mass runby :/
Well, if you think the bio player is decent and outplayed the mech (you) then I would love to see them, so I can learna thing or two of mech losing to bio
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
If I get anymore (I'm only in diamond level) I'll upload them for you if you want. ^^
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When you look at a replay all you see is shit happening. Often it's not clear how either player intended or expected the game to turn out. You miss the thought process behind the actions. You miss what mistakes were made that required adaptations, or what the opponent did that was unexpected that forced adaptations, etc. Sometimes it isn't even clear what was deliberate, what was a pure accident, what was a complete mess of mistakes, etc.
So here is a full recap of a game from my most recent reppack. It's vs xLsThunder, 1700 point masters protoss. I've played vs him in the past before and he'd always cheesed, so I entered the game with that in mind. I don't think I'd meched vs him before however.
http://drop.sc/239792
Opening is normal 12rax 13gas 17 oc (16 scv and 1 marine). Second depot is asap without cutting anything. He didn't save chrono at all, and his 2nd gas was fairly normally timed. I wasn't looking too closely at his build because rather than assuming FE and looking for signs of cheese I was expecting cheese and looking for signs of FE. Had I wanted to look closer I'd have stuck around until he started mining his 2nd gas to see how many probes he used in each, and I might've also looked for 3rd pylon (which is conspicuously missing from his main). The second gas and no zlot already pointed towards cheese though, confirming my suspicions. The second gas timing tells me it can't be super fast dt (I've encountered dt at my base at 5:48 before).
I scout with my marines behind my nat, 3rd, and 4th, all good proxy locations. I don't bother searching my main because his probe never vanished inside it. Note that I actually sent a marine to my 5th where he ended up proxying as well, but it got distracted chasing his probe and I sent it to the 4th and then home instead. It's ok though, because my hellion finds it anyway. Note my hellion rechecking some spots my marines checked earlier. Some aggression may have a relatively late proxy pylon and nothing else.
Since he didn't save chrono (can't fast 4gate), since he's likely not expoing (prompting cc), and since his 2nd gas wasn't super fast (requiring fast ebay) I do my normal thor expand build with thor before cc. Missing depot at 35 forces me to cut scv production to get thor out asap (mistake) while still making marines (which are necessary for shooting ground units since thor will be shooting voidray). So I'm 2-3 workers behind where I ought to be at this point.
Notice I wasn't even sure if he was going to be aggressive since he was taking so long. I figured he may have decided to just expo with me having scouted his build. Notice that in spite of this I stayed on top of my ramp, scouted with only a single marine, and didn't unload the ramp bunker while making the nat bunker. I also made a cc before second thor, but I might have done this even if he was being aggressive. If you have to delay your cc as much as he's delaying his nexus you have no semblance of an advantage, so if you can barely stay alive with a cc you should do that rather than get a very late cc and crush his aggression. Especially since he still has more workers than me (due to my mistake earlier and to him over-making probes) having a cc same time as his nexus would set me behind. Since there's no way to gain map control at this point I might as well have a faster cc.
Notice also how easily I'm holding his aggression despite pointlessly losing my only bunker (due to an inefficient scv pull/repair). Thors are pretty good, which is why thor expand (or armory cc thor) is my standard. I pulled scvs off gas during the aggression since I had enough gas to make thors. If I'd pulled sooner I could've kept 2 on each gas (for about 80% gas income) instead of going to 1 on each. After the aggression ends he has a worker lead due to poor macro on my part. Even so, constant scv production with 2 ccs exceeds constantly chrono'd probe production (possible if he saved chrono during the attack).
First thing I do when I move to my nat is make a bunker, and next thing is make a turret. Cheesy protoss love relying on dts, and the turret protects you from obs scouting your nat as well. The threat of dt is always a possibility throughout the game so that turret is never a loss. Don't think that just because he just used a gas-heavy aggressive build that he won't go dt immediately.
Since he wasn't being aggressive with robo tech I'm getting siege and tanks after 3rd thor instead of a 4th thor and strike cannons.
It's usually safe to get a quick 3rd cc after defending aggression, but I suspect I didn't get it due to having a relatively low scv count. Notice I take my 3rd right after he shows me dts. That may sound counter-intuitive, but if I know he just spent a lot of money on additional tech he can't possibly also be aggressive with an army. Furthermore I welcome him to make more dts, as they're a huge waste of money for him at this point. Worst case scenario I can cancel my 3rd and remake it in my main. That's 100 minerals lost for me and 125 minerals and 100 gas lost for him. Doesn't take a math PHD to figure out who would come out ahead there.
I typically favour slightly delayed ghost production in favour of waiting on moebius reactor first, but felt I should have the ghosts out asap since he was templar tech.
I start my 4th cc the moment my 3rd is up and running. I already have the tech, production buildings, and scv count (or good enough) necessary for 3base, so there's no point in delaying my 4th. What else would I make? Production buildings? I can't support increased production until I have my 4th base gas. I could make factories for hellions, but there's no push timing to make extra hellions for, and I couldn't possibly guarantee extra hellions to do damage exceeding their own value. It is however a mistake to not have been using my existing hellions to scout his expos and unit composition.
Late moebius reactor and cloak is a mistake though. +3 mech attack could've been faster as well.
I take my 5th right after my 4th. The limitations on my production are time and gas, not minerals. If I can't hold my 5th then so be it, I'll take it later. His army composition mostly consists of immortals, which aren't particularly scary by themselves. Heavy archon/immortal can be, but that's nothing a little turtling and some extra tank/banshee/ghost can't hold. Colossi might be scary enough to delay my 5th, but not scary enough to pose any real threat to me. He can't attack into a good sieged position with them, and eventually I'll have the banshee/bc number required to negate his colos altogether.
By 25:00 he has a high archon/immortal count, but that's too late for any push. I have a high enough ghost and tank count to thwart that.
His first major push is a huge bunk because I emp'd the mothership. Sniping my pf was useless since I had another cc to replace it immediately. What this did though was to unmax me, so my money is replacing units to remax rather than remaxing stronger. Had he not attacked I soon would have been able to suicide SCVs, nearing an acceptable oc count.
At 29:30 I looked to want to push, but wisely backed off. My upgrades weren't complete, I wasn't maxed, and I didn't have excess production capacity. Only if those prerequisites are met in addition to the opponent being vulnerable should you actually attack protoss with mech. What harm can waiting cause? His upgrades are already done, so his army isn't getting any stronger. He just blew his entire army while simultaneously having two of his expansions nuked. He's in no shape to make a good army for a long time. He has to invest his money into garbage units just to survive whether I actually attack or not. Even if he comes up with the money and time to make good units later his max will still be heavily diluted with useless supply.
Instead I use my map control to expand, to consolidate my advantage.
When he attacks me next it's again to his utter disadvantage. I lose nothing of importance (I was not in dire need of that expansion, so losing it in exchange for his army is a great trade), and again use the distraction of the fight to nuke another expansion. So he loses the fight and more probes. The reason why despite my prior advantage I wasn't able to engage his army here and just kill him is that my battlecruiser count was still low. The reason why it was low is that I had been spending money on replacing units lost earlier, which also delayed my extra oc production which altogether left me with less money to spend on bcs. Bcs are not a requirement, they're a luxury. You can win endgame tvp with mech without bcs. The only time you truly need bcs are when he has a high carrier count (and even then turret/thor/ghost/raven can hold its own vs that while you make bcs).
Notice me making sure to emp his mothership since the opportunity presented itself. Always keep its energy down if you can. You can't always be aware of its position.
His zlot harass is annoying (and easily prevented by just raising the depot wall on my nat choke), but destroys only addons and weak units. His next attack is again to his own great disadvantage. He fails to destroy the new expansion attempt. He kills the tanks, which is only regrettable due to the inefficiency of their trade (with more units present the tanks would've given him more hell before being destroyed), but losing them in and of itself is no blow by this point in the game. Tanks by this point are only useful in thwarting stalker harass, which is at worst annoying, not a real threat. He loses his archons and mothership, his good units. The colos are completely useless at this point. The aftermath is that I have a bc count he cannot possibly contest for the rest of the game. Again there's no point in attacking now because I can be stronger, and he can't.
Mining my earlier bases instead of the newer ones with my remaining scvs is a mistake. It's better to use them on newer bases, using the old ones as emergency backup instead.
My armour upgrades are a little slow this game, but that's not a big deal since I never really had a huge money bank. My money was always going into worthwhile good things instead. Omitting turret/pf range is a mistake though.
This game may have appeared a little close since I never obtained a perfect max and a huge money bank, but neither of those are requirements for winning tvp with mech. My opponent threw large armies at me to his own detriment, but it still slowed me down.
Now many people try to make this mech style look illegitimate or unviable. They point to the mistakes made by protoss as if that's evidence supporting their claim. This protoss certainly made mistakes, but how would the game have differed if he hadn't? He made a very good army for dealing with conventional ground mech and threw it at me before I could perfect my max. In that sense it was a decent timing for his first attack. Obviously he needed carriers to fight my bcs, but the only way he can make them is by unmaxing in some way. My unit composition, tactics, and level of defense prevent him from possibly unmaxing efficiently.
That means no matter what he's going to have to suicide some of his units to make carriers. Trying to make carriers on a weak army is going to make him vulnerable to harass and give me map control with which I'll expo on. He'll have carriers, but without enough money to fight me. As I said earlier turret/thor/raven/ghost can hold its own vs carriers, and tank/pf protects that from any ground support. With a lot of money I can make a lot of bcs. As long as I'm on top of emping his mothership his army should never be able to beat mine.
Suiciding units to make carriers will always give me an opportunity to push forward a bit to secure more expansions and distract his army to open up harass windows.
So in conclusion outside of the opening this game was fairly typical, if not ideal. What I suggest getting out of this game is to look at how effective not suiciding my army was. Look at how much damage his un-ideal army was able to do to mine in scenarios where he chose the engagement against me at well-defended locations. If I had tried to attack after gaining an advantage I easily could have thrown away my lead by having battles where I don't have the best possibly army in the best possible location.
Feel free to ask questions about this or any other game I've played.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
Thanks for that massive post, I've been watching your replays and as you said it's kind of hard to understand why you're doing things and when you're doing things. Just about to watch that replay with my newly gained knowledge to extract as much info as I can out of your build. :D
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Should I do similar writeups for tvt and tvz? Not sure if the lack of feedback following it implies a lack of interest or just the post's length.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
Might be the timing of it all, most europeans are in bed and I don't think there's many americans other than you that post here is there?
I'd love to read one for TvZ but for me personally I don't think I need one for TvT as it plays a lot like mech did in SC1 (well at least my games anyway, I even open BFH like you'd open vultures in BW :D)
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It's been almost 24 hours since I posted, they've had time to read it ._>
But ok, I'll try to find a good tvz to analyze.
I dunno why there aren't many americans in this thread. Seems like I get most of my stream viewers at odd times for me (which would be good for europeans). I guess most americans are zerg now eh?
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
On August 25 2012 09:39 Nightmarjoo wrote:
It's been almost 24 hours since I posted, they've had time to read it ._>
But ok, I'll try to find a good tvz to analyze.
I dunno why there aren't many americans in this thread. Seems like I get most of my stream viewers at odd times for me (which would be good for europeans). I guess most americans are zerg now eh?
Woops didn't notice the time you posted it.
I'm not sure about the Americans thing, maybe it's because either the people who Mech on the American server don't post, or maybe not many people do it for some unknown reason. I know in TvT I come across quite a lot of other meching Terrans.
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Nightmare sorry i've not been on this thread in the last day or so i've had friends round my house (non starcraft ones lolol).
That is an awesome post i'm about to download your replay and watch.
To be honest i think a TvZ one would be far more useful to me 
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EPT
