EPTBut I think in general 6-7 pool is very hard to deal with if your opponent is good.
[G] ZvP 7 pooling to success! - Page 2
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433 Posts
But I think in general 6-7 pool is very hard to deal with if your opponent is good. | ||
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Sanctimonius
United Kingdom861 Posts
On July 18 2012 21:22 Flonomenalz wrote: So 7 pool into roach ling all in? Um, okay, nice guide. Actually it is. If you watch the videos, which it seems you didn't you'll notice in some cases he ends up ahead on harvester count when he expands. So he's made a build that takes advantage of the current metagame (I must see like one in ten toss going gateway first), sets himself ahead where he can do what he wants - settle down for a macro game, all in or something in between. | ||
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
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Aro
Canada36 Posts
On July 18 2012 21:14 Aelonius wrote: Douillos, only a complete spastic would miss it and not adjust to it. It's a very unfavourable tactic as you bank on the hope that he may not see the hatchery. Proxy hatch is actually really strong in the scenario where toss sacs the pylon/forge and drops a cannon in their mineral line. You can easily drop it just out of sight of the nexus where it's very difficult for toss to scout (because he's confined to the area covered by his cannon by your lings). At that point you add a few lings/drones, send 2 drones when the hatch is ~50% (depending on the map of course) and spine up at the proxy hatch. I haven't lost with this variation the 4-5 times I've played it at the mid master (NA) level. If anyone wants to see/practice against it, I'm happy to do some games. Aro.828 on NA. | ||
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johax
Sweden165 Posts
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YPJake
United States7 Posts
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AnOtter
Australia25 Posts
On July 19 2012 02:44 CryMore wrote: If you aren't going all-in why not just 8-pool? You get 9-drones, a drone scout, and no supply block while hitting with lings when there are still no cannons or zealot. Feel free to experiment with different maps, but I know for a fact that on maps with larger rush distances (antiga cross comes to mind) he will be able to finish a wall with a cannon, and you will be way behind. 7-pool, with proper execution, should guarantee that he will be forced to retreat to his main. | ||
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AnOtter
Australia25 Posts
On July 19 2012 03:13 johax wrote: But you're not ahead if you have a 2-3 drone lead after 5 minutes vs a protoss. You put yourself in a worse position than you would have been in if you'd just grab your 3 bases, and socke could have just left a probe down at his wall to make your 6 lings useless, he reacted really bad. I'll definitely agree that Socke didn't react very well by his standards, but that's one of the purposes of this build. By forcing the game into an unusual, though not uneven, position, you encourage the protoss to make mistakes while you, as a practised 7 pooler, know exactly what to do. | ||
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johax
Sweden165 Posts
On July 19 2012 10:02 AnOtter wrote: I'll definitely agree that Socke didn't react very well by his standards, but that's one of the purposes of this build. By forcing the game into an unusual, though not uneven, position, you encourage the protoss to make mistakes while you, as a practised 7 pooler, know exactly what to do. the only difference in your game vs socke was that your economy is delayed and you're on one hatch less than you should. why do you think being behind is an advantage? | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On July 19 2012 10:22 ODKStevez wrote: 7 pool is very useful these days since every Protoss does the FFE build and the 7 pool will punish that. It doesn't "punish" it. As long as they scout it like a normal person would they just build pylon and cannon in base and they are ahead. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On July 19 2012 10:27 Moosegills wrote: It doesn't "punish" it. As long as they scout it like a normal person would they just build pylon and cannon in base and they are ahead. Sure they are ahead that very moment, but they have to rebuild the forge and take a very late expo or try to kill you via 4gate (which is easy to stop). DRG did 6 pool vs hero in recent tournament, Hero opted for sacking forge and 4gating, DRG got speedlings and kept threatening a backstab until his econ was strong, and eventually won via muta. Unless toss does a full wall off and stops the lings from getting in his base, you can do a lot of economic damage and buy yourself plenty of time to drone up. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On July 19 2012 10:36 tskarzyn wrote: Sure they are ahead that very moment, but they have to rebuild the forge and take a very late expo or try to kill you via 4gate (which is easy to stop). DRG did 6 pool vs hero in recent tournament, Hero opted for sacking forge and 4gating, DRG got speedlings and kept threatening a backstab until his econ was strong, and eventually won via muta. Unless toss does a full wall off and stops the lings from getting in his base, you can do a lot of economic damage and buy yourself plenty of time to drone up. I vote against the usage of the term "backstab". All in favour say aye! Very nice guide. Yes protoss is technically ahead after sacking his forge/pylon but he has to play blind, which is where zerg catches up by being super greedy (as he should) | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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oZe
Sweden492 Posts
Will try this on the ladder when I get a chance. Ps. People saying 6/7 pools don't work should maybe find out about this thing they call GSL ^^ | ||
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foobs
5 Posts
On July 19 2012 10:36 tskarzyn wrote: Sure they are ahead that very moment, but they have to rebuild the forge and take a very late expo or try to kill you via 4gate (which is easy to stop). DRG did 6 pool vs hero in recent tournament, Hero opted for sacking forge and 4gating, DRG got speedlings and kept threatening a backstab until his econ was strong, and eventually won via muta. Unless toss does a full wall off and stops the lings from getting in his base, you can do a lot of economic damage and buy yourself plenty of time to drone up. I saw the same game, on Taldarim Altar where it is hard for the zerg to take a 3rd. A perfect solution to counter Hero's map pick. Gave DRG absolute dominance on the map. I tried this several times today after seeing DRG do it and won each game. One with a proxy hatch in his nat, one w/ a nydus and another just from behind ahead. Quite effective at least a diamond. Very, very fun too! A nice change of pace from droning until sentry immortal rolls me since I obviously don't have the timings down yet for that push =x | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
On July 18 2012 21:14 Aelonius wrote: Douillos, only a complete spastic would miss it and not adjust to it. It's a very unfavourable tactic as you bank on the hope that he may not see the hatchery. oh really? Only a spastic would let the toss see it while the lings harass anywhere they can. | ||
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Cozopt
United States17 Posts
On July 18 2012 16:36 S2Glow wrote: lol , this is why 6/7 dont work against high level player. they know what to do. i thought u got brilliant idea  This is something you would assume is true, and yet I see pro streams where Zergs will still 6/7 pool, for example Catz does it every once in a while. I've only seen one scenario where the protoss walled off his natural and was wayyyy ahead by the 6/7 pool failing, but every other time I've seen the Zerg force the protoss to his main base. It's important to consider that with the queen you can catch up in drones as well, which is important to the idea of it actually not failing even though you may be directly behind in workers from the get-go. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On July 19 2012 01:30 Sanctimonius wrote: Actually it is. If you watch the videos, which it seems you didn't you'll notice in some cases he ends up ahead on harvester count when he expands. So he's made a build that takes advantage of the current metagame (I must see like one in ten toss going gateway first), sets himself ahead where he can do what he wants - settle down for a macro game, all in or something in between. What are you talking about? Everyone knows eco 6-7 pool takes advantage of the ZvP metagame of FFE. Most people do it with a 6 pool, I thought maybe he would have something new to add with a 7 pool, maybe an X amount of drones pulled that guarantees a win against 15 nex, or maybe a 7 pool with a hatch cancel spine in the main after you've killed off the forge, idk, something NEW that most people don't know about already. If the Protoss reacts properly, if you drone up and expand before them (which you obviously should) at most you end up with a 4-8 drone lead (I haven't really tested it, but this is based off my experiences) depending on how many lings you made. That isn't good at all. The eco 6 pool relies on the Protoss messing up with probe micro, or blindly going 15 nex. Your subsequent all in relies on lack of scouting, like any all in. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to belittle the work you put into the guide. It's well written, just the information has already been known and discussed many times. Unless you know for a fact that the opponent you're playing is going 15 nex, or you're on Tal'darim, there's really no reason to NOT go 3 hatch before Lair and get a 10-15+ drone lead while being able to hold off just about any all in if you scout properly. If you're going to go against the metagame trend that many Protosses are struggling against, you better have a very good reason. | ||
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AnOtter
Australia25 Posts
On July 19 2012 18:12 Flonomenalz wrote: What are you talking about? Everyone knows eco 6-7 pool takes advantage of the ZvP metagame of FFE. Most people do it with a 6 pool, I thought maybe he would have something new to add with a 7 pool, maybe an X amount of drones pulled that guarantees a win against 15 nex, or maybe a 7 pool with a hatch cancel spine in the main after you've killed off the forge, idk, something NEW that most people don't know about already. If the Protoss reacts properly, if you drone up and expand before them (which you obviously should) at most you end up with a 4-8 drone lead (I haven't really tested it, but this is based off my experiences) depending on how many lings you made. That isn't good at all. The eco 6 pool relies on the Protoss messing up with probe micro, or blindly going 15 nex. Your subsequent all in relies on lack of scouting, like any all in. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to belittle the work you put into the guide. It's well written, just the information has already been known and discussed many times. Unless you know for a fact that the opponent you're playing is going 15 nex, or you're on Tal'darim, there's really no reason to NOT go 3 hatch before Lair and get a 10-15+ drone lead while being able to hold off just about any all in if you scout properly. If you're going to go against the metagame trend that many Protosses are struggling against, you better have a very good reason. Thanks for the feedback buddy, I wasn't aware that there were many recent guides on the eco ZvP 7 pool before I made this, must have been some kind of glitch with the search function :S. I also wasn't aware that it was possible to hold off any all in with a 10 drone lead on 3 hatches! That's a startling insight, I'll make sure to inform every pro zerg that has lost to sentry immortal in the last 6 months that their scouting just wasn't up to scratch! My condolences also to all the protoss players, none of whom currently enjoy a >50% winrate in PvZ because of the difficulty in beating 3 hatch. In future, I'll personally consult you before making a guide to ensure that my reasons are good enough. Thanks again for your insightful addition to this thread, and for going out of your way to avoid bellitling me by simply saying my work was pointless! =D | ||
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