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On July 19 2012 18:54 AnOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 18:12 Flonomenalz wrote:On July 19 2012 01:30 Sanctimonius wrote:On July 18 2012 21:22 Flonomenalz wrote:
So 7 pool into roach ling all in?
Um, okay, nice guide. Actually it is. If you watch the videos, which it seems you didn't you'll notice in some cases he ends up ahead on harvester count when he expands. So he's made a build that takes advantage of the current metagame (I must see like one in ten toss going gateway first), sets himself ahead where he can do what he wants - settle down for a macro game, all in or something in between. What are you talking about? Everyone knows eco 6-7 pool takes advantage of the ZvP metagame of FFE. Most people do it with a 6 pool, I thought maybe he would have something new to add with a 7 pool, maybe an X amount of drones pulled that guarantees a win against 15 nex, or maybe a 7 pool with a hatch cancel spine in the main after you've killed off the forge, idk, something NEW that most people don't know about already. If the Protoss reacts properly, if you drone up and expand before them (which you obviously should) at most you end up with a 4-8 drone lead (I haven't really tested it, but this is based off my experiences) depending on how many lings you made. That isn't good at all. The eco 6 pool relies on the Protoss messing up with probe micro, or blindly going 15 nex. Your subsequent all in relies on lack of scouting, like any all in. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to belittle the work you put into the guide. It's well written, just the information has already been known and discussed many times. Unless you know for a fact that the opponent you're playing is going 15 nex, or you're on Tal'darim, there's really no reason to NOT go 3 hatch before Lair and get a 10-15+ drone lead while being able to hold off just about any all in if you scout properly. If you're going to go against the metagame trend that many Protosses are struggling against, you better have a very good reason. Thanks for the feedback buddy, I wasn't aware that there were many recent guides on the eco ZvP 7 pool before I made this, must have been some kind of glitch with the search function :S. I also wasn't aware that it was possible to hold off any all in with a 10 drone lead on 3 hatches! That's a startling insight, I'll make sure to inform every pro zerg that has lost to sentry immortal in the last 6 months that their scouting just wasn't up to scratch! My condolences also to all the protoss players, none of whom currently enjoy a >50% winrate in PvZ because of the difficulty in beating 3 hatch. In future, I'll personally consult you before making a guide to ensure that my reasons are good enough. Thanks again for your insightful addition to this thread, and for going out of your way to avoid bellitling me by simply saying my work was pointless! =D
lulz. you're my new hero now :D
anyway, good guide, seems very interesting and will definitely try it out soon. thank you for your trouble 
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On July 19 2012 10:36 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 10:27 Moosegills wrote:On July 19 2012 10:22 ODKStevez wrote:
7 pool is very useful these days since every Protoss does the FFE build and the 7 pool will punish that. It doesn't "punish" it. As long as they scout it like a normal person would they just build pylon and cannon in base and they are ahead. Sure they are ahead that very moment, but they have to rebuild the forge and take a very late expo or try to kill you via 4gate (which is easy to stop). DRG did 6 pool vs hero in recent tournament, Hero opted for sacking forge and 4gating, DRG got speedlings and kept threatening a backstab until his econ was strong, and eventually won via muta. Unless toss does a full wall off and stops the lings from getting in his base, you can do a lot of economic damage and buy yourself plenty of time to drone up.
The expo isn't that late, not nearly as late relative to the zerg expo. And they don't need to build the forge before the nexus either.
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I used to do this all the time as high-diamond/low-masters. What I've come to realize is:
- If you manage to get ahead with this, it's because your opponent didn't react correctly (i.e. give up expo, make pylon in minerals).
- If your opponent goes anything else than standard FFE or Nexus first, this puts you behind. Earlier forge timings will get the cannon in time negating any damage, gateway first obviously negates any potential damage except perhaps a little bit of lost mining time if they pull probes.
- On larger, 4-player maps, you have to drone scout very early in addition to sending the overlord, which delays the 3rd pair of zerglings and further puts you behind.
So, while this does work well against players unfamiliar with the build, it's definitely sub-optimal compared to the classic 14-15pool, 3 base opening.
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Having a 7 pool in your BO book for best of X series' is good, but only to be used at the right time, ie against players that don't scout early, on 4 player maps where you know your opponent only 1 probe scouts, etc.
I have to agree with Qxz here, this is a sub-optimal build to be doing as your standard. It only wins when your opponent makes a mistake in reacting, and reacting correctly is not hard. Diamond and below - probably works well. In Masters+ this won't work very well.
-High Masters Protoss
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This is kind of a joke to be honest. There are builds that work on low levels and builds that rely on an improper response to not lose outright. I've seen people end up ahead in harvesters after a 1base baneling bust after a 1rax gasless fe. Does that mean but build is good? No. Does that mean the build is not all-in and is simply a "pressure" build? No. Could I catch someone in high masters/gm off guard with a 3rax scv pull TvP vs a nexus first and then kill all probes but one and pull back with 7 scvs? Yes. Could I claim to have a harvester lead? Yes. Was it an all-in? Obviously. All of the arguments in here are rather dim-witted and boneheaded, especially the ones that refer to this build as an eco-7pool. There is no such things. I could 4gate and after it fails start building probes and a nexus. Does this make my build an "eco 4gate"? No obbviously not.
Accept the post for what it is. Someone who wanted to "contribute" wrote a guide for 7pooling and realized they could do a roach/ling all-in behind it. Ok. Very nice.
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On July 20 2012 03:29 soulglider009 wrote:
Having a 7 pool in your BO book for best of X series' is good, but only to be used at the right time, ie against players that don't scout early, on 4 player maps where you know your opponent only 1 probe scouts, etc.
I have to agree with Qxz here, this is a sub-optimal build to be doing as your standard. It only wins when your opponent makes a mistake in reacting, and reacting correctly is not hard. Diamond and below - probably works well. In Masters+ this won't work very well.
-High Masters Protoss
This is exactly what I am saying, except this guy stated it much nicer than me and with less explination and counter-argument. I'm even a high masters protoss. Most likely this man is my twin (I am the evil twin)
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On July 18 2012 16:12 AnOtter wrote:
This version of the 7 pool is definitely not an all in
...
It is not without risk, however, as if you totally fail to damage his economy you will pretty much straight up lose D=. WAT
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Yeah... mods feel free to close this... uh... guide.
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Don't be silly. It's a good guide and he's obviously put a good amount of effort into it.
I just thought that minor contradiction was hilarious. 
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On July 20 2012 13:23 GleaM wrote:
Yeah... mods feel free to close this... uh... guide.
What? And I thought all the other posters who like to dispense unwarranted, uncalled for disciplinary action were annoying.
He put time and effort into it, there's no reason for it not to stay.
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Thanks for the build. I'll give it a try!
On July 20 2012 13:23 GleaM wrote:
Yeah... mods feel free to close this... uh... guide.
Yeah...mods feel free to ban this... uh... troll.
Oh it doesn't work like that? Someone unrelated to the original post that disagrees with the original post can't have the thread closed? Good to know..
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Troll? Lol might as well rename the guild "CHEESE YOUR WAY TO DIAMOND AND HERE'S HOW!!!!"
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EPT
