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[G] PvT 1 base Colossus Pressure - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Ziem
Profile Joined October 2011
United States9 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-05 23:52:03
July 05 2012 23:51 GMT
#41
Just as a slight correction, you use 4 chrono on probes, not 3. The build order is slightly off with only 3 chronos.
Starshaped
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Sweden575 Posts
July 05 2012 23:53 GMT
#42
1base collo all-ins have been around since beta.

Lol'd at calling it "pressure" btw.
My Starcraft 2, gaming and e-sports-related blog: http://starshapedthoughts.blogspot.com/
Payson
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States394 Posts
July 06 2012 00:05 GMT
#43
On July 06 2012 08:53 Starshaped wrote:
1base collo all-ins have been around since beta.

Lol'd at calling it "pressure" btw.


It's not all in considering you still get an expansion, even though rather late in the build. The build forces you to micro correctly and pressure the terran enough to get an expansion up behind your pressure while having the possibility of doing an insane amount of damage if the terran would react incorrectly.

If you fail with the colossi drop and do no damage, yes you're literally dead, but you still are able to expand behind this build.
MadProbe
Profile Joined February 2012
United States269 Posts
July 06 2012 01:20 GMT
#44
1base speedprism colo drop timing attack. this is fucking badass. thanks!
Smoodish
Profile Joined April 2011
United States95 Posts
July 06 2012 01:58 GMT
#45
This looks really cool, ill try it out on ladder =]
ajkayken
Profile Joined June 2012
77 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-06 03:40:27
July 06 2012 03:32 GMT
#46
On July 06 2012 09:05 Payson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2012 08:53 Starshaped wrote:
1base collo all-ins have been around since beta.

Lol'd at calling it "pressure" btw.


It's not all in considering you still get an expansion, even though rather late in the build. The build forces you to micro correctly and pressure the terran enough to get an expansion up behind your pressure while having the possibility of doing an insane amount of damage if the terran would react incorrectly.

If you fail with the colossi drop and do no damage, yes you're literally dead, but you still are able to expand behind this build.



well you could call 4gate a pressure build because you can expand behind it. and you could not call it an all-in because "if you do damage with it then its not all-in you can expand behind it and win, so its not an all-in"

however u say it yourself your dead if it does no damage. And thats what people MEAN when they say its all-in.

however at the same time what exactly IS an all-in really? is it just all-in if your hoping your attack does damage or you lose?

i say no i think theres two kinds of all-ins and people use the term so much but i think i can pinpoint two uses.

the definition of all-in is very sporadic

The first kind of all-in is what MVP did to squirtle in the last game of the last GSL. its fun to call that all-in because MVP is clearly taking a majority of his pieces and throwing them all at the enemy. When you see that its entertaining to call that all-in.

Then the second kind of all-in could be seen as a 4gate where if your enemy scouts it right you probably will be dead.





Is this build the first or second kind of all-in?

its the second. however, it might not even fit that definition because honestly id say looking at standard terran play it seems almost impossible that this cant deal tons of damage and expand too. So really even if the terran scouts this I dont think its that bad of a build because collossi is extremely strong against marines and gateways are strong against marauders with no medivacs and thats when this hits.

Id say this collossi build seems very powerful because even IF scouted it seems like you still will always do tons of damage while expanding.



I have some suggested for the build. I doubt the speed prism is even really needed. You could probably do more damage if you just saved that money on speed, somehow modified the build to get less gas in that case which saves money, and possibly just add in another gateway and have 4gate+collossi+prism attack while expanding

given the fact that 4gate is really strong against marauders with no medivacs, and collossi is good against marines, it would probably still work and inflict lots of damage


just given the nature of terran units and that they are weaker in low numbers when theres no medivacs means this build could probably still work really well even if scouted more testing is needed tho to see if thats a correct statement or not

i think builds like this could have promise because you bypass the bunkers completely and then what, hes fighting collossi+4gate with nonmedivac'ed bio and zero bunkers. seems hard to hold





EDIT: holy crap i just realized something. you dont need the 4th gate because the robo can just keep producing collossi and rally them up the cliff to your prism (they need to walk across the map, but who cares). so in that scenario, the robo can behave just like the 4th gateway constantly bringing units to battle, only problem is they need to walk to the terran base but thats not too big of a problem

i was originally thinking about using 4gates because maxed 1base saturation can produce off 4gates and eventually expand from mineral buildup, and i was thinking if your gonna pressure might as well do it with 4gates for the stronger pressure

but then i realize heck you can use the robo as your 4th gate since collossi can walk up cliffs producing the same effect really.
Salient
Profile Joined August 2011
United States876 Posts
July 06 2012 16:13 GMT
#47
IMO the build is not "all in" because it is not designed to either win or lose the game on the basis of an attack. It is designed to be aggressive, apply pressure, and expand. It probably isn't the most "safe" play, but it gets tech and a somewhat quick expo. So, unlike a 4 gate, you can be okay if you only do some damage.
ishyishy
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
July 06 2012 16:25 GMT
#48
All in or not, I dont understand what makes that a negative thing. If the terran is doing a 2 rax or 3 rax off 1 base, this can probably just stay on 1 base and crush it. If your micro is good, then I can see this crushing 1/1/1 too.

I hate how people think anything other than the quickest, greediest expand builds ever is an "all in" and thus it is bad. All in's arent bad. They are meant to win games or punish greedy play of the opponent.
Creager
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1893 Posts
July 06 2012 17:51 GMT
#49
lost to a similar build yesterday when I tried to 1 rax FE... pretty hard to scout if you don't scan at the right time and location, cause you could hide the robobay very easily, I guess. When I scouted early double gas I was misassuming a DT rush :/ Any good builds besides proxy rax or a possible 3 rax (although on the huge maps nowadays this build feels quite weak )?
... einmal mit Profis spielen!
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
July 06 2012 18:29 GMT
#50
i was originally thinking about using 4gates because maxed 1base saturation can produce off 4gates and eventually expand from mineral buildup


No it cant, if you are chrono boosting your production, hitting every warp perfectly and focusing on stalkers you will struggle to use 3, they cost 53% more resources per minute to build than zealots. Gateway counts are largely focused on the burst of units you get from the first 1-3 warp cycles, and not sustainability, and you will choke hard if you try to constantly produce with any "standard" amount of gates unless you are only making pure zealot or something
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
ajkayken
Profile Joined June 2012
77 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-06 18:46:53
July 06 2012 18:46 GMT
#51
On July 07 2012 03:29 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
i was originally thinking about using 4gates because maxed 1base saturation can produce off 4gates and eventually expand from mineral buildup


No it cant, if you are chrono boosting your production, hitting every warp perfectly and focusing on stalkers you will struggle to use 3, they cost 53% more resources per minute to build than zealots. Gateway counts are largely focused on the burst of units you get from the first 1-3 warp cycles, and not sustainability, and you will choke hard if you try to constantly produce with any "standard" amount of gates unless you are only making pure zealot or something


hmm your probably right but usually human error makes 5-10 seconds of error on perfect warpgate usage+chrono

lets look at the math

1base saturation (20 probes minerals 6 gas) gives 750 minerals per minute income with 230 gas

lets expand this to 240 seconds just to make it easier, 1 robo makes 3 collossi in 240 seconds (no chronoboost)

in 240 seconds 1base gets 3000 minerals 920 gas


3 collossi is 900 minerals 800 gas
2 stalkers is 250 minerals 100 gas
what remains is 1850 minerals 20gas

thats 18 zealots. but 18 zealots+2stalkers+3collossi is 58food requiring 7 pylons for 56food
pay for 7 pylons, thats 7 less zealots meaning you need 2 less pylons. giving you 2 more zealots.

seems like the magic number here is 12zealots+2stalkers+3collossi. 6pylons. spends all the money and those units are 46food which 6pylons provide


1 warpgate counting chronoboosts and human error (lagtime) will make ~6 units in 240 seconds on average id say considering you need to micro / macro / do everything its hard to hit perfect times. i know stalkers take more time but lets just assume that dont matter because the extra stalker time fits into the human error meaning its the same time.

So i guess you really only need 2gates and with PERFECT macro you should be able to spend all your money. but thats hard to do. And with 3gates you spend all of your money.

However there is also the factor of losing units in battle and not needing to make pylons. When you fight the enemy and units die you no longer need to make pylons so that saved pylon money can start to pile up with every battle and eventually pay for an expansion

But i guess looking at the number 2gates is probably the smartest amount while constantly rally'ing collossi across the map and up your enemies cliff to join the battle and you just gotta concentrate super hard on macro'ing perfectly. Then you can apply heavy pressure while expanding.
derpinator
Profile Joined December 2011
74 Posts
July 06 2012 20:42 GMT
#52
Oh nice, another shitty build that allows players who play protoss to play above their actual skill level and depending on terrans to lose through bad scouting. This doesnt look GM level to me at all, especially when OP describes he used to 4gate warpprism in TVP. Its shit like this why protoss players have such a bad rep as being the worst players in SC2 compared to the other two races.

User was warned for this post
ThePianoDentist
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom698 Posts
July 07 2012 00:04 GMT
#53
cool, looks fun to play, will try tomorrow!
Brood War Protoss, SC2 Terran/Protoss
P7GAB
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada486 Posts
July 07 2012 00:29 GMT
#54
On July 07 2012 05:42 derpinator wrote:
Oh nice, another shitty build that allows players who play protoss to play above their actual skill level and depending on terrans to lose through bad scouting. This doesnt look GM level to me at all, especially when OP describes he used to 4gate warpprism in TVP. Its shit like this why protoss players have such a bad rep as being the worst players in SC2 compared to the other two races.


right and 1-1-1's aren't the exact same?
moskonia
Profile Joined January 2011
Israel1448 Posts
July 07 2012 00:41 GMT
#55
ajkaken,
3 collossi is 900 minerals 800 gas


Wrong, colo is 300/200, so its 900/600 (not saying I disgree with the rest of your comment, just pointing out )
ajkayken
Profile Joined June 2012
77 Posts
July 07 2012 00:53 GMT
#56
On July 07 2012 09:41 moskonia wrote:
ajkaken,
Show nested quote +
3 collossi is 900 minerals 800 gas


Wrong, colo is 300/200, so its 900/600 (not saying I disgree with the rest of your comment, just pointing out )


dang i knew something looked weird

lol so that means u can get more stalkers which is nice
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-07 01:09:10
July 07 2012 00:56 GMT
#57
On July 07 2012 05:42 derpinator wrote:
Oh nice, another shitty build that allows players who play protoss to play above their actual skill level and depending on terrans to lose through bad scouting. This doesnt look GM level to me at all, especially when OP describes he used to 4gate warpprism in TVP. Its shit like this why protoss players have such a bad rep as being the worst players in SC2 compared to the other two races.

Yes, that's what the OP said. So what? You aren't contributing to the build discussion from either end (execution or defense).

I would much rather see threads here about common builds and how they work than balance whining. It's very frustrating to play against a strong all-in and when you look it up on TL there is no discussion at all about it.

One of the biggest problems a 4 gate warp prism build has is trying to unload in someone's base when they have units in position and are cautious, especially if they know it is coming. The colossus helps you get into their base regardless, though it delays you by enough that a well prepared terran can have a viking with turrets in good places (out of range of colossus/low ground). ForGG vs PuCK shows a great defense of the more economic harassment build:
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
July 07 2012 07:16 GMT
#58
hmm your probably right but usually human error makes 5-10 seconds of error on perfect warpgate usage+chrono


I would hope not, because a chrono'd warpgate has a cooldown of 13.464 real seconds to produce a zealot. That kind of error margin is beyond stupid if you are looking for sustained production. People (pros) miss large margins of production on warpgates all the time, but that is largely because warpgates are best used as spiky production (in a tight timing) or in other macro ways much more complicated and varied than sustained production, like a terran would do with marines vs Z
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
TheRealFluid
Profile Joined June 2011
United States501 Posts
July 07 2012 09:05 GMT
#59
With this build is there anything that you can scout in which you can change this from a pressure to expo build to a "fucking kill him" build?
"The wings don't make you fly and the crown don't make you king.||"What do you say to god of gg? NOT TODAY" -John the Translator. "Give me Command" -Yellow.
babybell
Profile Joined June 2011
776 Posts
July 07 2012 10:43 GMT
#60
The only down side of this build is that it crushes diamond terrans completely, they rage, and then I have to build 2 stargates to chase the floating buildings.
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