EPT[G] PvT 1 base Colossus Pressure - Page 3
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Ziem
United States9 Posts
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
Lol'd at calling it "pressure" btw. | ||
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Payson
United States394 Posts
On July 06 2012 08:53 Starshaped wrote: 1base collo all-ins have been around since beta. Lol'd at calling it "pressure" btw. It's not all in considering you still get an expansion, even though rather late in the build. The build forces you to micro correctly and pressure the terran enough to get an expansion up behind your pressure while having the possibility of doing an insane amount of damage if the terran would react incorrectly. If you fail with the colossi drop and do no damage, yes you're literally dead, but you still are able to expand behind this build. | ||
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MadProbe
United States269 Posts
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Smoodish
United States95 Posts
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ajkayken
77 Posts
On July 06 2012 09:05 Payson wrote: It's not all in considering you still get an expansion, even though rather late in the build. The build forces you to micro correctly and pressure the terran enough to get an expansion up behind your pressure while having the possibility of doing an insane amount of damage if the terran would react incorrectly. If you fail with the colossi drop and do no damage, yes you're literally dead, but you still are able to expand behind this build. well you could call 4gate a pressure build because you can expand behind it. and you could not call it an all-in because "if you do damage with it then its not all-in you can expand behind it and win, so its not an all-in" however u say it yourself your dead if it does no damage. And thats what people MEAN when they say its all-in. however at the same time what exactly IS an all-in really? is it just all-in if your hoping your attack does damage or you lose? i say no i think theres two kinds of all-ins and people use the term so much but i think i can pinpoint two uses. the definition of all-in is very sporadic The first kind of all-in is what MVP did to squirtle in the last game of the last GSL. its fun to call that all-in because MVP is clearly taking a majority of his pieces and throwing them all at the enemy. When you see that its entertaining to call that all-in. Then the second kind of all-in could be seen as a 4gate where if your enemy scouts it right you probably will be dead. Is this build the first or second kind of all-in? its the second. however, it might not even fit that definition because honestly id say looking at standard terran play it seems almost impossible that this cant deal tons of damage and expand too. So really even if the terran scouts this I dont think its that bad of a build because collossi is extremely strong against marines and gateways are strong against marauders with no medivacs and thats when this hits. Id say this collossi build seems very powerful because even IF scouted it seems like you still will always do tons of damage while expanding. I have some suggested for the build. I doubt the speed prism is even really needed. You could probably do more damage if you just saved that money on speed, somehow modified the build to get less gas in that case which saves money, and possibly just add in another gateway and have 4gate+collossi+prism attack while expanding given the fact that 4gate is really strong against marauders with no medivacs, and collossi is good against marines, it would probably still work and inflict lots of damage just given the nature of terran units and that they are weaker in low numbers when theres no medivacs means this build could probably still work really well even if scouted more testing is needed tho to see if thats a correct statement or not i think builds like this could have promise because you bypass the bunkers completely and then what, hes fighting collossi+4gate with nonmedivac'ed bio and zero bunkers. seems hard to hold EDIT: holy crap i just realized something. you dont need the 4th gate because the robo can just keep producing collossi and rally them up the cliff to your prism (they need to walk across the map, but who cares). so in that scenario, the robo can behave just like the 4th gateway constantly bringing units to battle, only problem is they need to walk to the terran base but thats not too big of a problem i was originally thinking about using 4gates because maxed 1base saturation can produce off 4gates and eventually expand from mineral buildup, and i was thinking if your gonna pressure might as well do it with 4gates for the stronger pressure but then i realize heck you can use the robo as your 4th gate since collossi can walk up cliffs producing the same effect really. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
I hate how people think anything other than the quickest, greediest expand builds ever is an "all in" and thus it is bad. All in's arent bad. They are meant to win games or punish greedy play of the opponent. | ||
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Creager
Germany1923 Posts
 )? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
i was originally thinking about using 4gates because maxed 1base saturation can produce off 4gates and eventually expand from mineral buildup No it cant, if you are chrono boosting your production, hitting every warp perfectly and focusing on stalkers you will struggle to use 3, they cost 53% more resources per minute to build than zealots. Gateway counts are largely focused on the burst of units you get from the first 1-3 warp cycles, and not sustainability, and you will choke hard if you try to constantly produce with any "standard" amount of gates unless you are only making pure zealot or something | ||
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ajkayken
77 Posts
On July 07 2012 03:29 Cyro wrote: No it cant, if you are chrono boosting your production, hitting every warp perfectly and focusing on stalkers you will struggle to use 3, they cost 53% more resources per minute to build than zealots. Gateway counts are largely focused on the burst of units you get from the first 1-3 warp cycles, and not sustainability, and you will choke hard if you try to constantly produce with any "standard" amount of gates unless you are only making pure zealot or something hmm your probably right but usually human error makes 5-10 seconds of error on perfect warpgate usage+chrono lets look at the math 1base saturation (20 probes minerals 6 gas) gives 750 minerals per minute income with 230 gas lets expand this to 240 seconds just to make it easier, 1 robo makes 3 collossi in 240 seconds (no chronoboost) in 240 seconds 1base gets 3000 minerals 920 gas 3 collossi is 900 minerals 800 gas 2 stalkers is 250 minerals 100 gas what remains is 1850 minerals 20gas thats 18 zealots. but 18 zealots+2stalkers+3collossi is 58food requiring 7 pylons for 56food pay for 7 pylons, thats 7 less zealots meaning you need 2 less pylons. giving you 2 more zealots. seems like the magic number here is 12zealots+2stalkers+3collossi. 6pylons. spends all the money and those units are 46food which 6pylons provide 1 warpgate counting chronoboosts and human error (lagtime) will make ~6 units in 240 seconds on average id say considering you need to micro / macro / do everything its hard to hit perfect times. i know stalkers take more time but lets just assume that dont matter because the extra stalker time fits into the human error meaning its the same time. So i guess you really only need 2gates and with PERFECT macro you should be able to spend all your money. but thats hard to do. And with 3gates you spend all of your money. However there is also the factor of losing units in battle and not needing to make pylons. When you fight the enemy and units die you no longer need to make pylons so that saved pylon money can start to pile up with every battle and eventually pay for an expansion But i guess looking at the number 2gates is probably the smartest amount while constantly rally'ing collossi across the map and up your enemies cliff to join the battle and you just gotta concentrate super hard on macro'ing perfectly. Then you can apply heavy pressure while expanding. | ||
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derpinator
74 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
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P7GAB
Canada486 Posts
On July 07 2012 05:42 derpinator wrote: Oh nice, another shitty build that allows players who play protoss to play above their actual skill level and depending on terrans to lose through bad scouting. This doesnt look GM level to me at all, especially when OP describes he used to 4gate warpprism in TVP. Its shit like this why protoss players have such a bad rep as being the worst players in SC2 compared to the other two races. right and 1-1-1's aren't the exact same? | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
3 collossi is 900 minerals 800 gas Wrong, colo is 300/200, so its 900/600 (not saying I disgree with the rest of your comment, just pointing out  ) | ||
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ajkayken
77 Posts
On July 07 2012 09:41 moskonia wrote: ajkaken, Wrong, colo is 300/200, so its 900/600 (not saying I disgree with the rest of your comment, just pointing out )dang i knew something looked weird lol so that means u can get more stalkers which is nice | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On July 07 2012 05:42 derpinator wrote: Oh nice, another shitty build that allows players who play protoss to play above their actual skill level and depending on terrans to lose through bad scouting. This doesnt look GM level to me at all, especially when OP describes he used to 4gate warpprism in TVP. Its shit like this why protoss players have such a bad rep as being the worst players in SC2 compared to the other two races. Yes, that's what the OP said. So what? You aren't contributing to the build discussion from either end (execution or defense). I would much rather see threads here about common builds and how they work than balance whining. It's very frustrating to play against a strong all-in and when you look it up on TL there is no discussion at all about it. One of the biggest problems a 4 gate warp prism build has is trying to unload in someone's base when they have units in position and are cautious, especially if they know it is coming. The colossus helps you get into their base regardless, though it delays you by enough that a well prepared terran can have a viking with turrets in good places (out of range of colossus/low ground). ForGG vs PuCK shows a great defense of the more economic harassment build: | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
hmm your probably right but usually human error makes 5-10 seconds of error on perfect warpgate usage+chrono I would hope not, because a chrono'd warpgate has a cooldown of 13.464 real seconds to produce a zealot. That kind of error margin is beyond stupid if you are looking for sustained production. People (pros) miss large margins of production on warpgates all the time, but that is largely because warpgates are best used as spiky production (in a tight timing) or in other macro ways much more complicated and varied than sustained production, like a terran would do with marines vs Z | ||
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TheRealFluid
United States501 Posts
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babybell
776 Posts
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