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^ You didn't really post a build, you posted an opening. Your opening is more like gasless hatch first, and most importantly, you can't take a fast third with your opening.
I'm asking how to beat ling/infestor using standard, fast third play. I would prefer not to do a 2 base roach all-in like your build does, which no pro currently seems to do in ZvZ.
However, it does seem more and more like maybe I should go with 2 base lair style play, which your build does do well. It just seems quite all-in.
And the problem isn't the mid-game anyways. The problem is the late-game, and so far no one has given me an answer better than 'just all-in them'. Thanks, but not every time your all-in works. Not to mention I can't really all-in if I took a fast third. So what do I do when we both took our thirds, and I may or may not have done a lot of damage with roach pressure but the opponent is still alive, finally gets his third with ling/infestor/spine, and now has ultras out.
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On June 13 2012 02:56 Belial88 wrote:
^ You didn't really post a build, you posted an opening. Your opening is more like gasless hatch first, and most importantly, you can't take a fast third with your opening.
I'm asking how to beat ling/infestor using standard, fast third play. I would prefer not to do a 2 base roach all-in like your build does, which no pro currently seems to do in ZvZ.
However, it does seem more and more like maybe I should go with 2 base lair style play, which your build does do well. It just seems quite all-in.
And the problem isn't the mid-game anyways. The problem is the late-game, and so far no one has given me an answer better than 'just all-in them'. Thanks, but not every time your all-in works. Not to mention I can't really all-in if I took a fast third. So what do I do when we both took our thirds, and I may or may not have done a lot of damage with roach pressure but the opponent is still alive, finally gets his third with ling/infestor/spine, and now has ultras out.
The only reason I said this was because on the Cloud Kingdom game specifically your opponent was being super greedy which you cannot let them get away with zvz.
I have some issues with this style as well but generally I can kill my opponent off of 3 base saturation with 5 gas, if it seems my opponent will hold such a thing I've been trying broodlords lately with some success. They're very slow though so during the transition spines are a must.
3-3 roaches hold up well against 3-5 ultras if you split well and don't get fungaled to death.
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hey hey look at this game. this player utilised nydus well, true that opponent did not see the nydus, but it does make sense.
OL drops are too slow, reinforcements slow, OL can get fungalled etc.
http://www.twitch.tv/eg_idra/b/321250148
game at 30 minutes!!!
no need to max out, no need infestors even. ( he couldve tech infestors instead of OL drop)
even if ultras do pop 2 main and natural were dead already. (if he relocated all spines to natural then our beloved zerg player can nydus a place close to the third.
and 4:15:00 vs giX!!!
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http://drop.sc/197315
So I just had this game. I had an emergency at the end where I had to leave, I wasn't bm'ing in return to the guy who was bm.
I take a fast third, I see his mass spine/hive plan, so I deny his fourth with roaches before his ultras come. Then he has a huge ultra/infestor/queen/ling army, and I barely survive against it and push him back, but he's on 4 bases. I deny his 5th base, I have 5 bases running, but he just turtles hardcore, masses up another army of mass ultras, and wins. I go for broodlord tech but decide not to because it would be too spread out.
I don't know how to beat this in lategame at all. He just turtles up an ultra deathball and beats me.
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I can only comment on how my games go. If he's turtling on two bases till hive, you've got plenty of ways of denying his third base, no?
Keep a roach burrowed, keep attacking it, but for the love of god don't let him get to 3 bases when he's on hive tech. Its exactly like dealing with the Protoss 2base turteled Deathball, except you now have to deal with his speedlings. - At least thats the easiest way of doing things.
8 minutes into the game he's just ahead in everything. He's got more speedlings, more drones, a slightly later third. I don't see him turtelling up behind a wall, I see him outmacroing you. You choose to suicide a crapton of lings for absolutely nothing. About 12 drones worth of resources given to his SLOW LINGS for free.
At 10 minutes his upgrades are equal to yours. Since you've delayed +1 missiles, you cannot get out +2 fast enough for any ling attacks, making them extremely cost effective with even just slightly decent surrounds.
At 12 minutes you see a done hive. You know you cannot attack as your upgrades are behind what they should be. You've been behind in the drone count, and even if he's tossing up a spinecrawler wall, you're still only even. If he had played Roach/Infestor perfectly from this position, he had crushed you aswell.
At 17 minutes you've let him get up bases to mine from 4 extra gasses than what you've currently got mining.
At 19 minutes he's attacking into infested Terrans where he could just walk back. Not only that, he also chose to engage just before his upgrades finished. ( He was being bad ) This gives you a fairly decent trade - but he's been mining on extra bases while you've just gotten your 4th gasses up. You know what it means to be so far behind in gas, especially when you're outmatched army wise...
So it comes down to you not having an answer when your opponent takes a fast third because you cannot put on pressure, that or you being unable to reliably secure a fast fourth against it. The fact that you had not scouted his 5th for 5 minutes doesn't help.
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He's not turtling on 2 bases to hive, he's turtling on 2 base until infestors, then turtling on 3 base with spine/infestor/ling/counterattacks until ultras.
There's nothing wrong with someone taking a fast third in zvz. it's how it's 'supposed' to be played, once you have baneling tech you can take your third provided the opponent isn't doing a roach/ling all-in with 25 drones, which is pretty easy to stop on it's own and easy to identify (which is why no one does it anymore). There's not realy much pressure you can do against a fast third besides hoping the opponent didn't morph 4 banes there. You can however deny the third if he takes it and you go third, and then he doesn't make roaches while you get speedroaches, as you'll hit before his infestors are out. But if he takes his third when his infestors are out, he's good, and then he gets hive, ultras, and deathball wins.
Anyways, I've started playing like this myself, because I don't see any way to beat it. I've just been crushing everyone. It's such a terrible way to play, you don't give a shit what the opponent is doing. Oh your doing a roach/ling all-in? it's okay, I'm massing spines anyways on 2 base. Oh you are taking a fast third and playing standard and now I'm way behind economically? It's okay, I'll just get lots of infestors and spines and eventually take my third and get ultras. Oh you are going mutas? It's okay, I got infestors coming out at the same time.
I haven't lost at all doing this myself, even when playing clearly better opponents. As long as you make enough spines to hold any sort of pressure, you'll get 3 bases, and then you win because with 3 bases you can get that ultra/infestor/ling army out that's just unstoppable by anything except another ultra/infestor army.
I don't think I'll even go hatch first anymore in ZvZ. what's the point of going hatch first if economy isn't even important in zvz anymore.
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great thing about mirror matchups:
If you can't beat em, join em (with more drones : D)
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On June 08 2012 12:09 chebhe wrote:
roach bane allin will not work against mutas, which the OP said his opponent opened muta.
The mutas will shoot all the banes as you walk to the base.
A pure ling spine infestor mix does sound like it would struggle with roach bane ..
Roach/Bane hits before mutas are out which is why its so strong vs muta openers
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Your mineral dump is worthless compared to theirs. Less drones = faster gas, more army food + hit at earlier timing. 63-65 drones sweet spot for roach-based army.
Emphasis on +2 range, roaches 2 shot lings regardless of armor upgrades.
Banelings seem the easy way out for defending runbys, but they are not efficient (can't even 1 shot +1 armor lings). Rely on pre-split army and fungals for defence.
Go heavy on hydras, they shred lings, spines, infested terrans, ultras. Infestors are just used as support units for fungaling lings.
DO NOT let the game get to the stage where they have full energy infestors with upgraded ultras. You should be able to hit the timing comfortably before ultras pop, or at least force them to use up all their energy. It's not that tight of a timing either. Do not give in to the temptation to move your whole army back to defend once you decide to move out. The game will most likely turn into a scrappy base trade, but you will have the advantage in your army.
The hard part is pretty much minimizing damage so that you can hit at the desired timing. Personally, i have experimented with ling infestor but switch back to roaches after figuring out the limitations of the build. Never once, i have felt roach/hydras/infestors to be inferior to ling/infestors. If i lost, it's always due to being too far behind, or making mistakes myself especially during the base trade.
Large maps like daybreak/metropolis are different though. Ling/infestors are damn bloody strong there, shown by korean's preference to use them in recent televised matches. But still they are not yet the automatically go-to build on those maps.
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tbh quiet enjoying this style of ling/infestor into ultra zvz. Don't know the best way to fight 5/3 ultra's and hard to engage him before ultra's pop due to infestors stopping you if he fungels right.
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On June 14 2012 17:30 blade55555 wrote:
tbh quiet enjoying this style of ling/infestor into ultra zvz. Don't know the best way to fight 5/3 ultra's and hard to engage him before ultra's pop due to infestors stopping you if he fungels right.
I'm having trouble surviving 2 base roach in the mid game before my infestors are out with this style.
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On June 14 2012 12:40 Belial88 wrote:
He's not turtling on 2 bases to hive, he's turtling on 2 base until infestors, then turtling on 3 base with spine/infestor/ling/counterattacks until ultras.
There's nothing wrong with someone taking a fast third in zvz...
Dude, his third is placed at 8 minutes and his Infestation pit is placed at 9.15. His Glands upgrade + the first infestors are out at 10:50 earliest. If you LET him do that and complain about "economy not mattering" you're just being biased and blind. The funny bit is, he even delayed his Infestors till 12 min. "Turtles on two base till Infestor" I don't quite see that.
I did update my thread with all the reactions. I do not believe you can play roach styles against this without denying that third till at least 10 minutes where the first infestors pop out, as he later in the game always has the counterattack option. Just for the record, at the time my 25 +1 roaches hits at his third, he'll have 30 lings, no upgrades on them for the next minute and the creep has only just started spreading, meaning no spines. Heck, he only HAD two spines and was being super duper greedy!..
And while he was being greedy, you placed a ton of extra spines. If anything those minerals should've helped you take your fourth way way way earlier.
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noob question, has anyone considered opening 15 gaz 15 pool and get the speed really fast (then hatch at 21, and 1rst evo at 21) for the lings/infestor to ultra style? I feel like it's better than hatch first as it really confuses the opponent. Im only a plat but it seemed to work very well against the masters with whom i played. I always manage to get a queen, a few drones killed or sneek into the main only to keep my lings delaying his harvesting for a minimum cost. When then he comes with baneling/lings or roaches iam already bunkered with one evo (the 21 evo is in my main), few spines and lots of 1/1 lings. I dunno, to me it sounds like a logical opening to go into a 1/1 lings before reaching the mid game. I might be missing something essential or putting myself at risk but give it a though, im curious to know what you brains think of this opening in the zvz ultras gameplay.
Honestly i hope this ultra thing ill become the meta game, i used to be really good in zvz but now i am so lost i don't get it anymore.
You might have talked about it previoulsy but i didn't have the time to read all the thread sry if it's the case.
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I've also been going up against this ling/infestor/ultra style recently.
The way I've dealt with it is, turtle the same way you do against mutas, play for pure defense at the start.
Once you have at least 4-5 infestors to support your roaches, thats when you attack.
Roach/Infestor > Ling/Infestor before Ultralisks hit.
The zerglings melt, while your roaches stay alive (micro them to increase effectiveness vs their fungals).
You can't just rely on making a roach/baneling attack if your banelings get fungaled, always good to fight infestor with infestor.
Just keep the pressure on with constant roaches from there, while you expand behind it and add hydralisks to the mix.
If you get to the point where I belive they have well over 5 Ultralisks with a decent infestor count, you can't attack any longer.
When I'm usually in this situation, I spine up my own bases, spread them out as much as I can and play defensive once again until I got Roach/Hydra/Infestor maxed out (Play cost effective). Adding in 4-5 Broodlords helps.
Kite those fat asses and drop IT bombs as much as you can at home, when you got the edge, you make your attack.
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On June 15 2012 01:41 Keyz1 wrote:
I've also been going up against this ling/infestor/ultra style recently.
The way I've dealt with it is, turtle the same way you do against mutas, play for pure defense at the start.
Once you have at least 4-5 infestors to support your roaches, thats when you attack.
Roach/Infestor > Ling/Infestor before Ultralisks hit.
The zerglings melt, while your roaches stay alive (micro them to increase effectiveness vs their fungals).
You can't just rely on making a roach/baneling attack if your banelings get fungaled, always good to fight infestor with infestor.
Just keep the pressure on with constant roaches from there, while you expand behind it and add hydralisks to the mix.
If you get to the point where I belive they have well over 5 Ultralisks with a decent infestor count, you can't attack any longer.
When I'm usually in this situation, I spine up my own bases, spread them out as much as I can and play defensive once again until I got Roach/Hydra/Infestor maxed out (Play cost effective). Adding in 4-5 Broodlords helps.
Kite those fat asses and drop IT bombs as much as you can at home, when you got the edge, you make your attack.
Even if you attack before ultras hit, a good opponent's fungals and spinewall will be more than enough to hold (couple GSTL examples already this season). He can simply patiently fungal roaches while spines do sick damage, and then mop up your red and yellow oranges with 1/1 or 2/2 lings. It's not as easy as a timing push solution (or so it seems to me at the moment)...
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On June 15 2012 02:37 IPA wrote:
Even if you attack before ultras hit, a good opponent's fungals and spinewall will be more than enough to hold (couple GSTL examples already this season). He can simply patiently fungal roaches while spines do sick damage, and then mop up your red and yellow oranges with 1/1 or 2/2 lings. It's not as easy as a timing push solution (or so it seems to me at the moment)...
Dunno about that, I've never sent my full army of roaches into a spine crawler wall for no reason, you can easily scout it with 1 unit and then attack a different area. If he's spining up so much and playing turtle, it doesn't stop you from doing the same.
If you attack once you have a decent infestor count, you can eliminate the spinecrawler threat with enough infested terrans in different spots, right before you engage with your roaches.
Bottom line, if you stay on a bad composition too long in that matchup (keep making only roaches), or have a bad defense set up, you'll just lose.
I do agree with the fact that you have LIMITED timings, when you can actually make a full out attack, and if it's not possible, like I stated before, defense until you got the right composition is probably the best option.
Ex. If you win an engagement, and he's remaking Ultralisks, it's the perfect timing to destroy one of his expansions, and then back to defense. I think with an Ultralisk base, if you're stuck on 3 bases, you probably won't be able to do more than 1-2 pushes because of the gas.
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Like some posters said, some +1 timing can outright deny his third forever or just kill him. There is not only 1 way to secure your third. There are builds that involve faster +1 and secure your third while using your army to pressure. Even with your 'standard' fast third timing, there are times when you can just go kill his third by pumping roaches reactively if he is greedy with his third timing.
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If it's unbeatable plz post a guide with timings ^^
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On June 14 2012 18:05 DemoraliZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 17:30 blade55555 wrote:
tbh quiet enjoying this style of ling/infestor into ultra zvz. Don't know the best way to fight 5/3 ultra's and hard to engage him before ultra's pop due to infestors stopping you if he fungels right. I'm having trouble surviving 2 base roach in the mid game before my infestors are out with this style.
Will with the build you have to have spines or get roaches. I have been going spine crawler route with ling/infestor and you can hold. If you don't get spine crawlers and don't have infestors out it is very hard to hold a 2 base roach push, it might even be impossible if the other zerg didn't mess up much and got a ton of them.
On June 15 2012 03:25 oZe wrote:
If it's unbeatable plz post a guide with timings ^^
I plan on posting a guide on it soon, just want to have as much practice with it to know I have it figured out before posting a guide  . I have faced many things that I have died to then vs the same person same strategy defended, so working out a lot of the kinks in the build.
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I'm having trouble surviving 2 base roach in the mid game before my infestors are out with this style.
moar spinz
noob question, has anyone considered opening 15 gaz 15 pool and get the speed really fast (then hatch at 21, and 1rst evo at 21) for the lings/infestor to ultra style? I feel like it's better than hatch first as it really confuses the opponent. Im only a plat but it seemed to work very well against the masters with whom i played. I always manage to get a queen, a few drones killed or sneek into the main only to keep my lings delaying his harvesting for a minimum cost. When then he comes with baneling/lings or roaches iam already bunkered with one evo (the 21 evo is in my main), few spines and lots of 1/1 lings. I dunno, to me it sounds like a logical opening to go into a 1/1 lings before reaching the mid game. I might be missing something essential or putting myself at risk but give it a though, im curious to know what you brains think of this opening in the zvz ultras gameplay.
Against a good player you should not be able to do that. Evo at 21 is ridiculously fast too, that makes no sense. Banelings are better than upgrades lings for both defensive and offensive purposes in the early game.
Like some posters said, some +1 timing can outright deny his third forever or just kill him. There is not only 1 way to secure your third. There are builds that involve faster +1 and secure your third while using your army to pressure. Even with your 'standard' fast third timing, there are times when you can just go kill his third by pumping roaches reactively if he is greedy with his third timing.
People fail to understand - when infestors pop, you cannot deny the third against mass ling/infestor/spines, no matter how many roaches you have from 3 base (if it's 2 base, well, you are better off with the higher tech).
There's a huge problem with fighting against this style - it's that it's literally a ticking time-bomb. Yes, you may deny the third for a long time with mass roach, but eventually, they WILL get their third up with enough infestors, which means they can then get their hive and ultras and you can't beat ultra/infestor with anything but ultra/infestor. It's a ticking time bomb.
Secondly, infestor/ling/spine is extremely strong against roaches. There is no way you are going to bust that with roaches.
If it's unbeatable plz post a guide with timings ^^
2 base lair infestor, macro hatch (~35 2nd gas, 3rd and 4th gas in 40s and double evo, 1/1 and lair, macro hatch in 50's, a couple spines if the opponent is doing 2 base roach all-in, a couple queens or spores if he's going quick muta, get 2/2 and tons of lings after saturating 2 base and make infestors, take third when infestors pop and make about 5 spines if opponent is making a roach based army, when your third is up make hive, ultra, 3/3, gg).
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EPT
