[D/H]Ultras in ZvZ

[D/H]Ultras in ZvZ - Page 5

blade55555

United States17423 Posts

June 21 2012 18:06 GMT

#81

On June 22 2012 02:19 Belial88 wrote:
do you get banes off of this? i never get banes. i mean in early game i get a few banes but not like speed banes.

Nah, only in early game (or mid if he tries roach/speedbane). I will add speed bane to my composition if he goes roach/hydra though, but if just roach/infestor nope.

Belial88

United States5217 Posts

June 24 2012 05:12 GMT

#82

That's not to say you don't contribute, you do that more than most posters. But it would be nice to not see you reply in the zerg help me thread with: "Sigh, does no one read my guides?!?! *linklink*, seriously stop asking dumb questions."
A bit of an exaggeration but you get the point.

I've literally written out the answer for "How do I deal with drops in ZvT?" 10 times in that thread. It's gotten to the point, where I've answered every question that comes up, already, 10 times before, in that exact thread, as well as elsewhere. It's bad enough people don't even bother searching, or even searching the thread they are posting in, but the point of those guides would be so people wouldn't have to keep flooding those questions anymore.

And I get it - most of those people are new, TL doesn't exactly have the most intuitive search engine (content, content+title? im still lost on all that).

But come on.

So I don't know what your problem is with such replies - shouldn't you be more bothered people don't search at all? I mean really, my guides give the answer on "How do i deal with drops in ZvT?" in an entire section, bolded. I could just not answer them at all, but I think being helpful is better than... not being helpful, i guess.

I've been playing around with this style alot and the only thing that really kills me is a better player playing the same style, or some kind of roach/bane timing off of 2 base as I'm taking my third (maybe I shouldnt take one before the roach player ever).
These hit just before infestors pop out and I only really hold it if I get some lucky banes on his off, otherwise my lings just get destroyed. I guess with better scouting I can go from 6 spines (since I wanna transfer em to third that I now cancel) to 10 or so? Hard to scout though, maybe put less emphasis on his buildings and more his army size/drone count.

When I see someone doing the same thing, ie 2 evos and 2 base lair/gassing up, I take a third and just proceed as normal.

As for roach/bane timing off 2 base... I don't know what that is, I've never heard of that. Why would you go roach/bane when you could just make another roach. Defensive banes own offensive banes. A roach/bane all-in is just later, or weaker, than a roach/ling all-in.

You should not be proceeding as normal, you should realize the opponent is doing a 2 base hatch tech all-in, and respond appropriately - mass up spines on 2 base, and win with a huge econ advantage with double the drone count. You could go infestors still, or even mass speed roach, but I like mutas to close the game. But whatever. Doesn't matter. You are just having problems with an early game all-in, and you should just make more spines and more units, basically.

Roach/ling all-in autowins if you take a fast third. Since you aren't going fast third with 2 base lair play like infestors (or mutas), this build is basically a blind counter to roach/ling all-in. If you macro well and are pumping out drones, you should be able to place enough reactive spines to hold easily. It's quite obvious to see a roach/ling (or roach/bane) all-in - his mineral line looks empty when you observe it with the overlord you ALWAYS place by their mineral line in ZvZ, he hasn't taken additional gas at his natural nor a third by 50 supply (so no fast third, no lair), he made roaches before taking a third, you sac an overlord into his main (if you watch GSL, about half of all pro zergs do this, at least, that's picked up by the observer) and clearly see no evo, no extra gases besides just 1, roaches coming out or larva being stockpiled, ie no production of drones...

it's like a toss 4 gating. You don't continue with the 'stephano style fast third roach max' against someone who is 4 gating. No, you own the 4 gate, ezpz, close out the game.

I actually don't see how you can win against this style with your 3rd hatch before lair style Belial, maybe with perfect roach spread and you can take a 4th? Seems rough.

Well that's the thing...

You don't take a third when the opponent is clearly doing a roach/ling all-in. It's an autowin against it, but it's quite easy to scout a roach/ling all-in. Really, think of it like this - 4 gate is autowin against a zerg taking a fast third, but a 4 gate is super easy to detect, so you don't take the fast third when someone looks to be 4 gating. There's a reason no one 4 gates in the GSL, and likewise, no one does roach/ling (or roachbane) all-ins in ZvZ at the pro level either.

Also, you shouldn't be playing standard fast third before lair with this. You are specifically doing a 2 base lair build.

Hence, why this build is so OP - you are clearly cutting economy so you can rush tech, and even if someone is playing standard fast third before lair, they will still have a hard time even when they know exactly what you are doing. It's quite stupid, really, which is why I've started doing this build myself, because it's so goddamn OP imo (if you can't beat them, join them).

And it's not 'my' fast third before lair style, it's the standard (or was, slowly dying out to this new style of play) of ZvZ - everyone goes fast third before lair in ZvZ (unless they go mutas or 2 base infestor or all-ins).

Adrenal6land

United States46 Posts

June 24 2012 08:41 GMT

#83

you lost that second game before the Ultras were even out. you are VERY vulnarable to mass ling styles because you have no walls anywhere, i think you had only 1 spine, and you made hydras which are very slow.

Banes are good and you had an advantage for most of the game. but the longer the game went on the more your defense broke down.

try to stay away from hydras, they are slow and take so much damage from fungals. also, if you would have attacked his natural there was only 1 spine there. all the spines were at the third. once you figure out whats wrong with your early/mid game you can worry about the ultras later.

Prev 1 2 3 4 5 All

Please or register to reply.

[D/H]Ultras in ZvZ - Page 5

Completed

Ongoing

Upcoming