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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 08 2012 15:11 LgNKane wrote: if he takes an undefended fourth thats fine, but its a badddd idea to attack with roach/infestor into infestor/spine unless you get a good position. Hit waaaaay before max. By the time you're maxed he'll have 8 infestors with full energy which when coupled with spines basically kills infinity roaches. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
So I was thinking okay, maybe the way to play against this is assume it's muta right, because it looks the same, 2 base lair 4 gas no roaches. And so you 'respond' to the mutas with infestors. Oops, its not mutas, its infestor/ling. But that isn't really working for me either. The infestor tech time makes it so when i max out on 2/2 roach/infestor, they have ultras out. I can't beat this style at all. I play so many people where I'm just so far ahead in the early and mid-game, and then they get the ultras and I lose. Maybe I'm not kiting well, maybe my micro is bad, I don't get it. I can even deny their fourth but once they get ultras its just impossible to deal with, because there's no tech I can use against it. With IT spam, they back off (and they have more infestors anyways). Roaches are okay, but won't work when he's on 3/5 ultras with infestor/ling support. I just hate losing games where I'm ahead, and I know I'm ahead, but I can't solidy that lead into a win. The majority of my ZvZs tend to go to 4+ bases, so this is really causing me a lot of losses. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 12 2012 06:25 chebhe wrote: Drop their main. That is how you beat a huge number of spines. If you think that's gimicky it's no surprise why you're losing. It's gimicky because it's not just spines, it's also infestors. A one liner is not going to solve this problem. This style seems to be the trend in zvz lately and I'm having trouble with it as well lategame. For me I have a built in roach timing off of 3 bases that kills this style outright. If you really want to have a 30 min zvz against this style I can only imagine sim-citying against ultras with spines with small gaps, and then teching to broodlords? Not quite sure. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
You have your roach infestor timing. Drop the main, and now you dont have to deal with spines. Seem like a good thing? | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 12 2012 06:40 chebhe wrote: You have your roach infestor timing. Drop the main, and now you dont have to deal with spines. Seem like a good thing? Except for the fact that in relies on your opponent being awful and not seeing a giant doomdrop coming. Infestors stop those dead in their tracks. edit: small drops gets cleaned up by lings. | ||
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Ryze
Canada234 Posts
when i play against koreans in zvz normally the point they max out with the roach infestor and sometimes hydra comp is between the 14-15 minute mark and this is normally when you'd want to hit your timing, that NASL vod with catz vs idra is a good example of how you can engage before the ultras as well. another thing to not is that he is getting away with quite alot in that game only making 3 mutaslisks and only have 1 spine and no defensive banelings at all, while you were morphing lots of defensive banelings which also slightly delayed your own lair timing. you should be trying to be as agressive as you can with speedlings early on seeing that his lair is that much faster than your and delaying roaches as much as possible. and i just want to say again that he only made 3 mutalisks and you made 3 spores at your 3rd and 2 in each base. if you can pressure him before his tech really comes into play this allows you to delay your own spores and tech faster yourself. in short I think you were just already behind by the time it got to the midgame and there wasnt much you could do by then because of how much greed he got away with. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Maybe i should stop playing 3 base and start going 2 base? | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 12 2012 11:23 zmansman17 wrote: Under what circumstances would someone go Ultra in ZvZ? I can see it if you're already way ahead, but beyond that not really. Ling with fast upgrades into infestor, super defensive with counter attacks > fast hive 3-5 upgraded ultras are amazing. Half of my late game zvz's end up with my opponent doing this nowadays. | ||
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mYiKane
Canada1772 Posts
On June 08 2012 17:45 Vanadiel wrote: Ling Infest (with sometimes a little bit of roach as in ZvT) into Ultra is actually a build that Stephano is practising right now, he did that against Violet at RedBul Lan and a lot on his stream where he played a lot against a lllllllll acount which was Scarlet apparently. I don't know if he will stick with it as his standard ZvZ but he was doing very well with it. I'm not sure there is an obvious weakpoint that you can exploit, I'll said you're gonna need some defensive banneling at your third and fourth base and force him to make a lot of spine and to stay on 3 base. Then it's all depending on your unit control and good engagment, you should always fight on choke point if you can. I don't feel right now that this style is better or worse thant roach/Hydra/Infestor, but it is somehow new so it's harder to play against right now. The account you are referring to was actually idra | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
On June 12 2012 06:45 Clarity_nl wrote: Except for the fact that in relies on your opponent being awful and not seeing a giant doomdrop coming. Infestors stop those dead in their tracks. edit: small drops gets cleaned up by lings. drop some infestors in there and it will be much more difficult to clean up. If you are doing a doom drop, there are ways to avoid being scouted. I don't think it's so easy to stop. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 12 2012 13:08 chebhe wrote: drop some infestors in there and it will be much more difficult to clean up. If you are doing a doom drop, there are ways to avoid being scouted. I don't think it's so easy to stop. What ways. You come in posting one liners that add nothing to the discussion. Here is my suggestion to solve all your problems belial: nydus. If you think nydus is gimmicky it's not wonder you're so awful. (obvious sarcasm) | ||
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FuriousEgg
Argentina20 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 12 2012 21:13 FuriousEgg wrote: Your response should be 2/2 Roaches with nydus and multi pronged attacks. 2/2 Roaches will always 2 shot lings and are pretty hard to kill. You can do this pretty fast on 2 base while not risking to take a 3rd with all those ling runbys The OP is asking specifically about his replays. He has also mentioned several times he would like to stick with his fast third playstyle. | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
On June 12 2012 21:13 FuriousEgg wrote: Your response should be 2/2 Roaches with nydus and multi pronged attacks. 2/2 Roaches will always 2 shot lings and are pretty hard to kill. You can do this pretty fast on 2 base while not risking to take a 3rd with all those ling runbys da heck? 2/2 nydus "fast" off 2 base?? i think unit sim city actually helps a lot, wedging 4roaches and queen between mineral line, and use hold position with drones around your units. meawhile your roaches attack front line, newly spawned roaches should be capable of cleaning up mas ligns | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
You can simply swap into the timing push reactionary depending on when your opponent takes his two gas. If he doesn't, don't make the lair and take a third off of +1 slow roaches. If he does, get lair and go with a massive roach push at 10-11. Thats the easiest way I found to deal with mass ling styles. | ||
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