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On May 30 2013 01:43 CursedFeanor wrote:
I believe the merits of proposed modifications should be based on their actual intrinsic value rather than on judging the person who makes the suggestion. Who cares if the guy has been using The Core for a day or a year? This doesn't make the proposition any less (or more) interesting.
The thing is, I find none of his suggestions interesting. I didn't stop reading after he said how long he has been using TheCore or anything.
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On one hand it's true that intuitions, while useful, are often wrong. On the other hand, with something as personal as a hotkey setup it's silly to simply hand-wave them away. After all, the most efficient and usable hotkey layout is one that is intuitive. I think in most cases it's perfectly acceptable to sacrifice theoretical (minute) gains in exchange for a setup that feels better.
I think the point that's often missed is that the more difficult and arbitrary the layout, the more likely you'll make mistakes while playing it, which is a big no. Just make sure that you're not avoiding making difficult changes because they're painful.
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There are 2 things that I think TheCore project could make great use of:
1) TheCore Lite - more standard approach with hand on the proper side of the keyboard (i.e. updated Chameleon)
2) (Script) Customizable home row keys
Changing home keys is a matter of convenience/what feels more natural to the user. Whereas the lack of (official) solution for players who do not like hand placement switch is severely limiting the popularity of TheCore. Its feels like a terribly wasted potential.
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On May 30 2013 05:18 Czarnodziej wrote:
There are 2 things that I think TheCore project could make great use of:
1) TheCore Lite - more standard approach with hand on the proper side of the keyboard (i.e. updated Chameleon)
2) (Script) Customizable home row keys
Changing home keys is a matter of convenience/what feels more natural to the user. Whereas the lack of (official) solution for players who do not like hand placement switch is severely limiting the popularity of TheCore. Its feels like a terribly wasted potential.
Hand placement seems pretty integral to The Core. Wouldn't you have to sacrifice the thumb's utility? At this point, I have a hard time wrapping my head around a version of The Core that doesn't use the thumb for 5 different things.
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On May 30 2013 03:53 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:
On one hand it's true that intuitions, while useful, are often wrong. On the other hand, with something as personal as a hotkey setup it's silly to simply hand-wave them away. After all, the most efficient and usable hotkey layout is one that is intuitive. I think in most cases it's perfectly acceptable to sacrifice theoretical (minute) gains in exchange for a setup that feels better.
I think the point that's often missed is that the more difficult and arbitrary the layout, the more likely you'll make mistakes while playing it, which is a big no. Just make sure that you're not avoiding making difficult changes because they're painful.
I'm not sure what you mean by an "intuitive layout" being efficient. I would say that it's intuitive for Patrol to be on P and Attack to be on A and Drone to be on D and SCV to be on S and have control groups on 0 through 9. However, to me this seems a terribly inefficient use of keyboard space and hand movements.
I would say that having control groups on 9 0 - = p shift+p [ l ; ' is very unintuitive and difficult to learn, but I would call this far more efficient. When I first started playing with that, I made a ton of mistakes and it felt so clumsy. But once you've learned this unintuitive layout, you are not more likely to make mistakes than you would be using 0-9.
When someone says "it's unintuitive to use different keys for burrow, unburrow, and uproot", I don't think that something like that should be relevant at all when designing a hotkey layout. Yes, someone switching to TheCore from Standard may make mistakes in the short term because they are used to all of these different things being on one single key, but that does not mean that TheCore is inherently more likely to cause mistakes than Standard (in fact, I would argue that having these on different keys makes it less likely for people to make mistakes).
I don't think having an intuitive layout is worth sacrificing anything for. If I did, I would probably have stuck with Standard or Grid.
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On May 30 2013 05:49 Borskey wrote:
I don't think having an intuitive layout is worth sacrificing anything for. If I did, I would probably have stuck with Standard or Grid.
Standard is the opposite of intuitive...
Even TheCore is more intuitive by your definition. The control groups are all keys hit by the index and middle fingers and the commands are all keys hit by the pinky and ring fingers. The most used spell for each unit is on I with a few exceptions. There's nothing like that in Standard, besides control groups being on numbers.
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(I play terran and use US QWERTY TRM 0.7)
So the one place I deviate from The Core is on the suggested control groups for units. Specifically I choose certain CGs based on ability key. My big 3 CGs that I want to discuss are:
Army: Everything that isnt harassing, scouting, watching expansions, holding towers, etc.
"Infantry": Infantry that you'll typically kite with or act as meatshields. e.g. MM and/or hellbat
"Support": Critical units with 'I' as the main ability (in their relevant matchups), e.g. Tanks or Mines or Ghosts
Rationale / Pros:
1) Since the support control group is used almost every game, speed and accuracy with the "support" control group becomes stronger for critical, core units. With 3 separate CGs for mines, tanks, and ghosts, it is likely that only 1 gets used in a game.
2) The fastest CG key is shared by core units rather than some core units being mapped to slower keys. E.g. 9, L, and ; have a score of 1.0 while the other unit CGs scores are higher.
Cons:
1) Certain CGs are used less often and therefore speed and accuracy suffers for them. This may be especially important in the late game where several CGs are needed.
2) The assumption that only 1 of the 3 supporting units appears in a game assumes that the current metagame does not change in that respect.
3) When >1 supporting units appear in a game, the secondary one goes to a less-used CG which may be less proficient.
In the context of matchup and build:
TvP, MMMVG: The cons are arguably not an issue outside of a metagame shift after 3 years of stability.
TvT, *: It seems that tanks will be with your main force, while ghost or mines would probably be on harass hotkeys. However, I'm not familiar enough with mech to know if you'd use mines with your main force.
TvZ: This is potentially the most problematic. Can see periods where you have both tanks and mines. Also, I keep feeling like ghost use should be experimented with more for infestors.
Final thoughts:
Ultimately, it seems to be a tradeoff between greater proficiency controlling core units, vs. less proficiency with high #s of control groups (late game) and a sensitivity/fragility to changes in the metagame. In practice, I haven't seen the downsides in my play, but it could happen when I progress past platinum.
Does anyone have opinions / critiques / suggestions? I'm especially interested in Terran perspectives on this.
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On May 30 2013 07:01 Smackzilla wrote:
Does anyone have opinions / critiques / suggestions?
Unless I missed something, you haven't actually said what keys you put those three groups on and what you do with your other control groups.
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On May 30 2013 08:12 Borskey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 07:01 Smackzilla wrote:
Does anyone have opinions / critiques / suggestions? Unless I missed something, you haven't actually said what keys you put those three groups on and what you do with your other control groups.
To clarify, here's some examples:
+ Show Spoiler +
Note, with the current recommendations, in TvZ with 4M two of your best CGs go unused.
Here's what I do now. I'm pretty happy with the first 5, but not entirely sure about the rest:
; is army
L is MM
9 is primary support (ghost, tank, mine)
0 is viking
[ is primary harass
- is raven
= is battle cruiser
. is secondary support (ghost tank mine)
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On May 30 2013 08:28 Smackzilla wrote:
Note, with the current recommendations, in TvZ with 4M two of your best CGs go unused.
Here's what I do now. I'm pretty happy with the first 5, but not entirely sure about the rest:
; is army
L is MM
9 is primary support (ghost, tank, mine)
0 is viking
[ is primary harass
- is raven
= is battle cruiser
. is secondary support (ghost tank mine)
I get what you are saying and I agree. I'm still building muscle memory for using a couple of the close CG keys much less the far ones, so what I am aiming for right now is just use fewer CG and use them well (with the idea of working up to more later). So for now I've been going:
9 (infantry) MMM or hellbats
0 (primary support) tanks or mines or vikings
- (secondary support) ghost or mines
[ harass / drops
I waver between having a full army hotkey (on ; ) and just using the select all army hotkey. I think I'm still a little too reliant on select all army but find myself using it especially when I'm ahead and just need to really everything to finish the game or in panic defense mode and need everything at my base. Probably building bad habits with that though.
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Quick question. Ninjury is in Platinum and Antylamon is in Diamond and that hasn't changed after switching to theCore am I correct?
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On May 30 2013 17:16 Bulgogi wrote:
Quick question. Ninjury is in Platinum and Antylamon is in Diamond and that hasn't changed after switching to theCore am I correct?
I was Platinum, now I'm closing in on Masters. (I made it to Diamond with only Marines)
And Sandbox is a progamer.
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Will it be possible for a coreGrid? I think it might be something worth looking into. Might make learning it a bit easier with the lack of the highly refined layout. Just an idea x]
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On May 30 2013 12:57 teuthida wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 08:28 Smackzilla wrote:
Note, with the current recommendations, in TvZ with 4M two of your best CGs go unused.
Here's what I do now. I'm pretty happy with the first 5, but not entirely sure about the rest:
; is army
L is MM
9 is primary support (ghost, tank, mine)
0 is viking
[ is primary harass
- is raven
= is battle cruiser
. is secondary support (ghost tank mine) I get what you are saying and I agree. I'm still building muscle memory for using a couple of the close CG keys much less the far ones, so what I am aiming for right now is just use fewer CG and use them well (with the idea of working up to more later). So for now I've been going: 9 (infantry) MMM or hellbats 0 (primary support) tanks or mines or vikings - (secondary support) ghost or mines [ harass / drops I waver between having a full army hotkey (on ; ) and just using the select all army hotkey. I think I'm still a little too reliant on select all army but find myself using it especially when I'm ahead and just need to really everything to finish the game or in panic defense mode and need everything at my base. Probably building bad habits with that though.
I've decided to avoid the select all button. It disrupts drops, scouts, defenders, and anything else you don't want with your main force. Grabbing reinforcements at your rally point and adding them to your army CG can become very quick with the use of a free camera.
BTW, do you ever have a problem with tanks and vikings on the same CG in TvT? My instinct is that they may need to be independent. Also, I leave medivacs out of the infantry group so they can heal while I kite (another reason for the army CG is to hold my medivacs).
The other thing I'll add is that even when using several CGs, I'm not sure that the suggestions The Core makes are best for terran. The suggested CGs put critical units on less optimal keys and leave 1 - 2 of the best keys unused in a typical game.
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I'M BACK!!!
...and it's good to be back. That was an epic and long read but I wrote everything down so I could respond. Before getting into specifics I want to thank you all for keeping things going while I was on vacation, this community is fucking stellar.
THINGS I WILL FIX ASAP: (let me know if I missed something)
Improving Merc Compound
Add to CG for Macro CG1 is alt (as described by ninjury)
Investigate roach problem?
Take another look at Suggested CGs (esp PT offrace for Zerg Layout)
Update Spreadsheet to match files
@Sixtus
I think we should move the merc compound to a "non-banished" key. I don't think it should take priority over anything else, but I think it's useful (I rebuilt it several times while going through WoL Campaign with TheCore for various reasons.)
@jabird
Chameleon is at the bottom of a long list of things I am working on right now. I could do nothing but work, eat, and sleep for a month and still wouldn't reach Chameleon. That being said, it is updated for HotS and is very easy to customize. It will only ever have 1 version (unless something crazy happens). Multiple version support is exhausting and I don't have the energy/time to do it.
I think that's everything. I'll get it all updated asap and let you all know when the new files are on the skydrive 
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I'm in plat (tho I got demoted from top of plat last season). When I started TheCore I was bronze.
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On May 31 2013 01:59 JaKaTaK wrote:
Investigate roach problem?
We have a roach problem?
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On May 31 2013 01:59 JaKaTaK wrote:
Add to CG for Macro CG1 is alt (as described by ninjury)
Wait a sec... we could rebind Ctrl+P/W as next subgroup! :D
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@feng
Someone reported a possible misbind from left to right. K instead of F for some reason.
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I am struggling a lot with the key for the ultralisk. I am using ZRM and the key for ultralisk is "7". In general this is okay. But it becomes a pain in the ass when you want to add the ultralisks to your control group which is ";". Because I want to do it very fast my ring finger still is on "7". At the same time my thumb is on "ctrl" and my index is on ";". At least for me this is a really far stretch.
I would suggest putting create ultralisk to ".". I know that the key score of "." is 22 instead of 20 for "7", but this is just a little bit more. And the good thing would be that you don't have to do that huge stretch. For me it feels all in all more comfortable and even faster.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/n3hFImil.jpg)
