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On April 08 2013 00:47 Ninjury_J wrote:
@Borskey
I am getting used to going from ctrl to shift ctrl. Still, not optimal yet.
There is no suggested ov group because they are all taken up by units. There is a lot more I would love room for: Nydus, creep queens, drops, overlords, overseers, etc... What do you think we can or should change?
See my previous post. I think requiring fancy dancing of SHIFT and CTRL held isn't ergonomic (I've tested this and wrestled with it a lot).
As for CGs, I think each game is a little different, so these need to be somewhat flexible. For me, I like putting nydus on my inject queen CG, then tab to it. If I'm going for a drop, if it's harass, I put it on my harass CG, if it's a roach or baneling bomb, I use my roach or baneling CG. Overlords I don't put on CGs, but I think I will for the benefit of mass creep pooping with a single key press once I hit lair. Overseers I throw in with almost every CG, especially against terrains with widow mines. Creep queens I still can't decide if I want to dedicate a CG to them or use cameras (I'm actually leaning toward camera for creep itself, and hotkey for creep queens to branch multiple directions.
I like the idea of defining exact CGs, so your brain gets used to it, but there are problems, for example:
against mostly ground armies, putting roach and hydra in one CG works OK. But against banshees voidrays or mutas, attacking with roach hydra all in one CG spells doom for your roaches. So each matchup requires different use of the CGs, doesn't it?
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@ JDub,
As teuthida said, it was hard to remember the number of the CGs. It would be cool if either the suggested control groups were implemented in by default, or/and if they could be programmed by the users. So instead of saying "add to cg 5" it could say "add to ghost cg" or "select primary production" etc...
@Thayneq,
Concerning the mouse, I assume you are using M4 as the cam? After a recall, the next required action will be a click (clicking the tumours). So if the mouse is used to recall, you need to (accurately) click right after.
Second, don't you lose the ability to shift ctrl add the queens into the selection, thereby making your method not work? If so, then I don't see what the point of moving cams onto the mouse or B/G would be.
Edit: On CGs: I agree that they ought to be flexible, even as I argue for the rigidity of associating a key with a constant unit or group of units.... Not really sure what to do here. A different set of suggested cgs per match up may make sense, but that is highly related to the meta and therefore undesired. I firmly believe there must be some sort of optimal set up(s), but I have idea how to go about finding them out. The current suggested CGs for all races are the results of some tests Jak and I did by analyzing the units held during every time slice of GM level games. I'm not sure how to get any more scientific here. Do you have any ideas?
I agree that ctrl --> shift ctrl is no good. Was just saying its doable, but I don't think it is worth it.
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Trying to play with it I noticed that it was indeed not stable meaning a lot of things do not work as intended. I changed the hotkeys, so that they worked and created a new Terran 0.6.3 that works as intended with all the keys were they should be (at least for terran).
So together with the image:
http://postimg.org/image/qvblneul9/
I now have a workable solution for learning and eventually playing with TheCore on my German keyboard as a right handed mouse user with medium sized hands. All keys do what they are supposed to now.
If anybody wants to have a look at the hotkey file that I created for it to work on QWERTZ German keys...here it is:
http://www.file-upload.net/download-7439204/TheCore-TRM063German.SC2Hotkeys.html
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@Ninjury_J,
I think the idea of using Shift+Ctrl at all is a bad idea. It's just such an awkward combo for you thumb that I'd rather only do it if I have to. My current thinking on creep spread is to make it simple. adding your queen to the creep group is actually a bad idea after testing because you end up having to hit shift+ctrl, then a cancel, then a tab (M5). It's just easier to spread creep by ctrl clicking a tumor, holding creep button "I", spam clicking, then press M4 to reset camera. If you have a queen, then simply spread creep manually with her after all this.
As to your point about having it on the mouse button, yes you do require a click immediately after, which isn't ideal, but it's a lot easier than trying to use Y,G for cameras, and easier than using CTRL+SHIFT method. So what else is there?
To be completely honest, the way I'm *really* spreading creep violates the rules of blizzard, so I won't bother posting it, but it's very very similar to this. (not macros or anything cheesy like that, just a clever rebind).
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@thayneq,
I'd propose my original idea, where J and O are used with shift + Ctrl to reset and Ctrl to recall since in this method you can press the two together to reset without first commiting Ctrl. I don't think pressing the two together is awkward if it is done at the same time.
Now I am curious, what are you really doing and why is it a violation? Rebinding mouse click as scroll wheel?
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I'm doing:
set location 1 = Shift + Y, Ctrl+Shift+J (alternate)
set location 2 = Shift + G, Ctrl+Shift+O (alternate)
recall location 1 = Y, Ctrl+J (alternate)
recall location 2 = G, Ctrl+O (alternate).
also changed CG7 to:
add to CG7 = Ctrl + K
reset CG7 = Ctrl+Shift+K
recall CG7 = Shift+P
queen creep ability to "I"
creep tumor creep to "I".
then using auto-hotkey to rebind mouse scroll up to Y and mouse scroll down to G. (This is the part that isn't allowed). Though for me, since I'm never going to compete, I'm ok with this because it's not a macro in any way. Just adds two extra buttons to my mouse. The other use of the scroll wheel (that is cheating for sure) is to bind mouse scroll up to left click. Then mass infested terrans is insane ;-)
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Ah cool. I see how that can work nicely.
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I can't comment on the creep spread because I haven't had a chance to experiment with them extensively. I'm going to have to trust the judgement of the zerg players on the thread for this one until I get some time to practice it.
Regarding visuals, Ideally we'd have a 16x9 ratio cheat sheet that someone could put up as their desktop background or a second monitor while playing. It would include how to create, add, and recall CGs and camera keys; suggested CGs; and a keyboard image of where the CGs Abilities, and Cameras are. The important part is that the visuals need to be clear, and simple, with no extraneous information. It should only have the information not provided by the command card (such as what attack or build advanced is). If anyone is up for designing such a thing, let me know.
@TheRealKinetic
Your designs, while helpful, are too complex. The information in a graphic for TheCore should be able to be understood at a glance. I really appreciate the energy and ideas you're bringing into the project, keep em coming 
Concerning Alpha 1.0
We should be moving to beta soon. With the new workflow updates from JDub, we'll be able to make updates much faster, and even have SC1 Campaign hotkeys once that mod is stable. Thanks for your patience
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The following is an idea I got from listening to eneyeseekay's creep spread method. It involves using drag scroll to quickly zip to the creep location by utilizing the mini map.
I really like the idea. I don't like the need to press the mouse button or scroll wheel since the immediate succeeding action is a mouse click which must be accurate. I have an idea but I am not home to try it. If someone could, I would appreciate it. Please rebind period (x for left hand) as drag scroll. Let me know if:
A) this is even allowed by the game.
B) this is faster than using the middle mouse button as drag scroll.
C) this is faster than simply using the minimap.
D) this is faster than the camera method(s) we have been discussing.
Thanks so much!
Edit: better yet, if it is possible, please try rebinding drag scroll to ctrl + J. Keep holding ctrl to click the tumour, then press and hold I to spawn new tumours. (You will need to change camera 7 temporarily).
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A) You can rebind drag-scroll to any key, or CTRL+ Any Key. Adding CTRL makes it behave strangely (at least on my system), where it occasionally gets locked into the drag scroll and you have to tap the hotkeys again to unlock it. DO NOT LIKE. It doesn't do this when bound to a single key.
B-D) I don't think I could answer those without a little bit more practicing. But it certainly seems fast. I was just messing around and put Drag scroll on H, with Spread Creep on G. It was fast, satisfying and versatile to dart between three lanes.
I never used the freecam method, so take my opinion for what it's worth. But going between three lanes involved the following:
H+swoop with mouse
CTRL+left click tumor
Shift+G
click click click click
Repeatx2
It's about as efficient as you can get and it feels REALLY responsive once you get the drag scroll speed down. It's the method I think I'll change to even if The Core doesn't accommodate it. (I'll use different keys of course, these were just to test it out).
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The only problem it will probably have is when the creep gets extremely spread out on big maps - clicking the minimap will likely become more efficient, because your mouse won't have to swoop across the entire mousepad to get back and forth. But early-mid game multilane spreading is really the efficiency killer anyway.
I like the drag scroll a lot.
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@rebelsaint,
Thanks for testing it out. I think late game the mini map method also gets slow because you need to keep clicking from mini map to the main screen over and over again. I suspect drag scroll would be faster.
I'm glad this works with ctrl as well as with single bind keys. I need to test it out myself to see what the problem is with ctrl. If this doesn't work, then we have . and x to work with, since in ZXM they are currently unbound.
Did you compare it to drag scroll on the wheel?
Edit: instead of pressing shift, why not hold down the tumour hotkey?
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I did not compare it to the wheel drag scroll, because I just assumed that would regarded as inefficient to click back and forth with the same finger.
Regarding your edit question: I tried holding the tumor hotkey down, but this results in me having to hit cancel or right click every time I switch lanes. The tumor silhouette goes away as soon as I release Shift, which seemed easier. I may be missing an easier approach, but I really just wanted to confirm for you that it does work so you can get to brainstorming how you'd like to test it. I didn't have a lot of time to play with it. It feels good though.
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I think it would be inefficient in comparison as well when compared to a key like G or J. Compared to X and . I am not sure and need to see, though I still suspect it is both faster and more accurate.
Though this is pure speculation, It's possible that one need not cancel when holding down the key, since one can just drag scroll again to get to the next location. If not, then we need to see if the extra use of shift is faster than the right click/ cancel.
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Drag-scrolling unfortunately does not cancel the tumor silhouette. It has to be canceled manually.
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I don't understand why drag scroll would be faster. It seems like it'd be a lot slower than just clicking on the minimap. As for shift vs holding the key down, I think that holding the key down is best if you're creep spreading normally.
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I saw Demuslim talk about how he likes the "select whole army key"
http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/387985909?t=69m54s
If the timestamp doesn't work, skip to about 1 hour 9 minutes 50 seconds.
I definitely think it's something that should be incorporated for Terran (though less so for Zerg).
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oh my god I have played so much SC2 the past two days I think my brain is going to explode.
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hi guys
and thank you for all the great work on the core. I'm using it since 0.5 and although I really have not so much time to play starcraft (2 jobs & university) I really appreciate its efficent way. And I really didn't need 50+ games to be comfortable with it. more like 10-20. maybe because I started to work with it while I was still in bronze...
anyway, I just wanted to ask about some recent changes on the 1.0a. especially the switch from K as ability to H on (TRM). While before it was I/K to siege/unsiege tanks,wm, or cloak units, which was great, because it was the use of the same finger, not it is this akward H button which I never seem to hit fast enough. So in my Layout I switched it back, but it was kind of painful because of the reactor/techlab which is build on H and tanks on K which was also now Hold position for the flying factore and all other units I had to do a roundabout to switch 3 different keys and also bring in some new one (Y on US) for Stop. As I write this it seems to be confusing to read, but it was way more confusing to do it in the hotkeys manager.
So TLDR is there any thing to get gained by replacing I/K ability switch with I/H? because if not, I would think, that maybe it would be better to leave it that way. just IMHO and my 2 cents!
cheers,
joe
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On April 08 2013 14:59 Borskey wrote:I saw Demuslim talk about how he likes the "select whole army key" http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/387985909?t=69m54sIf the timestamp doesn't work, skip to about 1 hour 9 minutes 50 seconds. I definitely think it's something that should be incorporated for Terran (though less so for Zerg).
Agreed. If there's one modification I'll absolutely need to do while using the Core, it's this one.
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EPT
