EPTDoes that sound like a waste of time to everyone? Personally I have what I need, but it could be made much more useful to a lot of people with the above additions. Is that a good idea?
[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 174
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TheRealKinetic
Germany10 Posts
Does that sound like a waste of time to everyone? Personally I have what I need, but it could be made much more useful to a lot of people with the above additions. Is that a good idea? | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
If you are up to the task, I'm sure there would be people who would benefit greatly from it. That said, there is one major thing to consider: TheCore, even at Alpha 1.0, is still quite unstable. It's possible that your diagrams will have to be changed in major ways at some point in the near future if you make them now. As the creator of the existing help images linked in the OP, I know it can take a LONG time to make all the appropriate versions, as it took me a couple hours just to make the really really simple ones that are there now. Once TheCore stabilizes a bit, I will most likely update all of those images to make sure they are fully up-to-date (right now there are a few disparities). I would recommend that you also hold off on doing the work for all three setups, races, etc. until TheCore has stabilized, otherwise your hard work will become obsolete. | ||
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TheRealKinetic
Germany10 Posts
On April 07 2013 13:10 JDub wrote: @TheRealKinetic If you are up to the task, I'm sure there would be people who would benefit greatly from it. That said, there is one major thing to consider: TheCore, even at Alpha 1.0, is still quite unstable. It's possible that your diagrams will have to be changed in major ways at some point in the near future if you make them now. As the creator of the existing help images linked in the OP, I know it can take a LONG time to make all the appropriate versions, as it took me a couple hours just to make the really really simple ones that are there now. Once TheCore stabilizes a bit, I will most likely update all of those images to make sure they are fully up-to-date (right now there are a few disparities). I would recommend that you also hold off on doing the work for all three setups, races, etc. until TheCore has stabilized, otherwise your hard work will become obsolete. Yeah it took me about 6 hours to make the 2 I have now. There are left/right T/P/Z small/medium/large us/qwertz/etc. It is going to be a lot of work indeed. So it's not stable yet. Good point. Then I will definitely wait before embarking on that journey. Thanks mate | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
What would your ideal hotkey trainer look like? What was done well in the Hotkey Trainer linked in the OP? What could have been done better? I can't promise anything, but if I can come up with a solid design and am convinced it would be worthwhile/useful, I'm game to make it. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
That is really cool. If we can figure out a way to deal with it modify the ctrl to shift Ctrl awkwardness the method will be great! | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On April 07 2013 12:01 Ninjury_J wrote: Cool. If you had all your queens on one group (in other words, two extra CGs,) what do you think you would add? Possibly a dedicated viper group, maybe I'd hotkey drop defense/counter attack squads. I don't think the trade-off is worth it, personally. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On April 07 2013 14:20 Ninjury_J wrote: Hm, I'm not sure I understand the argument for queens in multiple control groups. To me it seems like you lose 2 control groups, and need to press more buttons to inject. Other than preventing the queens running around, what are the other advantages? You can always tab back to your queens if they're away from your hatchery, you have better queen control in general and more control over your injections. I've also noticed that when watching players use the backspace method, there's a huge gap between the speed that's theoretically possible vs how fast they actually inject. Usually if the inject timer is about to expire they have to run through their inject a few times to be sure that every hatch injected, plus there's the issue with queens running around that you mentioned. In the end, it's not a huge difference either way. | ||
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FutureTrash
United States12 Posts
You (or whoever) might want to consider making a Processing script that would sync with the hotkey files. The United States presidential election map on the wikipedia page might be an example of how this could work. | ||
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PZ31k0nauT
13 Posts
Regarding Hot Virtual Keyboard. Now I realized that it´s a shareware testversion lasting 30 days. I don´t know which functions will be available when the testperiod ends. I still want to custumize the Virtual Keyboard only showing keys relevant to TheCore (colored and so on). I really think not only would it be cool for tutorials but also for analyzing how I use TheCore (recording VODs and watch them). I hope that the basic functions still are available after 30 days. | ||
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Borskey
160 Posts
On April 07 2013 14:02 Ninjury_J wrote: @thayneq, That is really cool. If we can figure out a way to deal with it modify the ctrl to shift Ctrl awkwardness the method will be great! Maybe it just takes a little getting used to. It's not hard for me to hit ctrl and then add shift (and then let go of shift). | ||
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Borskey
160 Posts
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Clagus
4 Posts
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ReTLoM
Germany3 Posts
 im using 1.0 | ||
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TheRealKinetic
Germany10 Posts
On April 07 2013 13:16 JDub wrote: Seeing how the desktop app Hotkey Trainer has been abandoned, I am considering trying to make a new one. Before that happens, I'd like some input on how it should work! What would your ideal hotkey trainer look like? What was done well in the Hotkey Trainer linked in the OP? What could have been done better? I can't promise anything, but if I can come up with a solid design and am convinced it would be worthwhile/useful, I'm game to make it. The original was really good. You could set the time you had to give an answer, set your race and practice a lot of things in a fairly short amount of time. It perfectly read key binding files you fed to it (copy paste from SC2 folder), but fell short with providing a useable version for different types of keyboards, therefore being pretty us centric. Maybe it lacked the inclusion of the variables you could set in the config.ini into the frontend for ease of use, but the config.ini was well commented. The ideal one for me would be a mini game within SC2 like YABOT, which would primpt the user for type of keyboard and then simpy read the mapping from inside SCII. That would eliminate having to copy things. Whichever bindings and layout are active should be the combination that gets trained. The biggest practice issue for me is that I beat the computer on hard and usually on very hard (almost exclusively using the mouse safe or building gas, barracks, depots, muling and making marines), but then using "theCore" I really can't learn it and still be competitive with that level and as a result I tend to still try to win over trying to use "theCore" correctly. This makes learning "theCore" incredibly slow, when it should be simple, as I have no muscle memory for almost all actions you can perform. So I feel there should be a solution other than custom games on easy and such that is really geared towards getting the best out of this hotkey setup QUICKLY. Here is how I would envision the hotkey trainer to work. At the start you enter your difficulty setting and how much time you want it to pass in seconds between each task and then you start the game. It would include a visual of the part of the keyboard that's used where the minimap is and dots in the corresponding colors would flash up on the keys with the answer in plain text on the screen. That way you' hav two visuals reinforcing what to press. It would become easier to see the answer and then hit the right keys even without looking back at the keyboard. For some reason I do look, when I see the answer in the original trainer, even though I type fine without looking at the keys. The trainer would have different difficulty settings and would always run a set number of tasks. 100 different tasks with each run would be nice. At the beginner level that would mean things like: 1. select idle worker 2. build hatchery 3. add to control group 2 (suggested use) ... So that would be almost exactly like the original and would help one memorize keys. The big difference would be that the game would actually load those "scenarios" and have you execute them in the actual game. At the end the game would display average response time and how many answer you got correct. Once you hit a solid level (whatever that may be, you guys probably have that kind of data) the game tells you to move up to medium. Then medium level would organize actions to mimic the actual game play in SC2. For example: 1. Set CC to control group and start making workers (group 6) 2. Set the Camera for the main (camera 1) 3. Set your Rally cam (camera 7) 4. Set Camera for your Natural (camera 2) 5. etc. If you could include build orders, which could be selected at the beginning (what to build at what supply) at this stage you would have already made the perfect Starcraft 2 macro and mechanics trainer. I think medium should still tell you your average response time, but should also grade you on how many goals you hit and how many actions were successully performed with the hotkeys. I think 100 tasks should get you pretty far into the game, but I'm not sure. Again you guys would probably know. If it is only possible to learn like this by slowing the game down, then it would be wise to do that. Once you get 100% on the build order and a suitable average response time to move up, the game should move to the next speed for hard and finally full speed for very hard. Then ultra hard would take it to another level and would do the same as beore, but it would throw in things to keep you busy, like prompt you to check your production, spread creep and whatever else you may be able to benefit from getting in the habit of doing. You have the data for so many pros might as well use it. That way you could learn to play like the really good people that have a few thousand games to their name in a much shorter amount of time. At the end you get graded on mechanical performance and build order execution. Then lastly would be freestyle, where you get hit with a bunch of typical combos that TheGrid was envisioned and designed to speed up like three pronged harass, creep spread while injecting, setting MMM into group 2 and again tanks seperately, then sieging /unsieging, loading and unloading MM to medivacs to rescue from force fields and moving your army and all other such actions one could think off. Now that would be the ideal BO and mechanics trainer for SC2 and would show why TheGrid is superior to people fairly quickly. If you made the beginner level available for normal keys and normal grid as well it would quickly gain a lot of fans and make a bunch of people wonder how to unlock the BO trainer and higher levels. Of course you could tell them about "theCore" and remind them to get and install after they finish their game, when they get their score: You want to eventually get higher scores? You want to move up the ladder? You want to test buildorders and see your APM and average response times? You want to be organized in the most efficient way? Then you need a special hotkey setup, born from science, made to improve your game! Meet "TheCore" -> link to youtube video introduction By the way, you guys need a youtube video up that runs one through the process on a typical WIN7 system. Get it here, put it there, get the spreadsheet, get the visual helpers, watch the video about the spreadsheet, see the videos that explain the beginnings. Watch the acadamey VODs on twitch and then like the youtube channel, follow it and click more info on this video to see all these locations. People are so fucking lazy these days, that they want to be shown step by step what to do. Now that's a shitton of work of course, but there is one YABOT that works pretty well. Maybe you can contact the guy/guys and sell him on this idea. You could make something so fantastic that everyone playing SC would want it. They would see it get more popular right in SC. I'm sure husky would proote it as an amazing custom map, arcade game or whatever it would have to be again bringing in hundreds of thousands of casuals. From there it would spread. It would also bring in a shitload of people that have their own modified grids and don't see any reasons to switch to "theCore" just yet, like a lot of masters / high masters / semi-pro level players. The advantage the trainer would bring would be too big to pass up on and a lot of those guys would finally succumb and say, alright, I'll give this thing a try. With the trainer I'll only be away from the ladder for a finite amount of time and apparently so many people are using this and moving up the ranks quickly. I should at least try that. I'm sure you'd eventually help create some top top level players with this that would even promote "theCore" to the fanbase at big events. That would get some of the big names talking about it on the tournament stage. Thus you would reach even casuals that only really watch and play a desert strike here and there. Even they would wonder if that could be a way for them to get started without such a steep learning curve. A trainer like the one I described would not only make "theCore" easier to learn for good folks, it would make it a go to tool even for newbs. It would take one of the weaknesses "theCore" currently has and turn it into a massive strength. Of course that's all just my opinion. | ||
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TheRealKinetic
Germany10 Posts
On April 07 2013 16:41 FutureTrash wrote: @TheRealKinetic You (or whoever) might want to consider making a Processing script that would sync with the hotkey files. The United States presidential election map on the wikipedia page might be an example of how this could work. That reads interesting. I am not a coder, but I learn fairly fast. I will be trying to learn a few languages eventually, so maybe I will do as you suggest just to practice a little and it's generally JAVA based and that would be the most interesting thing to learn for me anyway, so it may be a good help for some practical experience with something JAVA related. There is just the issue that I don't truly get how this would be useful for the graphic I made or otherwise? Can you give me a more detailed description of what you would actually like to see? | ||
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TheRealKinetic
Germany10 Posts
So here is the correct version of my learning help image: [img=http://s22.postimg.org/qvblneul9/The_Core_Groups_Cams_Abilities.jpg] http://postimg.org/image/qvblneul9/b4c49c0f/ | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
I am getting used to going from ctrl to shift ctrl. Still, not optimal yet. There is no suggested ov group because they are all taken up by units. There is a lot more I would love room for: Nydus, creep queens, drops, overlords, overseers, etc... What do you think we can or should change? @Clagus I could be wrong, but I don't think there are currently plans to create small and large spreadsheets. Perhaps in the future. They would be simple to make, but time consuming to maintain. @Sandbox, Thanks so much for sharing, I appreciate it. | ||
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teuthida
United States104 Posts
On April 07 2013 13:16 JDub wrote: Seeing how the desktop app Hotkey Trainer has been abandoned, I am considering trying to make a new one. Before that happens, I'd like some input on how it should work! What would your ideal hotkey trainer look like? What was done well in the Hotkey Trainer linked in the OP? What could have been done better? I can't promise anything, but if I can come up with a solid design and am convinced it would be worthwhile/useful, I'm game to make it. One thing about the old hotkey trainer scripts as related to the core, sometimes it would ask for CG 3 or camera 4 etc, and I would have no idea the exact number, just what keys are CGs and cameras (or maybe an option like, create a control group or set a camera, without selecting a specific number). So maybe an option to disable those and only do units / buildings. Also an option for abilities and research upgrades as well may be useful. | ||
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thayneq
96 Posts
On April 07 2013 14:02 Ninjury_J wrote: @thayneq, That is really cool. If we can figure out a way to deal with it modify the ctrl to shift Ctrl awkwardness the method will be great! Ok so upon further testing (and some radical experiments involving cameras on , and . ).... I have come to the conclusion that the benefit to using the CTRL+SHIFT J and O using my method are not worth the awkwardness if having to toggle shift while holding control. Since spreading creep is so common, requiring this tricky mechanic every 30 seconds just isn't worth it, but we're close. I am now back to the opinion that the free cams should be set with CTRL and recalled with a single key. This puts us back to 0.63 with the cams on Y and G, or, putting one on Y and the other on one of the side mouse buttons. For me, having one on the side mouse is OK, and here's why: - if you put your zerg tech buildings to match the unit CGs (pool with lings, pit with infestors, spire with mutas, etc) you reduce the amount of tabbing between unit types because there are rarely more than 3-4 unit types in a CG. - this means you only really need one side button to tab forward through your units. - this frees up one side button for free cam. In testing, even having one free cam to follow your main creep path has been really helpful, and using CTRL only is a lifesaver on the thumb awkwardness. What do you think? | ||
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