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On March 22 2013 09:32 pagos.Elite wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 08:57 JaKaTaK wrote:On March 22 2013 07:54 Shompol wrote:Hello, I am considering TheCore, as my control is on the slow side (APM ~30), but there is one issue that I need to overcome:  The right-handed layout makes one use left hand on the right side of the keyboard. This is an uncharted territory for a left had to be. Not only will it impede learning, but I also want my game keyboard skills to be transferable to my other computer interactions.  So, the question is as follows: Is it possible to rip full benefits of TheCore while using a left-handed layout, given that I am right-handed?There is probably no reason why not, but wanted to double-check with the experts before I dive into this. Thank you I actually use TheCore for all computer games I play. Sc2, LoL, DotA 2, even pokemon mmo  I really like it in LoL  I strongly suggest committing to learning TheCore. Once its in the fingers, few ever to go back How in the world are you using it for LoL and DotA 2? Also, whats the change between 0.6.2 and 0.6.3??? And, honestly learning this is easy, I started learning it after playing 150+ games using a slightly modified Standard layout. I've learned to fully use this layout after about 30 games AND at the same time learning a completely new race ( Zerg). Honestly, on the outside this looks like a typical hotkey layout but the layered cameras and how accessible the Control Groups and Cams are make this very efficient. My APM is now around 170 and sometimes above 200 while using TheCore with Zerg( have only played 40 games of it in 4v4 only). When I go to play Terran (my main race) I dont really benefit much from TheCore unless its late game.
The difference between 0.6.2 and 0.6.3 is the name, you've probably been playing on 0.6.2 for a while now, but I couldn't update the version name on my partners laptop.
Using TheCore for MOBAs is really easy.
for right handed players:
J is attack
IOP are 3 abilities
; is Ultimate
LK are summoner spells or 2 other abilities
For LoL specificially I use Ctrl for non-smartcast Shift for Level up and Alt for Self-cast
The other stuff is pretty much up to you
@Feng
I use a lefty mouse, so my version is very likely not going to work for most people. Making the files on LoL is an absolute pain in the ass. Is so ridiculous how many unnecessary steps there are to customize hotkeys. That being said, anyone can do it, it'll just take some time.
@Shompol
Chameleon is not as efficient as TheCore so I spend most of my time working on TheCore. Chameleon is made to be easy to pick up for most gamers, but more efficient that grid or standard. I do use as much of the things I learned from working on TheCore in Chameleon, but only part of it.
However, using the lefty version of TheCore as a right handed mouser negates most of the benefits, if not all of them. Chameleon is far superior to using the wrong side of TheCore.
On March 22 2013 23:41 Fork wrote:
With the rest position JIOP I cannot comfortably hit the ENTER key on my 7G keyboard, this requires a considerable stretch of my index finger because my JIO fingers do not shift in position. Hitting backspace requires the pivoting of my entire hand around the pinky.
I think playing with a "loose" hand is best. I don't try to keep my JIO fingers on their home keys if it is uncomfortable and use 1 finger (often my thumb) for a point of reference and let the others move as I reach for the further keys. This puts less stress on my hand while playing.
Loving the discussion. 0.9.9 is going to be excellent
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And out of some twist of fate, Jak made the 3000th post of this thread! Keep up the amazing work everyone! All the discussion, contribution, testing, sharing and learning is so cool to watch and be a part of. I look forward to seeing what wonderful innovations we can come up with going forward.
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Quick question : in TheCore 0.6.3 Reference Spreadsheet, there is no mention of small or large layout. Am I dumb or did I missed something ? I am trying to select the best one for me, and I would like to try some important key sequences using TLS TLM and TLL to get the feeling of which one I am more comfortable with.
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HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!
Okay, so we just picked up 2 keys on Protoss, Terran and Random layouts. 2 keys is so fucking huge... seriously.
Pretty much every ability is going to be faster. We're layering the free cams on the ability side of the homekeys. They will still be free cameras because they'll be set with Ctl+Shift and not Alt, however, they will be recalled with control. This also means that creep spread and chronoboosting with cameras can be done almost exclusively with the homekeys as well as cutting out actions if we use a particularly efficient macro cycle (chronoboosting and creep spreading after making units and adding them into a CG with Ctrl then holding Ctrl and pressing the button for the layered free cam). This sequence makes it the same as if we had the free cams on the homekeys with no modifiers in these situations.
It also means I have to start over as far as building the 0.9.9 files, but damn, this is ridiculous.
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@Slow.Wif
The reference sheet only contains information for the medium layouts. Small layouts have (almost) all keys to the right, and large layouts have keys to the left. To select the best layout for you, just see what is comfortable (all finger sequences will be the same, I think)
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On March 23 2013 01:57 Ninjury_J wrote:
@Slow.Wif
The reference sheet only contains information for the medium layouts. Small layouts have (almost) all keys to the right, and large layouts have keys to the left. To select the best layout for you, just see what is comfortable (all finger sequences will be the same, I think)
Thanks, it was not obvious. I'll go for medium then.
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Russian Federation100 Posts
perhaps make a quick *note in the first post next to the spreadsheet link to recap how to adjust for an S layout by shifting keys. (i mean, it sounds like common sense but given the overall complexity people might be aprehensive at doing it blindly)
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On March 23 2013 01:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!
Okay, so we just picked up 2 keys on Protoss, Terran and Random layouts. 2 keys is so fucking huge... seriously.
Pretty much every ability is going to be faster. We're layering the free cams on the ability side of the homekeys. They will still be free cameras because they'll be set with Ctl+Shift and not Alt, however, they will be recalled with control. This also means that creep spread and chronoboosting with cameras can be done almost exclusively with the homekeys as well as cutting out actions if we use a particularly efficient macro cycle (chronoboosting and creep spreading after making units and adding them into a CG with Ctrl then holding Ctrl and pressing the button for the layered free cam). This sequence makes it the same as if we had the free cams on the homekeys with no modifiers in these situations.
It also means I have to start over as far as building the 0.9.9 files, but damn, this is ridiculous.
Sounds drastically different from the current core...means another phase of re-learning? :<
What does Alt do if it doesn't set up cams? Is it really that significantly superior?
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On March 23 2013 03:15 Geva wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 01:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!
Okay, so we just picked up 2 keys on Protoss, Terran and Random layouts. 2 keys is so fucking huge... seriously.
Pretty much every ability is going to be faster. We're layering the free cams on the ability side of the homekeys. They will still be free cameras because they'll be set with Ctl+Shift and not Alt, however, they will be recalled with control. This also means that creep spread and chronoboosting with cameras can be done almost exclusively with the homekeys as well as cutting out actions if we use a particularly efficient macro cycle (chronoboosting and creep spreading after making units and adding them into a CG with Ctrl then holding Ctrl and pressing the button for the layered free cam). This sequence makes it the same as if we had the free cams on the homekeys with no modifiers in these situations.
It also means I have to start over as far as building the 0.9.9 files, but damn, this is ridiculous. Sounds drastically different from the current core...means another phase of re-learning? :< What does Alt do if it doesn't set up cams? Is it really that significantly superior?
I'm guessing the idea is that the base cams can be set up once at the beginning of the game, and then never touched again. Therefore, using a bad key like Alt is just fine. Free cams are for things that will be changed throughout the game (e.g. Rally point, creep front) and therefore merit something more efficient than Alt.
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@Geva,
The old "base cameras" will stay exactly where they are. They will be set with alt, which is also center on current selection, and recalled with shift. There are six of these. The two other cameras are free, in the sense that they are not bound with center on selection. They will be on the home row: J and I for P,T and R and J and O for Z. They will be set with shift and Ctrl and recalled with Ctrl. This is the only new thing to learn, which is actually very similar to other TheCore actions. (For example, adding to and resetting control groups). For T, P and R, this means abilities will be on better keys. For Z, inject and creep spread will both be on the most efficient keys possible.
I'm not sure if I addressed your concerns. Is there anything else you would like clarified?
Edit: Smackzilla, you are almost 100 percent right. The alt cameras can be set (and should be IMO) at the beginning of the game. However, for Zerg at least, they will be reset once a base is up. I'm not sure about Protoss and Terran. Is there any reason to have them perfectly centred? The shift/Ctrl cameras will be constantly changing, or at least the option is there.
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Russian Federation100 Posts
For Terran i would assume you'd want to center on the mineral patches for most efficient deployment of Mule
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Completely clarified, sounds amazing. I've only been using one free cam, and even that kind of sparingly. Now with the free cams accessible for upgrades/warp in pylon...sounds absolutely terrific.
Thanks for the clarification
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On March 23 2013 01:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!
Okay, so we just picked up 2 keys on Protoss, Terran and Random layouts. 2 keys is so fucking huge... seriously.
Pretty much every ability is going to be faster. We're layering the free cams on the ability side of the homekeys. They will still be free cameras because they'll be set with Ctl+Shift and not Alt, however, they will be recalled with control. This also means that creep spread and chronoboosting with cameras can be done almost exclusively with the homekeys as well as cutting out actions if we use a particularly efficient macro cycle (chronoboosting and creep spreading after making units and adding them into a CG with Ctrl then holding Ctrl and pressing the button for the layered free cam). This sequence makes it the same as if we had the free cams on the homekeys with no modifiers in these situations.
It also means I have to start over as far as building the 0.9.9 files, but damn, this is ridiculous.
You're gonna have to go slower than that! To test it, do I change Set Camera 7/8 to Ctrl+Shift+J/I and recall to Ctrl+J/I and that's it? The way you're saying it, it feels like we have more than 2 free cameras left to tinker with!
EDIT: thanks for the MOBA tip, Jak. I'll try your layout and see if it works as good as the Core on sc2! One problem is that Dota doesn't like Shift+button for abilities or item activation! huge bummer, since Dota would have benefited much more due to its many active items! But I digress...
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On March 23 2013 01:56 JaKaTaK wrote:
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!
Okay, so we just picked up 2 keys on Protoss, Terran and Random layouts. 2 keys is so fucking huge... seriously.
Pretty much every ability is going to be faster. We're layering the free cams on the ability side of the homekeys. They will still be free cameras because they'll be set with Ctl+Shift and not Alt, however, they will be recalled with control. This also means that creep spread and chronoboosting with cameras can be done almost exclusively with the homekeys as well as cutting out actions if we use a particularly efficient macro cycle (chronoboosting and creep spreading after making units and adding them into a CG with Ctrl then holding Ctrl and pressing the button for the layered free cam). This sequence makes it the same as if we had the free cams on the homekeys with no modifiers in these situations.
It also means I have to start over as far as building the 0.9.9 files, but damn, this is ridiculous. ]
So does this affect the Zerg layout at all then? And if have learned the Zerg layout perfectly can I play Terran with the same layout? Also, I never use free cams, I dont even use all my layered cams.
@Fork, you're exactly like me. I've been playing FPS "hardcore" like I have over 10000+ hrs put in in the past couple of years. It feels that way until you learn to accept it. For me its now comfortable. Do this, tilt the keyboard then move it North West (not really, imagine u facing forward is North). It will relieve the cramped feeling completely
@Ninjury_J , I (personally) think its (medium layout) used the most because the layout comes in M format. I was more comfortable with L but there was no spreadsheet and I didnt know the keys only move one space over so I just stuck with Medium. I think thats why its the most used.
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@Feng
yes. Change those cameras, and now you can use the keys the cameras used to be on for units/abilites! I'll be working on it in TheCore Archive.
@pagos
this will affect the zerg layout the least as far as the actual keys are concerned, but the creep spread combo is going to be pretty sweet
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I asked earlier but the question got lost in other discussion:
Are ones that use mouse buttons changing? Mouse button setups have build on - and advanced on [ but that is not the case for non mouse. Should I try to get used to that now or is that not changing?
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There will be a lot of change, I'll try to get 0.9.9 out asap. If you want to get a headstart, you can update your layout using the archive as I create the new spreadsheet (working on protoss right now).
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Ok thx, guess / got moved up in priority
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/ Became an ability and so was put into the priority list for Abilities, whereas before it was a global key.
EDIT: Using TheCore to create Control Groups faster:
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I have no extra mouse buttons. Will it be possible for me to use The Core 1.0 without major modifications?
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EPT
