EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 150
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Snoodles
401 Posts
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fengshaun
149 Posts
On March 22 2013 08:51 Ninjury_J wrote: Theyneq, I don't think it is a good idea to introduce actions that are not tournament legal into TheCore. That being said, your own choice for ladder is perfectly fine IMO. Your creep spread idea made me think of something: I would appreciate if someone can please test this, as I will have no access to sc2 for a bit. Please go into a custom game and get a queen, spread a tumour. Then, in your hotkey file, make camera 7 recall to "ctrl + i". Make camera 7 create set to "alt+ i". Make spread creep "i". Then try to spread creep by: 1) click a new creep tumour and press alt I. 2) wait 15 seconds and move your camera. 3) press ctrl I. 4) keep pressing ctrl. Click the spreadable tumour(s). 5) release ctrl. press I and spread creep. 6) keep I pressed. Press alt. 7) repeat starting at 2. In theory this doesn't conflict with anything I can think of.... Ctrl I (ability 2) is never used on zxmx because it is not a control group and alt I is not used because I is not a camera yet. If someone or many people can try this and tell us if it is A) easy or hard B) conflicting with something else C) useful (does it spread creep well or does center on current selection screw it up?) D) do you see a better way to make this better ... I would be very grateful  I tried it and it seems to work well! I change Camera 7 create to Shift or Alt+H (since poop tumor is on H) and Camera 7 recall to Ctrl+H With Shift: things worked pretty well. Everything seemed to be smooth. All I had to do to update the camera location to the outer-most tumor wave is to scroll and Shift+H did the job. With Alt: A bit weirder, I would say. The upside is that as long as you have a tumor selected, your camera creation is guaranteed to be proper, so you don't have to adjust it yourself. The problem was that when you create tumors from old tumors, the old tumors stay selected, so when you Ctrl+click tumors -> clickety click to create tumors, your old tumors are still selected, and there is a delay between when you click to create tumors and when you can click the new tumors due to the tumor worm. I had to box the new tumors and then Alt+H did the job perfectly. So, both are viable, but with Alt, I feel like there is more unnecessary delay in the whole cycle! And this is actually a really good idea, since now I don't have to use a separate CG for creep queen and Camera 7 is actually used! (it can be designated the creep camera!) EDIT: to answer your questions: A) easy (of course not easy right now, but I can see how it's going to be muscle memory later on) B) no conflicts C) useful, center selection delays the process a bit D) I can't think of any other tournament-approved ways. EDIT2: I tried it a bit more, and I really can't decide between Shift and Alt. I really dislike the delay, but don't want to pass on the perfectly-centered tumors that are going to be easy-to-select due to muscle memory later on. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
1) finish current task. 2) inject 3) make units, CTRL click them to add to cg 4) keep pressing Ctrl. Press I. 5) spread creep 6) while the new tumor spawns make ovs and place around map 7) click the new tumour and make the new camera. One reason shift won't work is that creep is likely going to be back on ability 2 (I for ZRM, E for ZLM). Hence, shift I should not be a camera because of shift queuing. Likewise, M would be a bad choice (if we use shift) because it will be ability 4. So the best solution seems to me to use alt and to use the time to always make OVs... That way you will associate injects with creep and creep spread with overlords. Alternatively, something like H or 8 can be used as the camera, but I don't think it is as fast because of the need to scroll + worse key. There are 3 options that I see: 1.Use I (ab2) with alt as create and Ctrl as recall Pros: camera is on a home key, smooth transition from making units to spreading creep. Easy to associate camera with creep spread because they share a button. Cons: Alt problem if it is a problem. Arguably a double key press which may or may not be mitigated when the mouse travels to select the new tumor. 2.Use M (ab4) with alt as create and Ctrl as recall Pros: smooth transition from making units, no double key press. Cons: Alt problem if it is a problem. Ability 4 is worse than ability 2 and would be on a different key than spread creep. 3.Use Ab5 with shift as create and Ctrl as recall. Pros: no alt problem, gives opportunity for another use of the camera (I don't think this should be weighted heavily though, as zerg wil still have one more and little "normal" uses left.) Cons: the camera will be on the worst key out of these options. It will make the macro cycle slightly less efficient, although one could change it to make units, Ctrl group them, inject, keep pressing shift, spread creep, make new cam. This cycle dosent "artificially force" making overlords, and there would be a big finger repitition in between making units and injecting from Ctrl to shift. I actually like the delay because its weirdness makes me to think about overlords since its one of the only reasonable actions I can do in that tiny amount of time. What do you think? EDIT 1: Another idea: Make add to and create cg 2 (queens and tech) Ctrl O and Ctrl-shift O. This brings the create and add to cg2 button closer to the select cg button (P) at the cost of probably negligible speed (if even). I almost think we should do this no matter what we decide re:cam 7. This makes J "modifier free" with the exception of shift. Then make select camera 7 "Ctrl J", and create camera 7 either "alt J" (if we like the center on selection and delay) or "shift Ctrl J" (if we do not). If no conclusion is reached, we can make it both and the user can experiment and decide themself. This is the fastest, most versatile, and likely the most efficient option of the ones I described above, IMO. The camera would be on the best key possible, it would eliminate all repetitive keystrokes, it would solve the alt problem while simultaneously allowing alt if desired, and it synergizes nicely with the rest of the macro cycle. Further, the cam can be used for anything else. | ||
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Fork
Russian Federation100 Posts
is there a spreadsheet that lists the keys in the TRS layout? The master spreadsheet lists only L and M and i'm one of the few who prefers S (even though my hands are large) can just edit the spreadsheet by moving 1 key to right and maintain sequence or are there some combinations that change? | ||
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slowbacontron
United States7722 Posts
On March 22 2013 22:23 Fork wrote: my appologies if this was covered somewhere but thes earch didn't give me a result is there a spreadsheet that lists the keys in the TRS layout? The master spreadsheet lists only L and M and i'm one of the few who prefers S (even though my hands are large) can just edit the spreadsheet by moving 1 key to right and maintain sequence or are there some combinations that change? Yes, everything is shifted 1 key to the right from TRM. If there's any special information you know unfortunately someone else will have to help you out there, as I'm not closely familiar with the layouts. | ||
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ImCrespo
Portugal1 Post
Why are the Zerg hotkeys so different from the P or T ones? For example, the "build basic structure" hotkey for zerg is on the [O] key while it is located on the ['] key for all other setups, same goes for the "build advanced" and for the camera hotkeys (Can't set a location to [shift]+[O] as you can in all other setups). From T to P everything just goes naturally with some diferences, but to Zerg it's a lot different, any special reason? I love the layout, thanks and keep up the good job. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
Right now only the 16 medium size layouts are upkeeped. There as currently 48 versions of TheCore, so keeping spreadsheets of them all would be difficult. Perhaps in the future this will be considered, but I really don't know. For most keys, you can mentally move every one over to the right for small hand players, and to the left for large hand players I am sorry I cannot be more helpful. I am curious: why do you prefer the small layout if you have large hands? With your index on the zero key, what is the farthest number you can hit with your pinky? With your thumb on shift and control, what is the farthest key you can press with your pinkie? | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
The short answer to your question is "yes". The zerg layout is different because zerg works very differently. Because of larva, more abilities are required. But because there is only one production structure, that ability can be afforded. Basically, O for ZRM is an ability key instead of a control group. Further, because of injects, the base cameras are different. Finally, burrow and Unburrow mean that many units have up to 5 abilities. If you want to play all races, I suggest you play Random. It is very similar to Toss and Terran but it has features good for Zerg as well. It is sort of like a jack of all trades, master of none. Alternatively, if you plan on playing zerg a lot more than the other two, you can use the zerg layout and offrace with it. Each layout is made so that off racing is as familiar as possible. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
Comfort. Try all three and see what feels best. Edit: the questions I asked above are my personal measures, but I have no idea how accurate they are. It might be worth looking into in the future. Then again, the vast majority of players apparently play medium anyway, according to the new poll. P.S. if you haven't answered it yet, please do! Thanks | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
Edit: also I think one is better than none. At the very least, this can start your creep spread sequence faster than normal. How do you currently do it yourself? | ||
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Fork
Russian Federation100 Posts
On March 22 2013 22:43 Ninjury_J wrote: I am curious: why do you prefer the small layout if you have large hands? With your index on the zero key, what is the farthest number you can hit with your pinky? With your thumb on shift and control, what is the farthest key you can press with your pinkie? Just for reference.. perhaps I have small hands? In mm measured from the joint crease Thumb 6.9 Index 7.3 Middle 8.3 Ring 8 Pinky 6.5 Maximum span between thumb and pinky, 23mm According to the internet this is an "average" hand. With the rest position JIOP I cannot comfortably hit the ENTER key on my 7G keyboard, this requires a considerable stretch of my index finger because my JIO fingers do not shift in position. Hitting backspace requires the pivoting of my entire hand around the pinky. Perhaps this is because as a long time FPS player, my fingers are used to being stretch to the LEFT (I’m a righty), my pinky is quite proficient at hitting tab/caps/shift/cntrl/alt with high accuracy (caps is what I use for voice com in games or 3rd party software). At the most my index left finger is trained to hit Y on a QWERTY layout while my ASD fingers remain unmoved. Stretching my left hand to the right side of the keyboard has never been an issue, that’s what my right hand is supposedly for., (again because my pinky, ring and middle do not like to be stretched to the right) So in the M layout my index finger is all of a sudden required to do more actions and longer movement than ever before, especially if I follow the suggestion to TILT the keyboard. So I opted for the S layout. I think I just like to keep my fingers cupped closer together, one reason why I could never learn guitar, they just didn’t want to do the stretch. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
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slowbacontron
United States7722 Posts
You are tilting the keyboard, though, right? It doesn't make sense to use TheCore otherwise. | ||
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Fork
Russian Federation100 Posts
On March 22 2013 23:58 slowbacontron wrote: @Fork You are tilting the keyboard, though, right? It doesn't make sense to use TheCore otherwise. yes, i am tilting it which is funny because if i don't tilt it i can actually use the JIOP layout (easier access to the enter key) but then I can't use the thumb for shift/control, although if the windows and that random key next to it would be shift/control then it might work. Also i would like to point out that whle The Core theory talks about that the "natural" curl of the fingers and as such the requirement to tilt it, the years typing on a standard keyboard have made it so that my natural curl follows the slanted line of the keys.... go figure regardless i am fully commited to learning The Core as intended, it's difficult but i totally can see the benefits once i get it down. | ||
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Geva
Israel16 Posts
Back in the day when I played with standard, using 1-2-3 was a lot easier for me to set up in my head. 1-a-2-a-3-a was somehow more comfortable. With The Core it just sort of ends up messy for me. I tried switching 9-0-"-" to 1/2/3 and got like that, but when I shift all three fingers I tend to get misplaced a bit, and I tend to misclick a lot with 9-j-0-j-"-"-j (missing the j sometimes.. Is it just keep doing it 'till it works kind of thing, or is there a different set up of units you recommend? Other then that, I'm LOVING the core. Thanks for all the work you guys put into it! | ||
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Fork
Russian Federation100 Posts
On March 23 2013 00:09 Geva wrote: I tried switching 9-0-"-" to 1/2/3 and got like that, but when I shift all three fingers I tend to get misplaced a bit, and I tend to misclick a lot with 9-j-0-j-"-"-j (missing the j sometimes.. Is it just keep doing it 'till it works kind of thing, or is there a different set up of units you recommend? you don't have to stick to the 1-2-3 control group, there is nothing that says you must use your army by using 1 2 and 3 so if you want to control your army with another control key you're more than inclinded to do so, so if 0 and 9 are giving you a problem you can change them around a bit. also practice does make perfect, consider doing it slower at first and focus on combininging it as a rythm with the bob of your head or stomp of your foot. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On March 22 2013 14:55 SpoogeCoffer wrote: Say you have your bio + all medivacs on one control group (typical terran play), you want to load one of these medivacs and set it up for a drop, the process is to select the control group (we'll say it's control group p), right click the medivac to load it, then while we still have the control group selected shift click the medivac to remove from our selection and then reassign the control group ctrl+shift+p. So: 1) p 2) right click on medivac to load 3) shift click medivac to deselect it 4) ctrl+shift+p to reassign control group p. 5) right click somewhere else to move them away from following medivac, or alternatively hit stop (H for me). From here you can: 1) left click the medivac to select it 2) ctrl+shift+' to put it on the ' control group. 3) right click it somewhere on the map / shift queue up an unload drop somewhere on the map This is how I do it and I can't see a shorter way, it is somewhat annoying I'll agree, but there is no boxing required. Just one accurate shift+ click on the medivac. Well done. I can't think of a way to do it with fewer actions. It barely matters, but the only thing to possibly consider is doing your drop commands before assigning the medivac to the harass CG. Basically, your drop will get there a tiny fraction of a second sooner, because the medivac is flying while you hit ctrl+shift+[ | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On March 23 2013 00:09 Geva wrote: How would you guys recommend breaking out of the "one control group" syndrome, using the core? Back in the day when I played with standard, using 1-2-3 was a lot easier for me to set up in my head. 1-a-2-a-3-a was somehow more comfortable. With The Core it just sort of ends up messy for me. I tried switching 9-0-"-" to 1/2/3 and got like that, but when I shift all three fingers I tend to get misplaced a bit, and I tend to misclick a lot with 9-j-0-j-"-"-j (missing the j sometimes.. Is it just keep doing it 'till it works kind of thing, or is there a different set up of units you recommend? Other then that, I'm LOVING the core. Thanks for all the work you guys put into it! I'm experimenting with the same issue. I tried the triple -09 and and now experimenting with two pairs ;L and 09. The jury is still out, but perhaps I make fewer mistakes with two pairs. I'm also hoping to fight more with 4 CGs, e.g. MMM, Tanks, Vikings, Ravens. | ||
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