EPT[G] TvP 2 Rax - Page 4
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Liszt
Austria86 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote: what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo? If your opponent FFEs you should be able to scout the forge before your build gets all that far, so you can easily branch out and do something else. You could tech up to tanks (bust the cannons) or medivacs (avoid the cannons), or you could just play greedy (e.g. 3 OC) since your opponent will be spending a lot on defense. Edit: If you are responding with the greedy option, you'd want to pull your workers out of gas ASAP after scouting the forge. | ||
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netherh
United Kingdom333 Posts
On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote: what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo? In my experience you're basically screwed. You can't put on pressure, and your expo is so far behind that there's not really much to do. If you scout it early enough, however, it's possible to throw down a second gas and go straight for medivacs and drop play. A tank bust off 1 base may be another possibility, but I never got round to trying that. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On October 24 2012 05:25 netherh wrote: In my experience you're basically screwed. You can't put on pressure, and your expo is so far behind that there's not really much to do. If you scout it early enough, however, it's possible to throw down a second gas and go straight for medivacs and drop play. A tank bust off 1 base may be another possibility, but I never got round to trying that. tank bust works well vs that actually, basically you add fac asap, get siege, maybe even switch TL with rax, pump marine+tank. 450 minerals = bigger window of time you have to do damage, and also his firepower being static defense = you able to get good position with tanks. even transitioning into 2-1-1 allin with tanks + medivac or banshee and pushing later may work but i can't wait that long since their econ will probably crush you by then. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote: This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes. Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case. I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed. worst case, the terran executes perfectly, hits seconds before warpgate (5-10) with 5 rines 1 maraud and 2/1 rallied, vs 3 gateway units. if you fight straight up and let him snowball...yes. if you immediately overcompensate, pull tons of probes (at least 10) mineral walk through army and charge, you will come out at least even if not ahead. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On October 24 2012 05:40 nath wrote: worst case, the terran executes perfectly, hits seconds before warpgate (5-10) with 5 rines 1 maraud and 2/1 rallied, vs 3 gateway units. if you fight straight up and let him snowball...yes. if you immediately overcompensate, pull tons of probes (at least 10) mineral walk through army and charge, you will come out at least even if not ahead. Indeed. There is a reason why pros never use this build anymore. The maps are too big now and people got used to holding it easily off of 1 gate FE. If the Protoss player just keeps their 3 units alive and warps in 3 more, they can hold easily. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
 Whirlwind, which features both long rush distance and a ramped natural and ramped main, you can't get it to work. The number of pro and ladder maps you can still use this build on is very small.In the current GSL Map Pool, I think it could work on Cloud Kingdom and Entombed Valley. Whirlwind has long rush and ramps, Antiga has longish rush, but ramps, Daybreak has the same problem, Abyssal City I'm not familiar with but it doesn't look easy either. Bel'shir Vestige we'll have to see, with the semi-unramped natural it's a possibility but the long rush distance makes me say "no"-- and in general, Terran has moved away from an early-pressure metagame as the pros have gotten better at defending this sort of thing. I think this is still totally viable at my own level of play, but if you want to get seriously good at Terran, long run it is okay to know this build but you should do most of your practicing with 1 Rax FE instead. | ||
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BioTech
Australia264 Posts
THE BEST bit of advice I can pass to anyone in TvP who chooses 2rax is to use your 2nd batch off CC energy on a scan of the protoss natural exp. If he has expanded you attack, pull 4/5 scvs and destroy that exp (Combat Shield will be completed by this time). If he hasnt he is about to attack you and in masters and higher a well executed 4gate will kill a terran who is not prepared with 2 bunkers | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On October 24 2012 07:10 BioTech wrote: I use 2rax to great success and can beat Grandmaster protoss with it. However I get Combat Shield first. THE BEST bit of advice I can pass to anyone in TvP who chooses 2rax is to use your 2nd batch off CC energy on a scan of the protoss natural exp. If he has expanded you attack, pull 4/5 scvs and destroy that exp (Combat Shield will be completed by this time). If he hasnt he is about to attack you and in masters and higher a well executed 4gate will kill a terran who is not prepared with 2 bunkers Could the same scout timing be accomplished with a hidden scv on the map? Also, I've never seen any pro games where they go 2rax with combat shields instead of concussive, that is a very interesting idea, I may try it out myself. I can see how combat shields would make the push much stronger than concussive. How do you normally transition once you take down the natural and have bunkers at his natural? Do you expand yourself or tech up to tanks + banshees to try to push in and win the game? | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On October 24 2012 07:01 Blazinghand wrote: Another reason this build is used a lot less is, in addition to being bigger, modern maps have choked or ramped naturals that make it very difficult to attack into. Concussive Pressure builds work acceptably on larger maps like Tal'Darim if they have unramped or semi-unramped nats and mains-- but on a map like, say, Whirlwind, which features both long rush distance and a ramped natural and ramped main, you can't get it to work. The number of pro and ladder maps you can still use this build on is very small.In the current GSL Map Pool, I think it could work on Cloud Kingdom and Entombed Valley. Whirlwind has long rush and ramps, Antiga has longish rush, but ramps, Daybreak has the same problem, Abyssal City I'm not familiar with but it doesn't look easy either. Bel'shir Vestige we'll have to see, with the semi-unramped natural it's a possibility but the long rush distance makes me say "no"-- and in general, Terran has moved away from an early-pressure metagame as the pros have gotten better at defending this sort of thing. I think this is still totally viable at my own level of play, but if you want to get seriously good at Terran, long run it is okay to know this build but you should do most of your practicing with 1 Rax FE instead. indeed. my negativity towards 2rax in terms of 'worst case' protoss can handle it and come out at least even (with a probe pull, again worst case) is due to spamming this build in hundreds of games and there was a very specific skill ceiling where people knew EXACTLY how to handle it optimally. i would only use this BO with greedy version, not really commit to the poke, get CS + ghost acad + 3 rax and do a 5 rax ghost allin (with 2 emps + scvs) | ||
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BioTech
Australia264 Posts
On October 24 2012 07:16 JDub wrote: Could the same scout timing be accomplished with a hidden scv on the map? Also, I've never seen any pro games where they go 2rax with combat shields instead of concussive, that is a very interesting idea, I may try it out myself. I can see how combat shields would make the push much stronger than concussive. How do you normally transition once you take down the natural and have bunkers at his natural? Do you expand yourself or tech up to tanks + banshees to try to push in and win the game? U could try an scv scout, but a stalker may kill him so I go the scan - guaranteed...provided youve previously worked out where his base is. If i take down the natural I run home with my remaining troops, put down 2 bunkers and expand coz the protoss usually follows with an all-in. My transition is 4rax, 1fact for tanks, 1 starport+R. Rock up near the protoss base and seige mode/stim him to death. | ||
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BioTech
Australia264 Posts
On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote: what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo? You nuke the Grandmaster protoss for the win! http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=273037 Check it. Basically if u scout forge-expand get your 2nd gas, get a fact, get ghost academy. Get +1 and stim, or at least one of them, then attack with your bio. You scan his ramp, drop the nuke (12 range) a bit in front of the cannons....then bring down the thunder! After the smoke clears u run thru for the win. In the past 2 mths Ive tried this 4 times, pulled off 3 nukes and won those 3. Lost the failed nuke attempt. | ||
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
On October 24 2012 05:15 Liszt wrote: what if the protoss forge fast expands and when your push comes you find 2-3 cannons at the protoss natural. watdo? a bunch of options: 1. Make a reaper 2. Marauders are pretty good vs buildings, get stim and allin him. 3. pull all ur scvs and kill him. 4. rush medivacs and drop ur army in his main. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On October 24 2012 07:10 BioTech wrote: I use 2rax to great success and can beat Grandmaster protoss with it. However I get Combat Shield first. THE BEST bit of advice I can pass to anyone in TvP who chooses 2rax is to use your 2nd batch off CC energy on a scan of the protoss natural exp. If he has expanded you attack, pull 4/5 scvs and destroy that exp (Combat Shield will be completed by this time). If he hasnt he is about to attack you and in masters and higher a well executed 4gate will kill a terran who is not prepared with 2 bunkers I've developed my own little 2 Rax and have added on +1 Attack as well as Combat Shield to the push. I go for a 14 Marine push at ~7:00 and expand behind it. Marines with +1 attack in the early game shred Protoss units. This build also sets you up nicely for continuous upgrades while always behind ahead in that aspect, should you choose to continue going bio. I still prefer playing Sky Terran over bio in TvP, and I find that this opener lets your transition very safely into that. Here's a replay showing the opener I use, how effective it is against the expanding Protoss and how I transition into Sky Terran afterwards. http://drop.sc/267934 Let me know what you guys think :D | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On October 26 2012 13:20 Synystyr wrote: I've developed my own little 2 Rax and have added on +1 Attack as well as Combat Shield to the push. I go for a 14 Marine push at ~7:00 and expand behind it. Marines with +1 attack in the early game shred Protoss units. This build also sets you up nicely for continuous upgrades while always behind ahead in that aspect, should you choose to continue going bio. I still prefer playing Sky Terran over bio in TvP, and I find that this opener lets your transition very safely into that. Here's a replay showing the opener I use, how effective it is against the expanding Protoss and how I transition into Sky Terran afterwards. http://drop.sc/267934 Let me know what you guys think :D If you are going to go reactor first 2-rax, it's more efficient to build your 2nd rax before your 2nd depot. This obviously lets in probe scouts, so the 2nd depot may be intentional, but you could probably hit with 1-2 more marines if you opened like that. First, I'd say the timing you are hitting is quite dangerous, and if not handled properly, the 14 +1 marines do shred through gateway units and probes. However, I feel your build is situational and depends on the map (in addition to depending on your opponent's reaction, as with most timing attacks). The problem with hitting at 7:00 (or in this replay, 7:30), is that your Protoss opponent can have 5+ forcefields and a few stalkers to chop up your marine force. Your opponent fails pretty terribly to do that, as his forcefields essentially give you his 2 zealots for free. Moreover, he saw that you had pure marine out on the map, but decided not to kite your marines out on the map with his 3 stalkers. I think you will run into the most trouble if you try this on a map with a ramp at the natural, where 2-3 good force fields can chop your marine force in half. That said, I think it's a cool variation of a 2-rax. | ||
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Nightsz
Canada398 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On October 26 2012 14:40 Nightsz wrote: i think stargate openings kills this. Especially if he was opting for a 3 gate stargate allin Any 1-base play from Protoss destroys a 2-rax player who chooses to push. I think that's besides the point, though. This is a build to try to take down your opponent's expansion. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On October 26 2012 14:43 ReachTheSky wrote: This build is pretty dated. It was one of my favorites but i feel that tosses can hold this ppretty easily with an f/e build and come out ahead. The number of maps this works on on the ladder has become pretty small. Check out the section on Execution for some information on this. Basically, if there's a ramp at your opponent's natural or if the rush distance is long this build will not work (or will require risky proxying). | ||
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