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This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
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Personally I do a hyper aggressive 3 rax version of this with a +1 and stim timing at 9:30. It got me into Masters. The key difference is that I build a reaper and during the main assault on the exp i send him to the main workers. A +1 reaper 2-shots probes - its deadly beyond belief! I have racked up double digit kills quite a few times. At the very least it will distract from your main assault OR he goes unnoticed and KILLS!!!
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On May 31 2012 22:27 vBr wrote: Myself I call this build "Korean 2 rax" to not confuse it with a standard gasless 2 rax build.
This is a nice build to have in your arsenal, but a warning finger to most players: This build requires a certain amount of control. You can not just 1a your units in and expect results unless your opponent went for a specifically greedy build. It is a build that is generally employed by players such as MKP and Polt because they have the control required to deal the damage required and then to proceed into a macro game. This is the reason why you see few foreigners doing it (and why I call it korean 2 rax)
Day9 did a daily on this build and showcased a game where the terran player straight out won against White-Ra in a dominating fashion. It was a really poor replay to showcase, because White-Ra did everything wrong there. In fact, this build very rarely ends the game, unless the protoss player simply leaves because you managed to kill his expand, not realising that you are still on one base.
In my humble experience (1200 highmaster terran EU), you will only deal game-winning damage if the opponent did something greedy, such as not throwing down the standard three gateways after nexus or not chronoboosting the warpgate research at least 3 times. Unfortunatly, this is not the case most of the time. Generally, when I deploy this build, the protoss retreats up his ramp and lets me hammer away at the shield on the nexus until his warpgate research finishes (6:30~). Then he proceeds to go down and chase me away.
Nevertheless, despite all this, let me emphasize that this is not a bad build. You will not kill the nexus most of the time, but you will create a situation where you can possibly dictate the pace of the game. The protoss player will, after chasing you away, be forced to keep producing units (unless this is shakuras, where I don't recommend doing this build unless you followup with an all in, more on that in a second) which is not something a protoss player generally want. If you are unfamiliar with the workings of current PvT, the protoss player wants to get away with as few units as possible until he achieves his tech goal - generally colossus or templars. By doing a build such as this one, his gameplan is likely to change and you will continuely be able to threaten his front, forcing him to produce more units than he would really prefer.
This should be your mindset. Do not try to end the game and mindlessly throw away the units you have because then you are truly behind. Instead, you are to force units out of him and trade favourly until your medivacs are out when you can, hopefully, crush him.
An all-in that I often do is to throw up a second gas semi-early and skip a marauder for a really early factory (5 min~) and tech to 8 min medivacs. If you traded favourably at the front, the addition of 8 min medivacs along with stim instead of combatshield will definitely end the game in your favour. Completely agree. I'd like to add that if your opponent doesn't scout at all, I think it's a good build, but otherwise your really just hoping your opponent fucks up (in my experience).
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i fined getting combat shield before stim is better, always. stim lets be aggressive which you wont be doing again till medivacs come out. Combat shield comes about faster, which can come out in time to help with the pressure, stim can't. Also combat shield is better against sustained pressure at ur nat which comes very often as allot of protoses will attempt a large counter push after ur early aggression ends.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On June 01 2012 09:31 Dingobloo wrote: 2rax is still good, but it's not very well suited to the current map pool, all the current maps are made to support FFE in PvZ, so are generally very closed, additionally most of them have reasonably long rush distances.
Still something you should learn, but not really standard at the moment. Great guide, good to see you're using anchors instead of spoiler tags to break up the guide!
Yeah I mean of the current ladder map pool these are the maps I 2 Rax on when laddering: Korhal Compound, Metalopolis, and Tal'Darim Altar. It's usable on other maps, but KC, Metal, and TDA are all unramped-nat or semi-unramped-nat maps. TDA in particular is awesome because there's no ramp into the main-- you can do some serious damage.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Oh wow, that's a really great resource. I added a link and embedded Day9's youtube VoDs as well. Watching the daily presently :3
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On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote: This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums?
most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard.
I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours.
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[QUOTE]On June 01 2012 10:44 aintthatfunny wrote: [QUOTE]On May 31 2012 22:27 vBr wrote: Myself I call this build "Korean 2 rax" to not confuse it with a standard gasless 2 rax build.
This is a nice build to have in your arsenal, but a warning finger to most players: This build requires a certain amount of control. You can not just 1a your units in and expect results unless your opponent went for a specifically greedy build. It is a build that is generally employed by players such as MKP and Polt because they have the control required to deal the damage required and then to proceed into a macro game. This is the reason why you see few foreigners doing it (and why I call it korean 2 rax)
Day9 did a daily on this build and showcased a game where the terran player straight out won against White-Ra in a dominating fashion. It was a really poor replay to showcase, because White-Ra did everything wrong there. In fact, this build very rarely ends the game, unless the protoss player simply leaves because you managed to kill his expand, not realising that you are still on one base.
In my humble experience (1200 highmaster terran EU), you will only deal game-winning damage if the opponent did something greedy, such as not throwing down the standard three gateways after nexus or not chronoboosting the warpgate research at least 3 times. Unfortunatly, this is not the case most of the time. Generally, when I deploy this build, the protoss retreats up his ramp and lets me hammer away at the shield on the nexus until his warpgate research finishes (6:30~). Then he proceeds to go down and chase me away.
Nevertheless, despite all this, let me emphasize that this is not a bad build. You will not kill the nexus most of the time, but you will create a situation where you can possibly dictate the pace of the game. The protoss player will, after chasing you away, be forced to keep producing units (unless this is shakuras, where I don't recommend doing this build unless you followup with an all in, more on that in a second) which is not something a protoss player generally want. If you are unfamiliar with the workings of current PvT, the protoss player wants to get away with as few units as possible until he achieves his tech goal - generally colossus or templars. By doing a build such as this one, his gameplan is likely to change and you will continuely be able to threaten his front, forcing him to produce more units than he would really prefer.
This should be your mindset. Do not try to end the game and mindlessly throw away the units you have because then you are truly behind. Instead, you are to force units out of him and trade favourly until your medivacs are out when you can, hopefully, crush him.
An all-in that I often do is to throw up a second gas semi-early and skip a marauder for a really early factory (5 min~) and tech to 8 min medivacs. If you traded favourably at the front, the addition of 8 min medivacs along with stim instead of combatshield will definitely end the game in your favour.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you if the protoss isn't playing a gateway pressure style (a la parting). If they are playing that style and hold this without economic damage, you are SO boned as his 2 base production will be able to a move up your ramp more likely than not.
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i'm actually surprised people still do this, zealot, stalker nexus, sentry gateway gateway + 2nd gas
bio moves across the map, protoss warps in 3 stalkers and wins the game instantly because you can't have more units off 2 rax. idk i really dislike this build vs good protoss and i think the only way to make it good is to pull many workers and bunker rush the protoss
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On June 02 2012 06:01 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote: This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums? most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard. I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours.
Actually, the newer variant is different from the old Polt version of 2rax in a couple ways. This one has the 2nd rax before orbital, whereas Polt's has orbital and then 2nd rax, which gets your marauder and thus, your push, out a lot faster. This usually lets me hit well before warpgate is done. Of course, bringing an scv or two for a bunker is another key element - while earlier, it still isn't enough time alone to kill the nexus - it is, however, time enough to put up a bunker to prevent them from being able to come down and take out your push. The other difference is the quick reactor starport follow up (with all rax techlab upgrades) that makes for a deadly follow up - this delays the expansion, but often finishes the job (see the Day9 Daily).
This has been my main TvP opening for awhile now, and it is damn effective against 1g fe. I played 13 straight games against my protoss friend who wanted to practice his 1g fe defense against 2rax, and even though he was high master (top 8) and I was low master, I won 9 of the 13 games (3 of them were when I was trying the Polt timing instead of the MKP timing).
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On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote: This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
Based on what? I'm sorry but this is just not true. You need to provide further evidence with such a statement. Polt does this regularly and so does MKP and their win percentage from the opening is probably not even 15%. Myself? I stopped doing it because I rarely won a game that I opened this way. I do not claim to have the control that Polt or any korean has, which is why I stopped doing it, but I am a highmaster terran player who regularly plays GM players. Basically, the only games I straight-out won were games where the opponent did not play standard 1 gate exp.
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On June 02 2012 06:32 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:01 tuestresfat wrote:On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote: This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums? most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard. I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours. Actually, the newer variant is different from the old Polt version of 2rax in a couple ways. This one has the 2nd rax before orbital, whereas Polt's has orbital and then 2nd rax, which gets your marauder and thus, your push, out a lot faster. This usually lets me hit well before warpgate is done. Of course, bringing an scv or two for a bunker is another key element - while earlier, it still isn't enough time alone to kill the nexus - it is, however, time enough to put up a bunker to prevent them from being able to come down and take out your push. The other difference is the quick reactor starport follow up (with all rax techlab upgrades) that makes for a deadly follow up - this delays the expansion, but often finishes the job (see the Day9 Daily). This has been my main TvP opening for awhile now, and it is damn effective against 1g fe. I played 13 straight games against my protoss friend who wanted to practice his 1g fe defense against 2rax, and even though he was high master (top 8) and I was low master, I won 9 of the 13 games (3 of them were when I was trying the Polt timing instead of the MKP timing).
Every 2 rax hits before warpgate is done, its fine. Let him hammer at the nexus, let it drop some shield, maybe half its health. Then go down and clean up.
Bringing scvs are good but bunker will NOT (repeat: NOT) finish intime. Bunker will be at most 50% done when your first warpin has happened.
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On June 02 2012 06:08 McTeazy wrote: I agree with you if the protoss isn't playing a gateway pressure style (a la parting). If they are playing that style and hold this without economic damage, you are SO boned as his 2 base production will be able to a move up your ramp more likely than not.
Nice quote. And this is, unfortunatly, true.
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On June 02 2012 07:39 vBr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:32 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On June 02 2012 06:01 tuestresfat wrote:On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote: This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums? most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard. I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours. Actually, the newer variant is different from the old Polt version of 2rax in a couple ways. This one has the 2nd rax before orbital, whereas Polt's has orbital and then 2nd rax, which gets your marauder and thus, your push, out a lot faster. This usually lets me hit well before warpgate is done. Of course, bringing an scv or two for a bunker is another key element - while earlier, it still isn't enough time alone to kill the nexus - it is, however, time enough to put up a bunker to prevent them from being able to come down and take out your push. The other difference is the quick reactor starport follow up (with all rax techlab upgrades) that makes for a deadly follow up - this delays the expansion, but often finishes the job (see the Day9 Daily). This has been my main TvP opening for awhile now, and it is damn effective against 1g fe. I played 13 straight games against my protoss friend who wanted to practice his 1g fe defense against 2rax, and even though he was high master (top 8) and I was low master, I won 9 of the 13 games (3 of them were when I was trying the Polt timing instead of the MKP timing). Every 2 rax hits before warpgate is done, its fine. Let him hammer at the nexus, let it drop some shield, maybe half its health. Then go down and clean up. Bringing scvs are good but bunker will NOT (repeat: NOT) finish intime. Bunker will be at most 50% done when your first warpin has happened.
The protoss won't have enough units with just one warp in. The usual scenario is pre-warpin they have 3 units, usually a zealot, stalker, and sentry. Assuming they have 4 gates, by the time warpin finishes they'll probably have 2 zealots, 1 sentry, and 4 stalkers (if they didn't have a sentry at the start, you can push inside main and kill some units/pressure probes and cause general havoc/damage). At that point, terran usually has at least 3 marauders and 8-9 marines, which is easily enough to beat that. So, protoss has to wait longer, and by that point the bunker is done.
[Edit] A good 2rax push should also take advantage of positioning in the natural, usually, both bunker and units would be placed in a good concave around the base of the ramp to take advantage of the superior positioning/the fact that protoss is being forced to come out to the terran.
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I really like using this build on maps where I feel like a 1rax FE is vulnerable. If you screw up the initial engagement against a protoss expand you are very far behind, but on the plus side you are far less vulnerable to allins if you choose this build. This is definitely a good build to know for smaller maps.
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I think I'm one of the only ones that just gets a second gate, doesn't chrono any warpgate at all, and uses it all on my gateways instead, and manages to crush 2rax every single time without any probe drills and engaging IMMEDIATELY. Works far better with a Nex first admittedly, but still works regardless.
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when it comes to these types of rush-builds every second seems to count, MKP many times don't even scout on 2 player maps when he does the 2 rax so that his rush hits just a bit faster. Also I'd like to see scv's pulled to bunker up and force down the natural.
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On June 02 2012 07:56 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 07:39 vBr wrote:On June 02 2012 06:32 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On June 02 2012 06:01 tuestresfat wrote:On June 01 2012 09:43 Complete wrote: This build is actually really really REALLY good, speaking from a protoss point of view who has studied 1g FE's extensively. Very few 1g FE variations can hold a non-proxied, quick, properly executed 2rax, and that's only if the 1g FE BO is executed perfectly. Anybody saying different (hint, people in this thread) hasn't done the actual math. Most 2raxes aren't executed effectively and quick enough and that's why they seem so easily defeatable sometimes.
Seconds matter with this build though, so I recommend practicing the BO a lot and knowing exactly what you're doing/when you're pushing out/placing bulidings close to the ramp. Always bring an scv or 2 for bunkers just in case.
I can't imagine any 1g FE can hold this build with 1 rax proxied if unscouted/the BO is perfectly executed.
so the majority of the 1gate FE's you studied extensively can't hold the most standard reactor-techlab that has been around for months? Where are you getting these build orders, battle.net forums? most 2raxes are executed incorrectly and inefficiently? damn, those pros better practice harder. executing a build order up to mid 30 supply must be so hard. I'm sorry to hear you have trouble executing a 1gate FE up to to the 6min mark despite the fact that you will be doing it every single game. That's really unfortunate, but I'm sure it's the build's fault not yours. Actually, the newer variant is different from the old Polt version of 2rax in a couple ways. This one has the 2nd rax before orbital, whereas Polt's has orbital and then 2nd rax, which gets your marauder and thus, your push, out a lot faster. This usually lets me hit well before warpgate is done. Of course, bringing an scv or two for a bunker is another key element - while earlier, it still isn't enough time alone to kill the nexus - it is, however, time enough to put up a bunker to prevent them from being able to come down and take out your push. The other difference is the quick reactor starport follow up (with all rax techlab upgrades) that makes for a deadly follow up - this delays the expansion, but often finishes the job (see the Day9 Daily). This has been my main TvP opening for awhile now, and it is damn effective against 1g fe. I played 13 straight games against my protoss friend who wanted to practice his 1g fe defense against 2rax, and even though he was high master (top 8) and I was low master, I won 9 of the 13 games (3 of them were when I was trying the Polt timing instead of the MKP timing). Every 2 rax hits before warpgate is done, its fine. Let him hammer at the nexus, let it drop some shield, maybe half its health. Then go down and clean up. Bringing scvs are good but bunker will NOT (repeat: NOT) finish intime. Bunker will be at most 50% done when your first warpin has happened. The protoss won't have enough units with just one warp in. The usual scenario is pre-warpin they have 3 units, usually a zealot, stalker, and sentry. Assuming they have 4 gates, by the time warpin finishes they'll probably have 2 zealots, 1 sentry, and 4 stalkers (if they didn't have a sentry at the start, you can push inside main and kill some units/pressure probes and cause general havoc/damage). At that point, terran usually has at least 3 marauders and 8-9 marines, which is easily enough to beat that. So, protoss has to wait longer, and by that point the bunker is done. [Edit] A good 2rax push should also take advantage of positioning in the natural, usually, both bunker and units would be placed in a good concave around the base of the ramp to take advantage of the superior positioning/the fact that protoss is being forced to come out to the terran.
First warpin is definitely enough. You will have, with 3 gates, 1 zealot, 1 sentry and 4 stalkers vs, just like you say, 2-3 marauders and 8-9 marines. However, the only really dangerous units are the marauders, all you need to do is to take out them. Focusfire the rauders, he can't kite because stalkers have the same range. Guardian shield on the sentry beforehand so the marines damage are minimal and you will end up in a scenario where there are only 6-7 rins present vs 2 stalkers and a sentry (assuming he controlled really well) and then your warpin is ready again. 3 Zealots or stalkers and the threat is removed. Then the scenario that I spoke about in my initial post occurs: He has the possibility to start trading decently, but under no condition should his 2 rax do more damage than this unless you were too greedy.
Your argument simply lacks evidence. This is a strategy that every master+ terran have used several times, perhaps over long periods of time. Additionally, every korean terran seems to have this strategy for a match here and there. If this strategy really dealt crippling damage every game, trust me, this would be the standard strategy of EVERY TvP.
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I just want to say that I hope your guide format becomes the new standard for guides written on TL.
In fact, you should write a guide on how to format a guide.
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