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On May 30 2012 00:21 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 23:51 quillian wrote:
Hope this helps! I have been having a blast with this so far, the extreme econ advantage and high unit count early game really throw people off. I expect we might see some new/more all ins if people start figuring it out, though, as you get almost no sentries early game and a somewhat later robo. You can get an obs in time for dt, but it can be close, and 5 stalker into blink timing is worrying. If you see somebody tech, I wonder what is better: the 5'30 expo, or the 4-gate and push with 3z 7st and only drop a nexus reactively when you force a ton of sentry ? A 4-gate push like that can be devastating versus a ton of builds. First of all, I doubt greedy twilight builds (blink/dts) can hold... in the worst case he'd have to warp tons of sentries reactively. Since it's one of the standard builds, that's already a ton of "freewins" you may get from that. You're also in great shape against stargate play. You can probably hold and counter all 4-gate variants, including the 4 gate prism which is always annoying ( since you'll hit him earlier ). You'll get an insta win versus any forms of expo before yours. What does that leave ? Well, I can think of robo play and 2-gas 4-gates slow tech variants ( like 3 gate robo blink ). Your tech will be delayed by a lot, especially as you don't have a second gas for so long, so maybe one-base colossi or some blink timings may be more tricky than if you expoed at 5:30. I don't know for sure, but I'll definitely try on ladder.
Yeah you can definitely try and be aggressive with it, the thing is unlike a normal 4 gate the bulk of your army is spawning out of normal gateways at home and have to walk across the map. Your attack will hit much later, and he can easily have an immortal + 2 sentry out. Your units will get split in half on the ramp and chewed up...
I really like the FE variation because it is SO early and unexpected while being safe. Most players have no idea what to do. If they try to drop a 2nd themselves they are ridiculously behind economically. If they push you will have a large standing army and 1 robo 4 gates to reinforce... it's really a mess for them.
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On May 30 2012 00:11 quillian wrote:
Sorry for double post, I had someone PM me about the 8/10 gate timings I have referenced twice, so I thought I'd clarify.
Basically because we have no sentries and don't scout much I'm concerned about super aggressive warpgate cheese, like the optimized korean 4 gate or 10 gate stalker. I just haven't had games against these and don't know how it would work.
Earliest possible warpgate. Proxy pylons going down in your base before your stalker finishes. nightmare situation =D
This kind of cheese can pose a real problem since we have no sentries, and I don't know how the stalker timings line up.
One final question - I feel bad taking over the thread with a similar but slightly different build discussion. Should we move this to a new thread?
I've actually tested those scenarios with a friend, and it can hold, but it's tricky. That's in the context of the OP ( not your build, but I think it'd also be valid with yours ).
Things that I've learned:
- worst reaction possible is to pull all probes to try to deny those pylons. That won't happen, period, when doing this kind of cheese the attacker will drop 3-4 pylons in your main, and will cancel whatever pylon you're focusing on with your probes at the last second. It's just lost mining time.
- at the second it's scouted, all your chronos should go into the gates. You need to get 3 stalkers as fast as possible.
- you must do damage to the warping zealots, so your stalkers must be in range to wherever he's going to warp. 5s of bonus damage is a zealot half damaged, by the time they come into contact with your stalkers and you need to kite, you can have one zealot killed for free.
- don't forget to drop 2 additional gates in the middle of the panic :p
Note: that was tested against the 10-gate version with 5 chronos on warp.
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On May 30 2012 00:28 quillian wrote:
Yeah you can definitely try and be aggressive with it, the thing is unlike a normal 4 gate the bulk of your army is spawning out of normal gateways at home and have to walk across the map. Your attack will hit much later, and he can easily have an immortal + 2 sentry out. Your units will get split in half on the ramp and chewed up...
You can make an early pylon somewhere near his natural or third. You'll be warping around 6'10, so you can walk up his ramp with a single zealot to "test grounds" around 6'00 while dropping a pylon in his natural. At this point, if you see an immortal or many sentries, you can expo and you'll only have lost a zealot. If there are no sentries, you can attack with close reinforcements. At least that's what I'd try to do. I guess if I spot sentries my expo will go down around 6'45, and the robo around 7'00.
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It seems to me like you're not giving people enough credit. I think anyone who bothers to check the strategy section on TL can execute a simple expand while they are attacking... It's not that multitask intensive.
Back to the build. I like it, seems pretty good, but I hate chronoing anything but my nexus in the beginning.
Nice analysis.
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On May 30 2012 00:55 GreEny K wrote:
It seems to me like you're not giving people enough credit. I think anyone who bothers to check the strategy section on TL can execute a simple expand while they are attacking... It's not that multitask intensive.
Back to the build. I like it, seems pretty good, but I hate chronoing anything but my nexus in the beginning.
Nice analysis.
then try it and post back with replays and results. getting an expansion, infrastructure and microing your zealots/stalkers at the same time shoots my apm up to over 350 easily, no sweat, and yet still i'm making mistakes in there. so yes you need a good high level of execution and multitasking.
I got a good idea Quillan ( and not trying to be offensive! ) go post your own guide 
Lets keep this guide for the Sase style one, and you make your guide with your style one, both have very valid and good points on why to do what you do, and both get up a reasonable safe expo. So this might be a new metagame coming up in PvP to force macro games, and that would be huge if we get several variations on it, and we can start stress testing both builds 100% against certain openings.
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On May 30 2012 01:36 TechSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 00:55 GreEny K wrote:
It seems to me like you're not giving people enough credit. I think anyone who bothers to check the strategy section on TL can execute a simple expand while they are attacking... It's not that multitask intensive.
Back to the build. I like it, seems pretty good, but I hate chronoing anything but my nexus in the beginning.
Nice analysis. then try it and post back with replays and results. getting an expansion, infrastructure and microing your zealots/stalkers at the same time shoots my apm up to over 350 easily, no sweat, and yet still i'm making mistakes in there. so yes you need a good high level of execution and multitasking. I got a good idea Quillan ( and not trying to be offensive! ) go post your own guide Lets keep this guide for the Sase style one, and you make your guide with your style one, both have very valid and good points on why to do what you do, and both get up a reasonable safe third. So this might be a new metagame coming up in PvP to force macro games, and that would be huge if we get several variations on it, and we can start stress testing both builds 100% against certain openings.
I agree tech, I was just working on it =) Sorry this ended up cluttering your thread a bit. I love the idea of a new macro oriented PvP metagame, let's work to make it a reality!
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how do you deal against a phoenix 4 gate?
you just get absolutely raped
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cool bulid, i really want to try it now
the no scouting thing seems kind of intense -.-'
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How do you hold a 3 gate two gas with this build. You can't scout it until it hits and you scout 2 gas, so you would thing tech build. If he puts a pylon out of range, and then warps in units you will have a unit disadvantage and then lose
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On June 05 2012 07:16 Abusion wrote:
how do you deal against a phoenix 4 gate?
you just get absolutely raped
I just beat a phoenix player in which you pressure with your 2 stalkers and zealots
He shouldn't have enough to hold and your units will reinforce faster due to his delayed gates with the stargate.
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On June 05 2012 11:31 -MoOsE- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:16 Abusion wrote:
how do you deal against a phoenix 4 gate?
you just get absolutely raped I just beat a phoenix player in which you pressure with your 2 stalkers and zealots He shouldn't have enough to hold and your units will reinforce faster due to his delayed gates with the stargate.
You can't just pressure with your 2 zealots and stalkers because you have no idea what he's doing. Also, by the time warp gates finished he has 2-3 sentries and can warp more in if he wants to. You can't camp outside his base due to the phoenix picking off stuff once you retreat. I have no idea how to beat it...
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Hey, i was wondering if you know where there are any of Sase's replay's vods of this?
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@abusion if he warps in sentries he will delay his push by alot, so just warp in 1-2 sentries at his ramp to get your production up to 5 gates and you will outproduce him by alot ( double chrono on 5 gates instead of single chrono on 4 gates ).
@surili unfortunatly no, every player that is in korea shuts down and replay spread of his games, and so far he hasn't used this style other then on his own stream, which he doesn't save the VODS from.
If anyone finds and i'm happy to put them into the OP.
@moose you should have more units then him at his first warp in, and at his second warp in you STILL have more units then him since your last two stalkers finish up, and you warp in two more and he can only get 3 stalkers.
I can watch the replay if you want me to go over that game to see what went wrong?
@snively only things you have to scout for in PvP is proxy two gates, the next early game timing is 4 gate, and your scout is fast enough to catch that on all maps. You just have to convince your brain about these facts before it starts feeling natural.
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*bump* Would like to hear a blue poster's opinion on the viability of this strat.
Also, watched the replay on Antiga vs. blink...your opponent claimed that he "played like shit" and that the nexus should be impossible to hold. In the game on Shakuras your opponent also screwed up and allowed you to do more damage than you should have. How would this build work if your opponents hadn't made mistakes?
Also, do you have VODs of Sase doing the build himself?
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Hi everyone.
I'm a Platinium player and I love this build. But I always lost against 4g builds. I can't hold. Do you have tips or a replay against a 4g ? Because in the replay list, there isn't any one. I can post you some of my replays if you want to analyze.
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Against a 4 gate it's mostly about scouting and denying the probe/stalker/zealot that comes out to plant the proxy pylons. Once you kill that you should have put down your nexus and extra gateways and be able to hold at your natural's ramp because of the delay of the opponents units having to walk across the entire map.
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On August 15 2012 04:30 Eriatolc wrote:
Hi everyone.
I'm a Platinium player and I love this build. But I always lost against 4g builds. I can't hold. Do you have tips or a replay against a 4g ? Because in the replay list, there isn't any one. I can post you some of my replays if you want to analyze.
2Gate builds origin from the 3 Stalker Rush, which itself is designed to fend off 4Gates.
My guess is that you are not active, you want to scout your base + natural with your Zealot, then you place him at the ramp to your natural, patrol if it is a big ramp.
With 1 Zealot and 1 Stalkers you continue to scout around your base for proxy pylons, one stalker remains at the ramp to your natural. with 1 Zealot and 4 Stalkers you can now safely go and pressure your opponent, he will send out a zealot 1 or 2 stalkers and a probe, ez pz win for you, now you delay the 4Gate pretty damn long and are fine.
It might be a problem with your early build though, just check your timings and compare them to OPs (i.e. Minute X 3rd Stalker finishes) if your Stalker finishes later than his, practice against AI.
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Hi,
since I havent played in months and I need to get back on track, I searched for buildorders and found this gem. But since I only rely on supplycounts and I'm bad at using timestamps ingame I tried to shove this thing into a bo-planner:
Sase's PvP aggressive 2 Gate Expo.
I hope it kinda helps!
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Hi,
Thank you for the build! Seems very fun, I'll try that ASAP.
But i have two questions:
-When you put pressure with your 5 stalkers 2 zealots, if you can"t see phoenixes/immortals/etc. what makes you think your opponent has gone Blink, phoenix, DT or robo play? I have troubles reading my opponent's game plan and that often makes me lose!
- When do you decide to contain your opponent in his base by warping two sentries? Actually I watched only 3 of your replays, but in non of them you chosed to do it (while I think I would have tried to): against which strategies it would be a good/bad idea to contain, and when should I go back home when I do contain him?
Thanks,
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I've been watching his stream today and he does a similar build to this but has modified it a bit. He doesn't build the two opening zealots. Instead the build is:
13 gate
15 gas (2 on gas)
16 pylon
18 core
18 gas (2 on gas)
20 gate
then he makes 3/4 stalkers and proceeds from there
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EPT
