Okay, like i said before you do not get your stalkers lined up. your second gateway doesn't go down till your core is almost done. this build is not about getting 1 stalker faster then another.
Another note, and these are bumps that you might not see. you do not start a stalker on your first gateway for about 10 seconds. this is a HUGE bump. why put down the core faster if you cannot afford the stalker untill 10 seconds after the cyber core is done?
Pretty sure the stalkers lined up nicely. One good reason to put the cyber core down earlier would be because I get my warpgate done 10 seconds faster, thus giving me not one, but two units 10 seconds faster. At any rate, I am spennding as many minerals and getting many workers out as if I invert pylon and cybercore, since in both variations the stalker is built after both pylon and core, the timing at which I they start the stalker should be identical, but because cyber core finished way earlier, I still did not have that money yet. The bump is only appearent, but if you see the two variations side by side, pylon first is better. (Unless I am missing something, which wouldn't surprise me.)
At 5:45 my 4ty and 5th stalker are finishing, as is warpgate. I will have 45 second lead on your warpins- i'll get in two rounds before your first. Aggressive 3 gates are actually trickier than the outdated 4 gate style imo, as they can do 3 stalker pressure while getting up their pylon, and actually hit earlier. Check out adonmius' 11 gate stalker aggression for an example
Okay, like i said before you do not get your stalkers lined up. your second gateway doesn't go down till your core is almost done. this build is not about getting 1 stalker faster then another.
Another note, and these are bumps that you might not see. you do not start a stalker on your first gateway for about 10 seconds. this is a HUGE bump. why put down the core faster if you cannot afford the stalker untill 10 seconds after the cyber core is done?
Pretty sure the stalkers lined up nicely. One good reason to put the cyber core down earlier would be because I get my warpgate done 10 seconds faster, thus giving me not one, but two units 10 seconds faster. At any rate, I am spennding as many minerals and getting many workers out as if I invert pylon and cybercore, since in both variations the stalker is built after both pylon and core, the timing at which I they start the stalker should be identical, but because cyber core finished way earlier, I still did not have that money yet. The bump is only appearent, but if you see the two variations side by side, pylon first is better. (Unless I am missing something, which wouldn't surprise me.)
I will definatly go do some extensive testing again just to make sure i'm not making any mistakes, but i'm pretty sure there is a drawback with your arrangement of buildings. Also i'm 100% positive Sase also gets the third pylon before core.
As far as i can recall with my initial startup on figuring out the build, i had some weird bump with a core before pylon. so as soon as i can remember exactly what that bump was, i'll get back to you
On May 28 2012 08:39 quillian wrote: yeah I'm pretty sure cyber can go down before pylon.
I'm kind of dubious of the whole delayed cyber thing as a whole, as so much relies on warpgate timing in pvp.
I'm looking into a more standard 2 gate opening into early nexus that doesn't delay cyber at all. I'll post replays as I get them.
EDIT - Crappy VOD of build in YABOT. Same principle as Sase, but cuts 1 zealot to get much faster nexus and warpgate timing. This is very much a work in progress, feedback is appreciated. (uploading, should be live in 30 mins or so)
Your build does not hold an agressive 4-gate.
How do I know ? Cause I've done this build for a while in the past 6 months. However, if you replace your stalkers #4 and #5 by a sentry and a zealot, you can hold if you execute perfectly. But it's tough and you're in no better solution, as you're still on 1 gaz, no tech and no expo, and forced to warp more sentries to defend..
The problem is this: the 4-gating player will drop a pylon near your natural around 4'45, and then another pylon or two at your ramp around 5'. At this time, you only have a single zealot and stalker, so you won't have the dps to kill those pylons. Then around 5'15, your two additional stalkers will come out. You'll eventually kill one of the pylons, but he'll warp at the other at 5'45. A micro battle will take place, but assuming it's even on both sides, he'll reinforce with 4 gates and you're only on 2 gates. You can't warp sentries cause you don't have the gas to. You'll just lose.
On May 28 2012 08:39 quillian wrote: yeah I'm pretty sure cyber can go down before pylon.
I'm kind of dubious of the whole delayed cyber thing as a whole, as so much relies on warpgate timing in pvp.
I'm looking into a more standard 2 gate opening into early nexus that doesn't delay cyber at all. I'll post replays as I get them.
EDIT - Crappy VOD of build in YABOT. Same principle as Sase, but cuts 1 zealot to get much faster nexus and warpgate timing. This is very much a work in progress, feedback is appreciated. (uploading, should be live in 30 mins or so)
Your build does not hold an agressive 4-gate.
How do I know ? Cause I've done this build for a while in the past 6 months. However, if you replace your stalkers #4 and #5 by a sentry and a zealot, you can hold if you execute perfectly. But it's tough and you're in no better solution, as you're still on 1 gaz, no tech and no expo, and forced to warp more sentries to defend..
The problem is this: the 4-gating player will drop a pylon near your natural around 4'45, and then another pylon or two at your ramp around 5'. At this time, you only have a single zealot and stalker, so you won't have the dps to kill those pylons. Then around 5'15, your two additional stalkers will come out. You'll eventually kill one of the pylons, but he'll warp at the other at 5'45. A micro battle will take place, but assuming it's even on both sides, he'll reinforce with 4 gates and you're only on 2 gates. You can't warp sentries cause you don't have the gas to. You'll just lose.
Really? You tried this and died to 4 gate?
If he is 4 gating you just don't expand and add 2 gates instead. They will be done for you second round of warpins, and since you have more units in the early game you will stomp him. Old school 4 gates are really bad, I'd be more afraid of 8 or 10 gate all in.
You have 1 zealot 5 stalkers when he is attacking with his first warp in, and your warp ga tes finish soon after. You should outnumber him for the whole fight. I'd much prefer this to the super delayed warpgate.
Regarding this threads build, I looked at the numbers in the replays and all the stalkers finish 20 seconds later, warpgate is often a full minute later, and the nexus is delayed by 40 seconds. Your army is consistently smaller and economy is slower at the same time... I'm honestly amazed how far behind it seems in every way. Was this actually used in tourney play?
On May 29 2012 04:30 quillian wrote: Really? You tried this and died to 4 gate?
If he is 4 gating you just don't expand and add 2 gates instead. They will be done for you second round of warpins, and since you have more units in the early game you will stomp him. Old school 4 gates are really bad, I'd be more afraid of 8 or 10 gate all in.
You have 1 zealot 5 stalkers when he is attacking with his first warp in, and your warp ga tes finish soon after. You should outnumber him for the whole fight. I'd much prefer this to the super delayed warpgate.
Of course I don't expo when I scout a 4 gate. It doesn't matter, if you do that build, you'll just die. Also your 2 additional gates are too late to be in sync with warp finishing, meaning you'll still be on 2 gates at the critical time. You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ?
It's a matter of timings, really. You can claim that 1z and 5 stalkers can hold it, but in my experience it's just not true. You don't have enough dps to prevent the pylons from going up. He'll warp 4 units before you.. in fact probably before your stalkers 4 and 5 are out. Or around the same time, anyways. Then your warp will complete, you'll warp 2 more units while he'll warp 4 more. At this point you're just screwed.
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
As a matter of fact, I am!
1 zealot, 5 stalkers, and 4 gates at 6:00, with enough money to fund all 4! Magic!
As I was saying, the oldschool 1z 1 st 4 gate is just a bad build since the wg timing nerf. You can build more than 2 units before wg finishes and still get 4 gates up in time. I am FAR more worried by a 10 gate -> 4 gate that hits at like 5:20, or aggressive 3 gate or immortal timings than a paltry 6 units at my ramp at 5:45.
I will find and post some replays actually executing against an opponent and upload them later if I get a chance.
Just a quick update - been playing my variation all night and am loving it. You get a huge economic lead. No good 4 gate reps yet, I managed to kill his probe before he planted pylons both times, so it's not useful data.
As far as transitions I think getting an immediate robo followed by two more gates asap is ideal. You can get fast obs and immortals to defend just about any push. Most of the time if he went robo he will scout the nexus with his first obs and push immediately, thinking you recently expanded and he can punish it. However, the nexus is so early that you are starting to get saturated and have all 4 gates up plus a couple immortals by the time he hits. With more income and production plus defenders advantage, it's not hard to hold.
5 stalker opening into fast Blink might be a bit trickier, but I've yet to face it. I'll be sure to post when I do!
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
1 zealot, 5 stalkers, and 4 gates at 6:00, with enough money to fund all 4! Magic!
Thx. That's actually pretty nice, I stand corrected, it'll definitely handle 4 gate very well. However you do not scout at all, which I don't like. Can you still do the same build with a probe scouting at 13 ? I think that's the reason I've never been able to reach this kind of timings. Also I was taking a second gas around 5', which you don't.
Compared to the OP's build, note that you have to cut probes after 22, so it's not as economical, but safer. You can't expo as fast either, and since you're staying on a single gas, you're kindda forced into a fast expo. The good news is that you've already got your 4 gates, so after your expo you can dump all your income into more units, which should make your expo pretty damn safe.
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
1 zealot, 5 stalkers, and 4 gates at 6:00, with enough money to fund all 4! Magic!
Thx. That's actually pretty nice, I stand corrected, it'll definitely handle 4 gate very well. However you do not scout at all, which I don't like. Can you still do the same build with a probe scouting at 13 ? I think that's the reason I've never been able to reach this kind of timings. Also I was taking a second gas around 5', which you don't.
Compared to the OP's build, note that you have to cut probes after 22, so it's not as economical, but safer. You can't expo as fast either, and since you're staying on a single gas, you're kindda forced into a fast expo. The good news is that you've already got your 4 gates, so after your expo you can dump all your income into more units, which should make your expo pretty damn safe.
What are you worried about by not scouting and does scouting actually remedy this concern?
On May 29 2012 20:56 tuestresfat wrote: What are you worried about by not scouting and does scouting actually remedy this concern?
Cheeses. In particular proxy double gates. You can scout around your base but sometimes players hide the proxy around the third, or in the center of the map.. and without the info you can't react in time.
This build will NOT get countered by a 4-gate, even if you don't follow this up with gates. If you let the 4-gater set up multiple pylons close or at your base when using this build, you deserve to lose. Up untill warpgate completes(5.34-5.50 depending on how korean you are) this build will have 100% mapcontroll over a standard 1z1s 4gate. the fourgater will be forced to warp in at his own base unless he wants to basetrade in a very unfavorable position.
On May 29 2012 20:56 tuestresfat wrote: What are you worried about by not scouting and does scouting actually remedy this concern?
Cheeses. In particular proxy double gates. You can scout around your base but sometimes players hide the proxy around the third, or in the center of the map.. and without the info you can't react in time.
ah, kk makes sense just scout whenever you feel comfortable then, you'll have a few bumps if you try to follow this opening but it shouldn't be game changing.
If you aren't in masters or higher feel free to ignore everything below this:
You'd have to scout his base pretty early to see a proxy and be able to react in time, gateway scout at the latest especially since maps nowadays are only going to get larger and larger.
Ultimately it's your preference if you think it's worth it, but you'll note most pros are opting to scout very late or forego scouting altogether. Remember back when pylon scout was standard in all match-ups? Remember when terrans always scouted after depot? Remember when Zergs would drone scout in a ZvZ? That was when people didn't understand the game and didn't know how to scout properly.
Yes, by scouting earlier you will have an easier time vs proxies, but you are worst off vs everything else. If you know the PvT match-up at all, you'll know 1gate fe with gateway scout is the most common. If you gateway scout there is always the risk of terran fully walling and you can't get into his base. There is also the risk you see nothing and you're up against a proxy. Scouting on pylon will help remedy both of these, but alas it is not worth it. Why? Because it is possible to hold a proxy with a 1gate fe so you will do it regardless of what you see, and because you don't actually care what he's doing behind his wall. The idea behind this build is the same. The most economical build that is safe vs everything, that is the ideal 'standard' opener and as long as it is possible to hold something like a proxy, it is worth it. That's actually the reason nexus first isn't used more often than 1gate fe in PvT, it's because a nexus first is basically an insta loss vs a proxy bunker rush, while a 1gate fe can hold everything terran can try and throw at you. Sure, it isn't exactly better vs proxies than a 3gate opener, but it's more economical, and so it is the standard opener for that match-up. If it ever becomes remotely possible to hold a proxy with a nexus first, it will become the standard opening.
Same in PvP, who cares if he has 1gas you can hold a 4gate easily. Who cares if he has double gas early, your build doesn't skip any corners that leaves you vulnerable to anything. It is possible to hold a proxy 2 gate off 1gate->core.
If you need more examples, think back to when hatch first wasn't the standard in ZvT. Now? It's used literally every single game. Why? Because it is the most economical, and because it is safe vs everything. Yes it is harder to hold a proxy 11/11 bunker rush, you'd have a much easier time dealing with that if you opening pool first, but it is possible with a hatch first, so you should practice it.
The most economical opening that keeps you safe from everything. That should be the build you practice with, that should be the opening you refine. The more economical your openings the more options are available to you in the later stages of the game. If you open 3gate every game your options are far less than a player who opens nexus first every game and survives.
// this is highly exaggerated, after all we're only talking about a fucking probe scout.
Well I'm mid-masters, and I personally know for sure I can't hold a proxy 2 gates if I don't scout it in time. In fact, even if I scout it in time, I have trouble against it. Yeah the build is safe vs everything else, but am I ready to insta quit as soon as I see a proxy ?
It's like that famous cannon rush on Antiga.. you know, the one where he walls behind pylons under the ramp and makes a cannon there. If you patrol a probe here, you're safe, but if you don't you're in trouble. If you play greedy, you'll just lose to this kind of cheese
Maybe there are counters to those cheeses without scouting, but if so, I don't know them
On May 29 2012 21:40 Nyast wrote: Well I'm mid-masters, and I personally know for sure I can't hold a proxy 2 gates if I don't scout it in time. In fact, even if I scout it in time, I have trouble against it. Yeah the build is safe vs everything else, but am I ready to insta quit as soon as I see a proxy ?
It's like that famous cannon rush on Antiga.. you know, the one where he walls behind pylons under the ramp and makes a cannon there. If you patrol a probe here, you're safe, but if you don't you're in trouble. If you play greedy, you'll just lose to this kind of cheese
Maybe there are counters to those cheeses without scouting, but if so, I don't know them
I heard a caster/pro say that chronoing a stalker and base trading with all your probes against a proxy 2 gate is the last resort counter to it. Naniwa vs Huk from the last MLG was an example of how its supposed to work in theory, though its nerve wracking and Naniwa slipped up at the end and lost.
PS: That can be done without scouting, and with the rising number of 2 player maps in the pool. proxy gates are a greater threat than they were before, especially if people proxy them in the non obvious locations (for ex near the third at Ohana and Daybreak)
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
1 zealot, 5 stalkers, and 4 gates at 6:00, with enough money to fund all 4! Magic!
Thx. That's actually pretty nice, I stand corrected, it'll definitely handle 4 gate very well. However you do not scout at all, which I don't like. Can you still do the same build with a probe scouting at 13 ? I think that's the reason I've never been able to reach this kind of timings. Also I was taking a second gas around 5', which you don't.
Compared to the OP's build, note that you have to cut probes after 22, so it's not as economical, but safer. You can't expo as fast either, and since you're staying on a single gas, you're kindda forced into a fast expo. The good news is that you've already got your 4 gates, so after your expo you can dump all your income into more units, which should make your expo pretty damn safe.
Thanks nyast! I'm glad you like it =). I've had a lot of fun with your pvz stuff so I'm glad I can return the favor.
Couple quick notes: 1. Probe cut and 4 gate is ONLY in the case of a 4 gate or other warpgate all in. Against any tech build I do the 5:30 expo off 2 gates, which only cuts probes for a few seconds while the nexus goes up. Against a 4 gate, the probe cut isn't a big deal - he will also have 22 probes, and you will have a bigger army with equal production. Once you crush his force you can do whatever you want and be ahead.
2. As tuestresfat said scouting early will create slight bumps in the build, but you shouldn't need to do a full scout of your opponents base. I normally do the following scouting:
13 gate- check for proxies and cannon cheese at natural. a quick run around near your base can confirm this, then you can come back to mine. If he has proxied farther away than your natural, I don't think you have to worry. You will have 2 gates up pretty quick, and with his travel time you should be able to hold.
21 gate - 2nd scout to the watchtower to check for incoming probe/proxy pylons, check his spawn position on 4 player maps.
First zealot - chase probe, check third and watch tower. First stalker + zealot - watchtower, then his natural. Try to get a unit count by dancing around at his ramp. Treat this like pvt -- you can judge a LOT from what units he has.
Mini-push 3-5 stalkers - I rarely commit to this attack like the OP, as you aren't trying to do damage, but rather keep him feeling defensive while the nexus goes up. I will just camp out at his natural for a bit and see if he pushes down with mostly zealots, stalkers, or immortals. You should be able to tell if he is saving gas or did a normal robo build from the unit comp.
Hope this helps! I have been having a blast with this so far, the extreme econ advantage and high unit count early game really throw people off. I expect we might see some new/more all ins if people start figuring it out, though, as you get almost no sentries early game and a somewhat later robo. You can get an obs in time for dt, but it can be close, and 5 stalker into blink timing is worrying.
I guess we will just have to wait and see how things evolve!
Sorry for double post, I had someone PM me about the 8/10 gate timings I have referenced twice, so I thought I'd clarify.
Basically because we have no sentries and don't scout much I'm concerned about super aggressive warpgate cheese, like the optimized korean 4 gate or 10 gate stalker. I just haven't had games against these and don't know how it would work.
Here's the builds if anyone wants to test them out: 10 gate > stalker rush + Show Spoiler +
On May 29 2012 23:51 quillian wrote: Hope this helps! I have been having a blast with this so far, the extreme econ advantage and high unit count early game really throw people off. I expect we might see some new/more all ins if people start figuring it out, though, as you get almost no sentries early game and a somewhat later robo. You can get an obs in time for dt, but it can be close, and 5 stalker into blink timing is worrying.
If you see somebody tech, I wonder what is better: the 5'30 expo, or the 4-gate and push with 3z 7st and only drop a nexus reactively when you force a ton of sentry ?
A 4-gate push like that can be devastating versus a ton of builds. First of all, I doubt greedy twilight builds (blink/dts) can hold... in the worst case he'd have to warp tons of sentries reactively. Since it's one of the standard builds, that's already a ton of "freewins" you may get from that. You're also in great shape against stargate play. You can probably hold and counter all 4-gate variants, including the 4 gate prism which is always annoying ( since you'll hit him earlier ). You'll get an insta win versus any forms of expo before yours.
What does that leave ? Well, I can think of robo play and 2-gas 4-gates slow tech variants ( like 3 gate robo blink ). Your tech will be delayed by a lot, especially as you don't have a second gas for so long, so maybe one-base colossi or some blink timings may be more tricky than if you expoed at 5:30. I don't know for sure, but I'll definitely try on ladder.
EPT
