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Lower masters.
I open most of my games hatch first, and it doesn't matter how huge a macro lead I have in the early game, I lose to muta.
When I go muta myself, I can do half decently, but I stopped doing that. I guess I figured 'macro play' is better, but I can't defend muta worth shit.
I try to reactively go muta, but usually I've taken my gas or lair too late to really be in the game against it.
Here I go muta, but by the time I figure out, it's too late really. I still try. The game is basically just me being so far behind in gas I can't catch up. There's also him taking his third. Normally you can deny that with roaches I guess, but in this game I can't. I guess it doesn't matter right, just go 2base muta fast third right?
http://drop.sc/175596
I don't know if my macro was a bit spotty, I was sort of behind for a second there in drones at the start, but then I was always slightly ahead. He took his fast third, but by that point it was too late for me to transition into roach/ling all-in. I mean I went hatch first anywaus.
It's just like zvz is about the opponent blindly doing things, and you can't really punish it because you either set up to roach/ling all-in at like 30 supply, or you didn't.
http://drop.sc/175597
Again, I go muta, but i'm sorta just too late as I reactively go mutas. I then lose a few too many mutas, but it doesnt matter I was behind in muta count anyways and he then overwhelms me right away.
http://drop.sc/175599
Here, I try to defend muta. He goes fast third and muta, but it's such a long map so I can't really punish it. I defend, get infestors out, get more drones (i mean not a lot more, but you know), with mostly queens. Then I'm just stuck on 3 base as he takes a 4th and goes ultra/muta and I just slowly die out as I cant take a fourth, cant ever attack him.
Ugh. I always lose to muta when I try to defend against it with infestor play, and whenever I go muta myself, it's just a sloppy reaction.
I guess I'll just go back to 2base muta like I used to. I was good at that. im also just fine when it's 3 base roach vs 2/3base roach. It's just fighting mutas, and defending with infestors or reactively going muta (ie its too late to go muta, I made too many roaches, whatever).
Thanks. I've watched the reps, I'm not really sure what's wrong. We're around each other in drones, I feel I may be slightly ahead because of my opening but not always but I still wish I could manifest that lead somehow... i dont know.
and a question - do these games just look stupid? like im just an idiot, like making stupidly bad mistakes or something? like you get when you watch like some bronze or diamond game sometimes? I feel like I'm doing okay, you know... jut wondering if I make any obvious problems.
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Mid Masters EU.
Depending on your opponent there's more ways to tackle this. Vs 14/14 doing a 11 min~ +1 roach push works wonders. It'll outright kill him if he's gone for a third. ( Assuming he didn't spine up on two bases. If he did, you should've scouted it and just sit on your ass and mass up that roach/hydra ball) If his mutas are attacking your roaches, he's not attacking your base and you will still do damage.If he is attacking your base, feel free to overreact with spores as he will lose absolutely everything in his base to your roaches. When I push out I generally add either an infestation pit or Hydra Den, depending on the map and what my further goals are.
Vs 15 hatch its more or less the same deal, except his mutas can come faster and in higher numbers. This is where you need to scout excellently with your lings. If you see him turtling up and getting early gasses, get your third asap and go with a roach/hydra army. Adding infestors on two base is not a solution to muta play, imo.
Note: Trying to go reactive mutas will only lose you games. His spire has been up longer, he's got an upgrade advantage, and he's likely got a muta advantage aswell. If you insist on getting a spire, corrupters are far better for their cost at dealing with mutas in a straight up fight.
~ Xana.
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Honestly you did everything right on daybreak for the first half but you were kinda behind after his allin. usually you dont want to get 30 infestors either. after you got 10 or so i woulda switched to hydras so you could move out on the map. also, in that game you could have taken your 4th way sooner if you secured it with queens and infestors. and another thing to note is if they keep making mutas after you get infestors they will delay their own infestors so you can sometimes do a roach queen infestor push when they do not get a lot of spines.
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I know you can do a cute 2 base all-in with roach/queen/infestor, but they just base trade you. By the time I had infestors, since I was playing macro 3 base, there was no way to get queens over that far on daybreak. I had barely any ground army that game too. I may have lost too many roaches but he took a ridiculous third, I thought I'd do more damage thatn that.
But i don't know if that lost me the game though. I just couldnt get queens that far, and from what I understand hydras aren't good against mutas at all due to speedbanes, and if you go roach/hydra/infestor, by the time you push they have either ultras or they just bumrush with 200/200 ling/bane/muta and your army is too small.
I may have ramped up the infestors in preparation for the ultras.
Xana, sorry, but your post is not helpful at all. Please watch the replays. And from what I understand, no one gets hydras against muta play, it's all about infestor (even 2 base infestor). I mean I'd love to be proven wrong. I don't even know what pro players do, there are so few ZvZ series... but i just understood hydras as bad against mutas, you need infestors or queens.
maybe i'll try fast third before lair into roach/hydra?
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ok I watched a few, and I'm mainly talking about the daybreak game where he took fast 3rd before lair and you went infestor (you top right, him bottom left).
The most important detail that I picked up on was that you were floating massive amounts of gas while you were establishing your 3rd base.
It's counter-intuitive, you think "I need infestors fast to stop mutalisks, so I need all my gas", but in reality what you need in the short-term are queens, spores, drones, and roaches. Infestors come later.
Queens and spores chase away the mutalisks on their first few attempts while the count is still small. Drones are drones. Roaches stop him from running in with zerglings and killing your anti-air, which stops him fromending the game with 10 mutalisks.
A trick that I've picked up from stephano's zvz is that he takes a very fast 3rd base, and he stays on 3 geysers until he has full mineral saturation at all 3 bases. 3 geysers gets you lair, +1, roach speed, and comfortable roach production capability, while still allowing you to drone up your 3rd base. After that, you take all 6 geysers and get infestors out.
Staying on low gas allows you to drone up faster, OR it allows you to put the hurt back on him by massing roaches and rallying towards his expansions before his mutalisks are out, or while his mutalisks are out of position. This often forces him to make lings and spines instead of drones and he can't saturate either.
Also, I always send an overlord or two to my 3rd base and drop creep as soon as lair finishes. This allows me to start spores before the hatchery finishes if the guy went very fast mutalisk.
If they guy stays on mutalisks and you've already established a 3 base economy, it is a good idea to add hydralisks after infestors. not before.
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On May 10 2012 04:55 Belial88 wrote:
Xana, sorry, but your post is not helpful at all. Please watch the replays. And from what I understand, no one gets hydras against muta play, it's all about infestor (even 2 base infestor). I mean I'd love to be proven wrong. I don't even know what pro players do, there are so few ZvZ series... but i just understood hydras as bad against mutas, you need infestors or queens.
It all depends on how you play. Hydra+Roach can beat Roach Infestor assuming decent control, and early in the game Roach/Hydra is definitively the way to deal with Muta play. Naturally, if his muta numbers spiral out of control, you'll lose. The whole point of the early Hydra vs Muta build is to bring the noise to him earlier than he's comfortable with. ZvZ, for me at least, merely comes down to controlling expansions. Going Mutalisks he's aiming to pin you back while he's taking his third, denying you yours. Thats when things get impossible, as he'll be able to drown you in almost whatever unit he so chooses. Since you've got the upgrades for the Roach push early, 2/1 Hydras absolutely rip apart any kind of Mutalisk he can have at that point in time. Forcing him to deal with your army lets you secure a third before he can secure his. Then its just a matter of constantly tossing roach/hydra at his face.
I did watch your first replay, and the only thing I can hint you towards is watching for differentials between you and your opponent. Playing ZvZ that way is really simple, tbh. He gets more gas than you, so he'll have more tech/gas heavy units than you. If you strike his face with mineral heavy burrow roaches as he's doing this, he can only reliably defend it with spines. In case he is matching your roach numbers, he's behind you in worker count and you can translate this into a third base.
Allowing a player who's rushing for Mutas to have a third base before his mutas are on the map is horrendously bad play. In my past 14 ZvZ's I've done the same 15 hatch into 10-11min +1 roach push, and never once have I been behind on my third, or lost to Mutas.
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^ Can you provide a rep? What you say is a lot different than what I understand, and it sounds very interesting.
I do recall when going 2 base muta, to have trouble with fast third defense into just straight roach/hydra.
I don't really understand your 10-11 minute +1 roach push. Is this on hatch tech? Isn't that kind of all-innish? I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Do you just mass 2 base lair roaches vs anyone you see going spire?
Thanks oboeman. So basically I'm taking 4+ gases too quickly, and I'm getting infestors too quickly, and I should rely a little more on spores, and the queens I'm making, a little longer, and get some roaches up? So third into drones/spores/queens into lair/roaches into full saturation into infestors into hydras. got it.
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On May 10 2012 05:44 Belial88 wrote:
^ Can you provide a rep? What you say is a lot different than what I understand, and it sounds very interesting.
I do recall when going 2 base muta, to have trouble with fast third defense into just straight roach/hydra.
I don't really understand your 10-11 minute +1 roach push. Is this on hatch tech? Isn't that kind of all-innish? I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Do you just mass 2 base lair roaches vs anyone you see going spire?
Thanks oboeman. So basically I'm taking 4+ gases too quickly, and I'm getting infestors too quickly, and I should rely a little more on spores, and the queens I'm making, a little longer, and get some roaches up? So third into drones/spores/queens into lair/roaches into full saturation into infestors into hydras. got it.
I think it is lair tech. At 11 min or so roach speed and +1 finish at around the same time. Though I think it is better against a fast third than 2 base muta with a lot of spines up front.
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When I go muta the biggest problem I have is super greedy fast 3rd base into roach/hydra. Massive speed roach attacks only work if you take a 3rd and skimp on spines/lines, otherwise it actually gives you the game.
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i had the same problem for as long time until i started going quick third in zvz also. stay on one gas, have both roach and baneling tech. generally 3 banes and like 12 lings are enough to defend the 3rd hatch building and the roaches should stay in the natural. make sure you prepare migration-spores in your natural so you have them in your third asap. if he does an allin, just cancel and mass roaches/morph extra banes.
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You can't commit to pure hydra against muta because then you arent representing any offensive ability, so they can expand freely behind the mutas., build a production round of hydra when you first scout muta and use them in combination with spores to defend muta pokes. From there you should focus on infestors and roaches, moving out when you have ~8 infestors.
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On May 10 2012 04:55 Belial88 wrote:
And from what I understand, no one gets hydras against muta play, it's all about infestor (even 2 base infestor). I mean I'd love to be proven wrong. I don't even know what pro players do, there are so few ZvZ series... but i just understood hydras as bad against mutas, you need infestors or queens.
I'm not sure if he uses the same strategy, but I watched a bunch of Ret's stream vods several months ago and he was using hydras as his main muta repellent.
His strategy went like this:
1). Super quick third.
2). Fast creep spread to third and overlord creep between the natural and third (the rally point).
3). Hydra den immediately after lair. Prepare for mutas with extra queens and a couple spores at each base.
4). Make a lot of hydras. He had upwards of 20-25
5). Make infestors and replace dead drones. At this point he's spending all his gas on infestors and upgrades.
6). After about 8-10 infestors he quickly maxed on roaches and attacked/expanded.
In most of the vods I saw his opponents went muta/ling/bane. Ret positioned hydras in the middle of the roaches and had infestors fungal flanking lings and banelings. The composition also worked pretty well against roach balls because Ret had more army supply that wasn't tied up in mutas.
I played around with this strategy, but due to bad mechanics I could never clean it up and ultimately pitched it to focus on macro. Sorry I can't give you a specific date for the vods (I could never find any replays).
I am very interested to find out if any of this works since I 15 hatch every zvz and run into the "crap, what do I do next?!" feeling of not having a solid build order. I'm only going to be able to outmacro opponents for so long, so if there are any pro replays you find to help you out please share!
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On May 10 2012 05:50 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 05:44 Belial88 wrote:
^ Can you provide a rep? What you say is a lot different than what I understand, and it sounds very interesting.
I do recall when going 2 base muta, to have trouble with fast third defense into just straight roach/hydra.
I don't really understand your 10-11 minute +1 roach push. Is this on hatch tech? Isn't that kind of all-innish? I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Do you just mass 2 base lair roaches vs anyone you see going spire?
Thanks oboeman. So basically I'm taking 4+ gases too quickly, and I'm getting infestors too quickly, and I should rely a little more on spores, and the queens I'm making, a little longer, and get some roaches up? So third into drones/spores/queens into lair/roaches into full saturation into infestors into hydras. got it. I think it is lair tech. At 11 min or so roach speed and +1 finish at around the same time. Though I think it is better against a fast third than 2 base muta with a lot of spines up front.
I doubt that. Going 3 base roach will beat 2 base roach - of course, you have to hold the aggression, but there is no reason you can't be able to hold (whereas roach/ling will own fast third).
When I go muta the biggest problem I have is super greedy fast 3rd base into roach/hydra. Massive speed roach attacks only work if you take a 3rd and skimp on spines/lines, otherwise it actually gives you the game.
yea same here. hm... why dont I ever see pros do that?
i had the same problem for as long time until i started going quick third in zvz also. stay on one gas, have both roach and baneling tech. generally 3 banes and like 12 lings are enough to defend the 3rd hatch building and the roaches should stay in the natural. make sure you prepare migration-spores in your natural so you have them in your third asap. if he does an allin, just cancel and mass roaches/morph extra banes.
What all-in? Muta play is obviuos by 4 gas and spines, there's no transition into an all-in from that. Do you mean ling/bane/muta all-in?
You can't commit to pure hydra against muta because then you arent representing any offensive ability, so they can expand freely behind the mutas., build a production round of hydra when you first scout muta and use them in combination with spores to defend muta pokes. From there you should focus on infestors and roaches, moving out when you have ~8 infestors.
So infestors, or hydras first?
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watched the first game and i really dont understand your overall goal in zvz, you say you try go to muta "reactively"? whats the purpose of that? if he goes mutas first, he gets a free third while denying yours - it's as simple as that.
most players going muta dont have the intention of committing to it too hardcore anyways. they get mutas to get a safe third, so they get economically ahead and switch into infestor/roach tech. getting a spire "reactively" to counter his mutas is pointless if you realize the overall goal of his build.
in the first game he actually came out ahead against your hatch first. you gathered a _1000_ gas before you dropped your spire. at this point his mutas already hatched and the game is pretty much over.
if you want to reactively do something about mutas, get infestors not mutas.
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hey belial
oboeman is right.
the reason people go 2 base muta is to deny the third base from going up.
and on 2 base infestor you cannot trade effectively against properly microed 2 base muta,
so you need to get that third up and spore it up before mutas are at your third.
technically you can just have overlords there and start spewing creep as soon as you have lair and then drop spores while the third is being built. and then just make an extra queen or two. but during all of this you have to tech to infestors and make them BEFORE hydras. cause hydras are only good against mutas when there are infestors so you can outrange them.
you should be getting ranged ups. and you will probably need roaches against mutaling players because lings will be streaming in at all times.
if you do this properly you should have 3 bases before he does and an upgrade advantage and a superior army comp infestor roach hydra to his muta ling bane.
once yo uhave spores at your third you should be fine. just constantly be checking his flock, if he has alot you have to make sure you arent vulnerable anywhere because spores die pretty fast to 15+ mutas.
hope this helps
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watched the first game and i really dont understand your overall goal in zvz, you say you try go to muta "reactively"? whats the purpose of that? if he goes mutas first, he gets a free third while denying yours - it's as simple as that.
I believe that whoever goes mutas later, is ahead (as long as you defend adequately). So like, if you go super fast 35 supply lair, and I go 50 supply lair, I'll win, because I'll hold off your puny 6 mutas with maybe an extra queen or two and a spore or two, and then I'll pump out 13 mutas instantly and just overwhelm you. Now obviously I have to defend in order to get that lead, but it's not hard to defend 6 mutas.
But the problem with 'reactive' mutas, like going mutas as a reaction to scouting he's going mutas, is I may have started my roach warren already, or made some roaches already, or I wasn't mining more than 1 geyser for a long time while he mined 2, and I wasn't mining 4 gas for a long time. So either because of lack of gas or because I've spent too much gas, it doesnt work too well because I can't get that many mutas out, and they might be TOO late (I mean, 35 supply lair vs 45 supply lair good, but 30 supply lair vs 55 supply lair, that's kind of cutting it and the 35er may end up with more mutas simply because he's been building them for so long).
in the first game he actually came out ahead against your hatch first. you gathered a _1000_ gas before you dropped your spire. at this point his mutas already hatched and the game is pretty much over.
yea I think I forget my spire too long sometimes. But i didnt realize i did it that game too. Thanks.
Do you think if I didn't forget it so long I would have been okay? I mean I felt like I lost after I had sunk all that gas into mutas and he simply had way more because he had beening mining more for longer i think.
Thanks mooseman. I think I just get infestors too fast, or make too many spores, or something, that I just dont get enough drones.
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hey belial also
if you think you are not getting your gas at the right timings or what not i find its very useful to just use gas a timer.
what i mean is just take a a gas and then when you hit 100 spend it and then hit a 100 spend it. once you hit a certain point you drop ur other gases if you need them. but your gas should definitely determine ur lair timing which should determine ur infestation pit timing.
hope that made sense
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Muta needs to do damage to be effective.
A fast 6:30 to 7 :30 third base with spores in time and queen production from all hatches, atleast 2 spores per base.. and you start to deny the ability for him to do damage, and his economy wont be in any type of lead because of your equal or faster third base.
This is why pro's tend not to do mutalisks as much anymore, because if they fail to do any damage (more than killing a few overlords) they have an extremely hard time dealing with like 10 queens/ roaches/infestor push
Queens are less expensive and more effective than hydralisks, for sure.
The strength in mutalisk builds is to do early damage to economy, queens, etc. and to deny a third base.
If you prepare with extra queens, spores, and a fast third, they cannot do any of the above.. and their investment is wasted.
Muta vs Muta, it can come down to the upgrades.. and I'd suggest playing defensive as possible in muta vs muta because a lot of times the guy who attacks is the guy who loses his mutas first
Always get +1 carapace right away if you think you're going muta vs muta-- the next upgrade can be situational--> +1 attack finishes faster than +2 carapace, and costs less gas, but I believe 0/2 mutas win against 1/1 mutas.. Just food for thought.
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If you have the economic advantage like you say, you can go queen-roach-infestor on a nydus worm (or overlord with speed and transport tech), and it should be no problem. Ensure you have +1 or +2 ranged attack to 2-shot zerglings with roaches.
You can also get hydralisks instead of queens with infestors (or in addition), but it requires specific timing, and specific positioning and micromanagement. I don't like them for anything, personally.
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On May 10 2012 07:31 Xapti wrote:
If you have the economic advantage like you say, you can go queen-roach-infestor on a nydus worm (or overlord with speed and transport tech), and it should be no problem. Ensure you have +1 or +2 ranged attack to 2-shot zerglings with roaches.
This guy speaks truth.. Nydus worm with queens/roach/infestor is so god damn strong vs mutas... especially when they're right in your face.
The only problem is getting vision to do it, and only very very good zerg players deny complete scouting of the map with mutas
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On May 10 2012 05:50 MstrJinbo wrote:
Show nested quote +
I think it is lair tech. At 11 min or so roach speed and +1 finish at around the same time. Though I think it is better against a fast third than 2 base muta with a lot of spines up front.
I doubt that. Going 3 base roach will beat 2 base roach - of course, you have to hold the aggression, but there is no reason you can't be able to hold (whereas roach/ling will own fast third).
I never said it beats 3 base roach. You asked if the 10-11 min +1 roach timing was a lair tech timing attack and I said it probably was. No need to read too closely into it. Like all timing attacks if you scout it coming you can take steps to defend yourself.
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Well, first of all, extreme amounts of respect to you for the great ZvP guide. You saved my laddering. But you are such an awesome theorycrafter yet you have problems with muta?
High diamond here, so it is more about theorycraft and tournament matches than having the MMR to support it. Also general discussion about defending mutas. Not about specific flaws in the replays.
The reasoning behind mutas is first and foremost to take a safe third and deny the opponent's third through a muta/ling composition. Now, I will be talking about defending mutalisks as a non muta player, because I have some serious issues when I am caught in a muta vs muta situation.
Personal experience as a muta player:
+ Show Spoiler +This is how ZvZ works for me: If I survive the early game and go muta, then (except from when matched with a masters player that will counter me with the style that I describe below) I almost never lose. Not because of godly micro/mechanics but because the opponent does not know how to respond. Rush for hydralisks simply cannot keep the third from being denied for a long period of time. A roach attack always crashes onto a wall of spines and mutas clean it up. Infestors cannot kill spread out mutalisks that are denying the third and I almost always snipe 3-4 infestors as well as the third.
Then I transition into roach/hydra/infestor and at some point let my mutas die to free up supply. I deny his fourth or even the third, while I take 2-3 extra bases and spine them up. From there ther is no turning back. Does it sould familiar? Horrible as Khaldor would say.
Discussing the build:
+ Show Spoiler +
When the muta production starts is when the opponent will take his third. Your goal is to get a third not too far behind him and to take a faster fourth or do a 200 army roach/hydra/infestor +2range, while the opponent is stuck on 170 supply and with +2 not even done.
The standard defense is as follows (GSL code S games): First you scout muta. Then make 2 spores at each base, touching the hatchery. 5 queens off of 2 bases. Creep connecting the expansions and spreading towards the 3rd at a really fast rate. At this point the mutas will arrive but will be unable to do any damage. When at lair, start infestation pit and +2 range upgrade asap. And most importantly, burrow. I cannot stress how easy it is to lose the whole muta flock to a few burrowed infestors. Or how important it is to keep the infestors from being sniped.
The burrow upgrade is what makes this queen infestor composition work. The muta player cannot really engange your bases when he does not know if he will be chain fungaled into gg at any point in time. You should be macroing while constantly repositioning your infestor/queen army to deal with his harassment before any damage is dealt. The queens provide enough dps to kill fungaled mutalisks and through transfuse they can guarantee your spores shall be alive until the infestors arrive to save the day (if you have forgoten to reposition them after a poke at another base).
So, you sit on 3 bases, have taken minimal loses (6 spores, 2 extra queens, some overlord snipes), have a faster saturation than him (lings take double the larvae roaches do, so even if you have the same army supply as your opponent, you have more larvae available for drones, while you may choose to depend on infestor/spine with a few roaches for defense and go for an even faster 3base saturation) and now you have the gas needed to start hydra production. After 6-8 infestors, the rest of the gas should be spent to roach hydra to allow you to go for a fast killing blow.
Or you might add a few spores to your existing bases, add a few spines to catch runbys and proceed to take a 4th uncontested. He cannot deny you the 4th with his weaker army, while if he takes a fourth before fully transitioning into roach/infestor (where he is behind in both supply and tech/upgrades because of the investment into mutas), you can deny it easily. Then proceed to kill him in the late game by a stream of better upgraded roaches.
To sum up, in my experience, mutas only win because there are too many improper responses in dealing with them. You just need to stay calm, defend with 2-3 spores per base/5 queens and great creep spread towards the third to allow spores and queens to keep the hatch alive for the small window of time he has mutas but you don't have infestors yet. When at lair, go infestor, take your upgrades (REMEMBER BURROW), grab hydras and the either push with roach/hydra/infestor or take a fourth. This response simply puts the muta player in a huge tech/upgrade disadvantage, oppens an enormous expanding/attacking window and forces him to play under the threat of you moving out to outright kill him.
Hope that this helps!
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Thanks oboeman. So basically I'm taking 4+ gases too quickly, and I'm getting infestors too quickly, and I should rely a little more on spores, and the queens I'm making, a little longer, and get some roaches up? So third into drones/spores/queens into lair/roaches into full saturation into infestors into hydras. got it.
well you're taking some of the gases, too early. I usually have 1 drone mining gas for the longest time, then I resaturate that geyser and take a second geyser, and then take a 3rd geyser a bit later. i just want more minerals for more drones.
When you're doing this it's important to make a 3rd queen early so she can walk to the 3rd and inject as soon as it finishes (otherwise you will be floating minerals) and it's also important to not let it get sniped. Have a baneling guarding it in advance. When taking a fast 3rd you are almost always mineral starved, so even if you took your gas too soon, pull drones off gas to get minerals again. I would not be opposed to taking 4 gas for a timely lair, +1, and roach speed, and then pulling 1-2 drones out of some of those geysers until you have 60 drones.
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I already stated that the +1 roach attack is designed against a 14/14.
If you've hatch first and see your opponent doing anything but +1 ling all in, you won't need to take your gas and you can rely on 4 queens instead. Because of the mineral heavy layout and skipping ling speed, you'll always be ahead in economy. If you then take three gas, get lair and +1 ranged, a roach push leaving your base at 9 min while you take your third -cannot- die. If he has the same amount of roaches as you, he's cut drones. If he has a lot of spines, you'll get to freely deny his third, and then run him over with the followup roach/hydra. If he's done the exact same as you, no biggie, you can just turn around and walk home.
As you switch into hydras, you'll spend more gas, and have more minerals left over to drone up the third. It all plays out extremely neat.
Against a 15 hatch, the same principles apply. If he starts spining up and taking a lot of gas, take your third and turtle up, gearing up only to attack into his third a few minutes later. Mutas in ZvZ are, imo, very hard to make work vs a player that knows how to deal with it.
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Well, first of all, extreme amounts of respect to you for the great ZvP guide. You saved my laddering. But you are such an awesome theorycrafter yet you have problems with muta?
Well I thought I understood it, I even have a ZvZ guide written out in entirety. I 'knew' the match-up. This was back before people started making roach/infestor/queen, and ling/bane/muta into ultra not working due to lots of infestors. Mutas are just played differently now. And I guess I never really caught up, and I've been thoroughly confused on the match-up.
Really, my macro just goes to shit when fighting mutas. I don't make drones, I tend to just sort of freeze up, and I panic. But then, like I am acutely aware of this panic-
I make spores only when their spire pops - a 100% done spire making mutas right away = spore is up in time if the mutas go straight to your base, on smaller maps.
But queens, aren't like that. You can't just make a bunch of queens at once like with spores or with larva-made units. So making 6 queens takes a really long time, and seems to really hurt your econ. A lot. It really kills your econ.
Then getting infestors really hurts your econ too.
Then getting a faster lair really hurts your econ too.
So I'm trying to balance making queens, spores (i make very few spores generally, if anything I think I make too few spores and end up relying on much costlier queens, or at least, a lower cost early on whereas spores allow you to drone up and then pay a higher cost later, which comes out to a smaller cost I guess overall), and making really really fast lair after third and taking lots of gas quickly.
Like... aren't you supposed to time it where you infestors pop when his mutas pop? Or something? 6 queens can only really deal with like, what, 10 or so mutas? After that you need infestors I guess. It's just with mutas, it gets out of control so quickly, and they are so fast, not like voids or banshees, so you really have to cover everything and everywhere.
Maybe I should just view it like stargate - 'counter' mutas with drones.
But how much do you drone too?
And what about super fast lair, like 35 supply lair muta? You can't take a third against mutas that fast can you? Do you go 50 supply later lair infestors against that?
There's just really no replays or vods of it. Pro zvz going into mid-game is so rare, so I can't see examples of it. Nestea going mutas for a while and showing off how 'great' mutas were, were the only time there was a lot of vods on the subject. But now that is sort of outdated...
burrow.
Yea. I know, NEED burrow with infestors. But yet another expensive tech that hurts your econ.
So... what's the concensus about hydras vs mutas? I never see people use hydras against mutas.
First game I've found in like a month where someone went mutas, and the other defended and came out ahead against them:
http://sc2casts.com/cast8430-viOlet-vs-Delphi-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-EG-Masters-Cup-Alternate-Attax-vs-Empire
Violet vs delphi
Standard fast third ~45
Standard fast third lair ~55
Infestors off 4 gas (so that's more mineral saturation)
drones to about 75, then gets infestors, while making about 5 queens and about 1-2 spores per base
Adds hydras after infestors, +2, burrow. Not too many infestors
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So this is just my take on things...
You tend to open hatch first, but I noticed you never actually got ahead in economy by opening this way. It seems that you didn't get enough injects out early enough to match ling numbers or take advantage of the faster hatchery. I think there should be another look at these zerg openings, I honestly don't feel like hatch first puts a player ahead at all against an aggressive pool first opening.
In a few of your games you lost a number of overlords. If you're not going mutalisk then I would be much more conservative about spreading overlords out without speed. Losing those, making extra queens and placing down spores is a giant hit to your economy.
Creep spread is another thing that I think is underutilized with ground based strategies. At the very least you want all of your bases covered in creep. Mutalisk are very mobile and it's hard to match that with ground units. Also with all your overlord vision gone a good amount of creep spread could save you from counterattacks as well as help you match the mutalisk mobility.
I really think late mutalisk is a bad choice also. He is going to have better upgrades and more mutalisk than you do. Its better to force him to transition back to a ground army by massing up a sizable army with decent upgrades and putting pressure on his bases.
As far as hydra against mutalisk goes I always have a handful of them in my composition anyways. From what I've seen they are very helpful in dealing with split mutalisk. I would shy away from massing up too many though since they get pretty easily owned by roach infestor.
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If you scout a fast lair, make a fast third to spore it up before mutas come. You can't really take a 4th without being behind because he'd have map control + a faster 4th, so just max out on 3 base with roach hydra 6~ infestors and a few blings vs muta ling bling
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On May 10 2012 07:52 Notfragile wrote:To sum up, in my experience, mutas only win because there are too many improper responses in dealing with them.
In other words: Hydralisks suck.
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I play almost exclusively muta in ZvZ so here's some things that I find effective;
As someone stated, fast thirds. Another thing that works is just throwing all your stuff at the opponent to force the mutas back to defend if for some reason you didn't scout them in time. Ling runbys towards the muta player's third sometimes force him to go back, keep in mind getting that spire and mutas out is a huge investement so he won't have that many defences outside his natural.
If you do end up stuck on 2 base, your best bet is roach infestor queen imo, hydras never work unless you have at least a 3 base economy backing it up, and even then moving out against a muta player without infestors is always gambling.
You also stated you needed 6 queens, 4 is enough to repel the first mutas with 1/2 spores at each base assuming you have at least a transfuse.
Forcing an overseer into his base after you see the mutas is also great, again if he really wants to kill it he has to pull back, and it allows you to adapt for the rest of the game. Does he keep making mutas? Is he researching baneling speed? Is he going double evo roach warrren? Just roach warren? While you are at that might as well poke the third and see how many gasses are up/count the drones.
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http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66855/?set=2&lang=
This is the most perfect muta defense that I have seen (at the start. Then Nestea makes some silly mistakes and loses it). And if DRG cannot get any damage done with his mutas, then no masters opponent can!
To sum up some of the points of the replay:
You can always get a scout of the spire. Or at least tell from the mass spines that it is spire.
You can go lair when you are near 2base saturation and make a 3rd queen with the other hatch.
Then make 2 extra queens that should pop almost when his mutas arrive.
After you finish your lair, go infestation pit and spread creep towards your third. When your infestors hatch you should be able to instantly grab your third and hold it easily (don't forget to make some spines to be safe from ling runbys). You can drone up HARD. He has only lings/blings as an attack unit and your few roaches plus infestor/spine should be able to defend any agression if positioned correctly. So he will take a slightly faster third but because he will be forced into making and upgrading an army, you can achieve a faster 3base saturation.
You don't have to go for a fast third that can be denied with ling/bling. His third will go down as soon as his spire is ready. If it is any faster, your roach army can deny it. So, considering you should be able to start your lair at about the same time as your opponent (when near 2base mineral saturation), you should be starting your tech at the same time. Spire is 120 sec. Infestation pit is 50 sec, pathogen glands is 80, for a total of 130 seconds. So you can and should have infestors with burrow before his mutas arrive at your base, thus securing your third only slightly slower than him.
Remember that mutas are used for taking a completely safe third base. There is nothing you can do about it but if you play your cards right, there is nothing he can do to deny you from doing the same. The difference is you have infestors which are the stronger late game unit:
For 12 mutas the opponent spent 1400/1400. Theese units are pracrtically worthless in a late game fight. You will make "wastefully, in response to his mutas" 3 queens (450), 4 spores (300) and burrow (100/100). The rest of the units you make (infestors and some roaches) are actually allowing you to get 3 rounds of only drones to saturate your third faster than him! You see that you are better on economy while having a much more useful unit composition when the army sizes grow.
As another poster said only when at 3 base you will be able to support hydras so that should be your focus. Overwhelm him at the timing window where you have a better army and better upgrades. Deny his 4th or go for a killing blow, it's up to you from there.
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And what about super fast lair, like 35 supply lair muta? You can't take a third against mutas that fast can you? Do you go 50 supply later lair infestors against that?
if the mutalisks come when you are unprepared, attack him with roaches to buy time. Especially against an incredibly fast lair - he really doesn't have much besides those mutalisks. He needs to follow your roaches all the way across the map to try to kill them. The difference between a 35 supply lair and a 50 supply lair is that the 35 supply lair can't afford to make tons of lings to go along with the mutalisks.
Maybe I should just view it like stargate - 'counter' mutas with drones.
But how much do you drone too?
If he is taking a 3rd, you want to drone directly to 3 base saturation (take all remaining geysers once you have 60 drones pretty much). If he's not taking a 3rd, you need more roaches because he is going to get very aggressive with zergling/baneling trying to disable your anti-air and win with whatever mutalisks he has.
How's this for a demo replay? Fast 3rd, stay on 3 gas (I actually took my 3rd gas too early as well). Light pressure with roaches to force spines and waste his lings when I am convinced it's mutalisk. I go roach -> infestor -> hydra -> roach with a couple of extra queens. As soon as my army is complete I move out, and split off a few units to go kill ninja 4ths while I engage his army. It would have been a cleaner transition if I stayed on 2 gas for a bit longer, I think.
http://drop.sc/176280
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try stephano style:
turtle 2-3 base: 2/2 roach ; 10-15queen; ~5-8 infestor
freewin
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Watched all 3 games. Your main problem has little to do with the strategic aspect of the game. Going muta is a safe way to win the game when one is ahead. When you are that far behind, it's hard to spread your defense thin or pin his mutas back by being aggressive yourself.
Try to work on your larva usage. Even under pressure, you need to force yourself to produce something, be it army or drones. As long as you use your army to pressure, you won't be as far behind as when there are idle larva instead, even if you make the wrong decision to make units at the wrong time.
Also look at your queen energy, you are losing out a lot on larva production. You are artificially keeping your resources low in the mid game, because you don't have ideal drone saturation when mining gas. If possible, try to squeeze in a 3rd queen into your build. Use the extra queen and natural queen to block. Your natural queen can move out every 40s just to inject your natural. An OL outside your natural will tell you when its safe to do so. Maybe consider getting your first extractor later, since your zvz style seems to have an emphasis on defending and just droning. It will be easier to squeeze in an extra queen and/or spine.
If your economy (similar drone count) is on par but with the difference in tech route being he getting more gas for tech and you getting a faster 3rd, hydralisks are more than enough to deal with any 2 base tech builds. Spores and infestor are also fine. Get your infestors burrow if you want to move out or they might get sniped to a well split muta flock, or just simply turtle til you get hydras out to support your infestors. If you are behind and can't get/defend your third, infestor queen all-in is your best bet.
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If you see 4 early gas taken theres no way your opponent can pressure you unless you are behind. Thats why fast 3rd is so strong against those openings.
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Thanks oboeman, I watched your rep.
It seems like he actually ended up ahead of you though:
- His third was up before you, and online quicker
- He came out ahead in supply in drones
The reason you won, it seems, is because he didn't carry his lead - he stopped droning at like 60 when you were still only at 49, and then he attacked into your choke badly. I suppose the argument is your roach/infestor army is just bigger before his is if he goes mutas, but he was the muta player - he knows that. He could have just sat behind his mass spines.
I guess I understand the execution here. Maybe I can use your mistakes to my advantage. I'm not sure what your mistakes were. Maybe too much static D? I don't know... Maybe lost too many roaches with that push against his third.
I think a lot of my losses against mutas are just struggling with my third against ling/bane aggression. I think I'm just fairly stupid on ZvZ, I need to hire a trainer or something ;/
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On May 14 2012 00:55 Belial88 wrote:
Thanks oboeman, I watched your rep.
It seems like he actually ended up ahead of you though:
- His third was up before you, and online quicker
- He came out ahead in supply in drones
The reason you won, it seems, is because he didn't carry his lead - he stopped droning at like 60 when you were still only at 49, and then he attacked into your choke badly. I suppose the argument is your roach/infestor army is just bigger before his is if he goes mutas, but he was the muta player - he knows that. He could have just sat behind his mass spines.
I guess I understand the execution here. Maybe I can use your mistakes to my advantage. I'm not sure what your mistakes were. Maybe too much static D? I don't know... Maybe lost too many roaches with that push against his third.
I think a lot of my losses against mutas are just struggling with my third against ling/bane aggression. I think I'm just fairly stupid on ZvZ, I need to hire a trainer or something ;/
I'd say my biggest mistake was taking too much gas too early, even though I still took less gas than you. During the early lair phase while dealing with mutalisks, I was mineral starved and floating gas. I had 3 geysers going, and I had made a 4th geyser but hadn't put drones in it yet, because I realized it was too soon, but I still didn't have mineral saturation at my natural. My gas progression looks like this. 1 drone in gas (for banelings and slow build-up) -> 2 geysers for +1 and roaches and lair -> 3 geysers when 2 bases saturated-> 6 geysers when 3 bases saturated. I think I jumped the gun on the 3rd geyser, and my drone count lagged a bit because of that. I also lost a few drones in my main to mutalisks (not many) but that could have been avoided just by having my spore closer to the geyser.
The roach sacrifice may have been unecessary, but I traded for a ton of zerglings which had the potential to be annoying. More importantly, if he didn't have that many lings I'd just hit his 3rd or walk past his spines and start hurting things. It's a greed check.
Always have a few lings and a baneling defending your 3rd while it's morphing, and then get a handful of roaches out for stopping runbys, and then make all drones.
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Woot, I finally beat muta!
So i think it was really macro that was my problem, and I had to fix those first:
1. Going hatch first but not droning. I would always go hatch first, but then overmake lings at the start. I think what fixed this was just facing 14/14 ling/bane all-in but doing it by droning hard against them and still holding them. Once I realized how easy it is to hold these with double queen, and you really only need just those 2-6 initial lings you make at the start to counter the first 2-6 lings he makes at the start (because you morph them into banes and make lings reactionary rather then precautionary), I was able to use my hatch first opening as a way to keep a lead. For so long I was just going hatch first but being super defensive, and then falling behind in drones.
2. Holding the fast third, is a different and earlier problem that needs to be solved on it's own, as a situation uniquely for you to both get behind or get ahead by. I would often go fast third to 'counter' muta play, correctly, but just not drone it correctly, or lose it too often.
Against someone going fast lair, and making lots of spines at home, it means you get map control. But in order to have map control, you need to make some units, first (like 35+ supply). So I learned to establish map dominance with lings, make a few banes by my third, and THEN drone really really hard, while making reactionary ling/bane as necessary. Too often I'd just lose my third to mass ling, or I'd make too many late roaches to hold my third, when you really need to hold it with ling/bane. If someone is going fast lair and spines, they won't be able to make more lings than you, and even if they do, they won't ahve roaches, and just making a bunch of banes will stop any attack.
Here's a rep where I went fast third, and I followed the advice in this thread:
- Faster third
- Less gas (so instead of taking 4 gas, just 3 gas, and stay on it longer, then 4 gas, and don't get 6 gas until really saturated at all bases)
- More spores (spores are okay as long as you make them after his spire finishes)
- Lots of creep (i wouldnt prioritize spreading creep, and then i ran into problems where I would overmake queens, because I was so scared of the usual mutas just ruining a base if it just didn't have enough)
It was pretty easy. My mass queens held his mutas, along with spores at every base, and just when he started to have a critical mass of mutas that would overcome my 5-7 queens with transfuse, infestors were popping. Gotta get that infestation pit asap, and with lair started around when his finishes, you will have infestors right when his muta count gets about 15+.
Thanks a lot! I really couldn't figure it out on my own. I knew there were macro problems, but I was able to analyze those on my own. I just had a flawed understanding of the match-up, about map control and such.
Btw in this rep, the guy actually did that recently-popular gasless 4 queen defense style. It helped me understand what to do better - by seeing his mass queens and spines, I took it upon myself to get a faster third than normal, knowing at the moment he wouldn't have massed army, and that I could take a third and mass army too if he massed army. Then I just saw him take all his gas and no roaches so I knew he was going mutas so I droned up while making banes at my bases.
I also think sending just a few roaches to deny his third after spire doesn't work, so I'll stop doing that. I guess they can make enough reactionary lings against someone who takes a third to protect it.
http://drop.sc/180980
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EPT
