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Lower masters.
I open most of my games hatch first, and it doesn't matter how huge a macro lead I have in the early game, I lose to muta.
When I go muta myself, I can do half decently, but I stopped doing that. I guess I figured 'macro play' is better, but I can't defend muta worth shit.
I try to reactively go muta, but usually I've taken my gas or lair too late to really be in the game against it.
Here I go muta, but by the time I figure out, it's too late really. I still try. The game is basically just me being so far behind in gas I can't catch up. There's also him taking his third. Normally you can deny that with roaches I guess, but in this game I can't. I guess it doesn't matter right, just go 2base muta fast third right?
http://drop.sc/175596
I don't know if my macro was a bit spotty, I was sort of behind for a second there in drones at the start, but then I was always slightly ahead. He took his fast third, but by that point it was too late for me to transition into roach/ling all-in. I mean I went hatch first anywaus.
It's just like zvz is about the opponent blindly doing things, and you can't really punish it because you either set up to roach/ling all-in at like 30 supply, or you didn't.
http://drop.sc/175597
Again, I go muta, but i'm sorta just too late as I reactively go mutas. I then lose a few too many mutas, but it doesnt matter I was behind in muta count anyways and he then overwhelms me right away.
http://drop.sc/175599
Here, I try to defend muta. He goes fast third and muta, but it's such a long map so I can't really punish it. I defend, get infestors out, get more drones (i mean not a lot more, but you know), with mostly queens. Then I'm just stuck on 3 base as he takes a 4th and goes ultra/muta and I just slowly die out as I cant take a fourth, cant ever attack him.
Ugh. I always lose to muta when I try to defend against it with infestor play, and whenever I go muta myself, it's just a sloppy reaction.
I guess I'll just go back to 2base muta like I used to. I was good at that. im also just fine when it's 3 base roach vs 2/3base roach. It's just fighting mutas, and defending with infestors or reactively going muta (ie its too late to go muta, I made too many roaches, whatever).
Thanks. I've watched the reps, I'm not really sure what's wrong. We're around each other in drones, I feel I may be slightly ahead because of my opening but not always but I still wish I could manifest that lead somehow... i dont know.
and a question - do these games just look stupid? like im just an idiot, like making stupidly bad mistakes or something? like you get when you watch like some bronze or diamond game sometimes? I feel like I'm doing okay, you know... jut wondering if I make any obvious problems.
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Mid Masters EU.
Depending on your opponent there's more ways to tackle this. Vs 14/14 doing a 11 min~ +1 roach push works wonders. It'll outright kill him if he's gone for a third. ( Assuming he didn't spine up on two bases. If he did, you should've scouted it and just sit on your ass and mass up that roach/hydra ball) If his mutas are attacking your roaches, he's not attacking your base and you will still do damage.If he is attacking your base, feel free to overreact with spores as he will lose absolutely everything in his base to your roaches. When I push out I generally add either an infestation pit or Hydra Den, depending on the map and what my further goals are.
Vs 15 hatch its more or less the same deal, except his mutas can come faster and in higher numbers. This is where you need to scout excellently with your lings. If you see him turtling up and getting early gasses, get your third asap and go with a roach/hydra army. Adding infestors on two base is not a solution to muta play, imo.
Note: Trying to go reactive mutas will only lose you games. His spire has been up longer, he's got an upgrade advantage, and he's likely got a muta advantage aswell. If you insist on getting a spire, corrupters are far better for their cost at dealing with mutas in a straight up fight.
~ Xana.
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Honestly you did everything right on daybreak for the first half but you were kinda behind after his allin. usually you dont want to get 30 infestors either. after you got 10 or so i woulda switched to hydras so you could move out on the map. also, in that game you could have taken your 4th way sooner if you secured it with queens and infestors. and another thing to note is if they keep making mutas after you get infestors they will delay their own infestors so you can sometimes do a roach queen infestor push when they do not get a lot of spines.
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I know you can do a cute 2 base all-in with roach/queen/infestor, but they just base trade you. By the time I had infestors, since I was playing macro 3 base, there was no way to get queens over that far on daybreak. I had barely any ground army that game too. I may have lost too many roaches but he took a ridiculous third, I thought I'd do more damage thatn that.
But i don't know if that lost me the game though. I just couldnt get queens that far, and from what I understand hydras aren't good against mutas at all due to speedbanes, and if you go roach/hydra/infestor, by the time you push they have either ultras or they just bumrush with 200/200 ling/bane/muta and your army is too small.
I may have ramped up the infestors in preparation for the ultras.
Xana, sorry, but your post is not helpful at all. Please watch the replays. And from what I understand, no one gets hydras against muta play, it's all about infestor (even 2 base infestor). I mean I'd love to be proven wrong. I don't even know what pro players do, there are so few ZvZ series... but i just understood hydras as bad against mutas, you need infestors or queens.
maybe i'll try fast third before lair into roach/hydra?
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ok I watched a few, and I'm mainly talking about the daybreak game where he took fast 3rd before lair and you went infestor (you top right, him bottom left).
The most important detail that I picked up on was that you were floating massive amounts of gas while you were establishing your 3rd base.
It's counter-intuitive, you think "I need infestors fast to stop mutalisks, so I need all my gas", but in reality what you need in the short-term are queens, spores, drones, and roaches. Infestors come later.
Queens and spores chase away the mutalisks on their first few attempts while the count is still small. Drones are drones. Roaches stop him from running in with zerglings and killing your anti-air, which stops him fromending the game with 10 mutalisks.
A trick that I've picked up from stephano's zvz is that he takes a very fast 3rd base, and he stays on 3 geysers until he has full mineral saturation at all 3 bases. 3 geysers gets you lair, +1, roach speed, and comfortable roach production capability, while still allowing you to drone up your 3rd base. After that, you take all 6 geysers and get infestors out.
Staying on low gas allows you to drone up faster, OR it allows you to put the hurt back on him by massing roaches and rallying towards his expansions before his mutalisks are out, or while his mutalisks are out of position. This often forces him to make lings and spines instead of drones and he can't saturate either.
Also, I always send an overlord or two to my 3rd base and drop creep as soon as lair finishes. This allows me to start spores before the hatchery finishes if the guy went very fast mutalisk.
If they guy stays on mutalisks and you've already established a 3 base economy, it is a good idea to add hydralisks after infestors. not before.
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On May 10 2012 04:55 Belial88 wrote:
Xana, sorry, but your post is not helpful at all. Please watch the replays. And from what I understand, no one gets hydras against muta play, it's all about infestor (even 2 base infestor). I mean I'd love to be proven wrong. I don't even know what pro players do, there are so few ZvZ series... but i just understood hydras as bad against mutas, you need infestors or queens.
It all depends on how you play. Hydra+Roach can beat Roach Infestor assuming decent control, and early in the game Roach/Hydra is definitively the way to deal with Muta play. Naturally, if his muta numbers spiral out of control, you'll lose. The whole point of the early Hydra vs Muta build is to bring the noise to him earlier than he's comfortable with. ZvZ, for me at least, merely comes down to controlling expansions. Going Mutalisks he's aiming to pin you back while he's taking his third, denying you yours. Thats when things get impossible, as he'll be able to drown you in almost whatever unit he so chooses. Since you've got the upgrades for the Roach push early, 2/1 Hydras absolutely rip apart any kind of Mutalisk he can have at that point in time. Forcing him to deal with your army lets you secure a third before he can secure his. Then its just a matter of constantly tossing roach/hydra at his face.
I did watch your first replay, and the only thing I can hint you towards is watching for differentials between you and your opponent. Playing ZvZ that way is really simple, tbh. He gets more gas than you, so he'll have more tech/gas heavy units than you. If you strike his face with mineral heavy burrow roaches as he's doing this, he can only reliably defend it with spines. In case he is matching your roach numbers, he's behind you in worker count and you can translate this into a third base.
Allowing a player who's rushing for Mutas to have a third base before his mutas are on the map is horrendously bad play. In my past 14 ZvZ's I've done the same 15 hatch into 10-11min +1 roach push, and never once have I been behind on my third, or lost to Mutas.
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^ Can you provide a rep? What you say is a lot different than what I understand, and it sounds very interesting.
I do recall when going 2 base muta, to have trouble with fast third defense into just straight roach/hydra.
I don't really understand your 10-11 minute +1 roach push. Is this on hatch tech? Isn't that kind of all-innish? I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Do you just mass 2 base lair roaches vs anyone you see going spire?
Thanks oboeman. So basically I'm taking 4+ gases too quickly, and I'm getting infestors too quickly, and I should rely a little more on spores, and the queens I'm making, a little longer, and get some roaches up? So third into drones/spores/queens into lair/roaches into full saturation into infestors into hydras. got it.
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On May 10 2012 05:44 Belial88 wrote:
^ Can you provide a rep? What you say is a lot different than what I understand, and it sounds very interesting.
I do recall when going 2 base muta, to have trouble with fast third defense into just straight roach/hydra.
I don't really understand your 10-11 minute +1 roach push. Is this on hatch tech? Isn't that kind of all-innish? I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Do you just mass 2 base lair roaches vs anyone you see going spire?
Thanks oboeman. So basically I'm taking 4+ gases too quickly, and I'm getting infestors too quickly, and I should rely a little more on spores, and the queens I'm making, a little longer, and get some roaches up? So third into drones/spores/queens into lair/roaches into full saturation into infestors into hydras. got it.
I think it is lair tech. At 11 min or so roach speed and +1 finish at around the same time. Though I think it is better against a fast third than 2 base muta with a lot of spines up front.
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When I go muta the biggest problem I have is super greedy fast 3rd base into roach/hydra. Massive speed roach attacks only work if you take a 3rd and skimp on spines/lines, otherwise it actually gives you the game.
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i had the same problem for as long time until i started going quick third in zvz also. stay on one gas, have both roach and baneling tech. generally 3 banes and like 12 lings are enough to defend the 3rd hatch building and the roaches should stay in the natural. make sure you prepare migration-spores in your natural so you have them in your third asap. if he does an allin, just cancel and mass roaches/morph extra banes.
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You can't commit to pure hydra against muta because then you arent representing any offensive ability, so they can expand freely behind the mutas., build a production round of hydra when you first scout muta and use them in combination with spores to defend muta pokes. From there you should focus on infestors and roaches, moving out when you have ~8 infestors.
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On May 10 2012 04:55 Belial88 wrote:
And from what I understand, no one gets hydras against muta play, it's all about infestor (even 2 base infestor). I mean I'd love to be proven wrong. I don't even know what pro players do, there are so few ZvZ series... but i just understood hydras as bad against mutas, you need infestors or queens.
I'm not sure if he uses the same strategy, but I watched a bunch of Ret's stream vods several months ago and he was using hydras as his main muta repellent.
His strategy went like this:
1). Super quick third.
2). Fast creep spread to third and overlord creep between the natural and third (the rally point).
3). Hydra den immediately after lair. Prepare for mutas with extra queens and a couple spores at each base.
4). Make a lot of hydras. He had upwards of 20-25
5). Make infestors and replace dead drones. At this point he's spending all his gas on infestors and upgrades.
6). After about 8-10 infestors he quickly maxed on roaches and attacked/expanded.
In most of the vods I saw his opponents went muta/ling/bane. Ret positioned hydras in the middle of the roaches and had infestors fungal flanking lings and banelings. The composition also worked pretty well against roach balls because Ret had more army supply that wasn't tied up in mutas.
I played around with this strategy, but due to bad mechanics I could never clean it up and ultimately pitched it to focus on macro. Sorry I can't give you a specific date for the vods (I could never find any replays).
I am very interested to find out if any of this works since I 15 hatch every zvz and run into the "crap, what do I do next?!" feeling of not having a solid build order. I'm only going to be able to outmacro opponents for so long, so if there are any pro replays you find to help you out please share!
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On May 10 2012 05:50 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 05:44 Belial88 wrote:
^ Can you provide a rep? What you say is a lot different than what I understand, and it sounds very interesting.
I do recall when going 2 base muta, to have trouble with fast third defense into just straight roach/hydra.
I don't really understand your 10-11 minute +1 roach push. Is this on hatch tech? Isn't that kind of all-innish? I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Do you just mass 2 base lair roaches vs anyone you see going spire?
Thanks oboeman. So basically I'm taking 4+ gases too quickly, and I'm getting infestors too quickly, and I should rely a little more on spores, and the queens I'm making, a little longer, and get some roaches up? So third into drones/spores/queens into lair/roaches into full saturation into infestors into hydras. got it. I think it is lair tech. At 11 min or so roach speed and +1 finish at around the same time. Though I think it is better against a fast third than 2 base muta with a lot of spines up front.
I doubt that. Going 3 base roach will beat 2 base roach - of course, you have to hold the aggression, but there is no reason you can't be able to hold (whereas roach/ling will own fast third).
When I go muta the biggest problem I have is super greedy fast 3rd base into roach/hydra. Massive speed roach attacks only work if you take a 3rd and skimp on spines/lines, otherwise it actually gives you the game.
yea same here. hm... why dont I ever see pros do that?
i had the same problem for as long time until i started going quick third in zvz also. stay on one gas, have both roach and baneling tech. generally 3 banes and like 12 lings are enough to defend the 3rd hatch building and the roaches should stay in the natural. make sure you prepare migration-spores in your natural so you have them in your third asap. if he does an allin, just cancel and mass roaches/morph extra banes.
What all-in? Muta play is obviuos by 4 gas and spines, there's no transition into an all-in from that. Do you mean ling/bane/muta all-in?
You can't commit to pure hydra against muta because then you arent representing any offensive ability, so they can expand freely behind the mutas., build a production round of hydra when you first scout muta and use them in combination with spores to defend muta pokes. From there you should focus on infestors and roaches, moving out when you have ~8 infestors.
So infestors, or hydras first?
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watched the first game and i really dont understand your overall goal in zvz, you say you try go to muta "reactively"? whats the purpose of that? if he goes mutas first, he gets a free third while denying yours - it's as simple as that.
most players going muta dont have the intention of committing to it too hardcore anyways. they get mutas to get a safe third, so they get economically ahead and switch into infestor/roach tech. getting a spire "reactively" to counter his mutas is pointless if you realize the overall goal of his build.
in the first game he actually came out ahead against your hatch first. you gathered a _1000_ gas before you dropped your spire. at this point his mutas already hatched and the game is pretty much over.
if you want to reactively do something about mutas, get infestors not mutas.
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hey belial
oboeman is right.
the reason people go 2 base muta is to deny the third base from going up.
and on 2 base infestor you cannot trade effectively against properly microed 2 base muta,
so you need to get that third up and spore it up before mutas are at your third.
technically you can just have overlords there and start spewing creep as soon as you have lair and then drop spores while the third is being built. and then just make an extra queen or two. but during all of this you have to tech to infestors and make them BEFORE hydras. cause hydras are only good against mutas when there are infestors so you can outrange them.
you should be getting ranged ups. and you will probably need roaches against mutaling players because lings will be streaming in at all times.
if you do this properly you should have 3 bases before he does and an upgrade advantage and a superior army comp infestor roach hydra to his muta ling bane.
once yo uhave spores at your third you should be fine. just constantly be checking his flock, if he has alot you have to make sure you arent vulnerable anywhere because spores die pretty fast to 15+ mutas.
hope this helps
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watched the first game and i really dont understand your overall goal in zvz, you say you try go to muta "reactively"? whats the purpose of that? if he goes mutas first, he gets a free third while denying yours - it's as simple as that.
I believe that whoever goes mutas later, is ahead (as long as you defend adequately). So like, if you go super fast 35 supply lair, and I go 50 supply lair, I'll win, because I'll hold off your puny 6 mutas with maybe an extra queen or two and a spore or two, and then I'll pump out 13 mutas instantly and just overwhelm you. Now obviously I have to defend in order to get that lead, but it's not hard to defend 6 mutas.
But the problem with 'reactive' mutas, like going mutas as a reaction to scouting he's going mutas, is I may have started my roach warren already, or made some roaches already, or I wasn't mining more than 1 geyser for a long time while he mined 2, and I wasn't mining 4 gas for a long time. So either because of lack of gas or because I've spent too much gas, it doesnt work too well because I can't get that many mutas out, and they might be TOO late (I mean, 35 supply lair vs 45 supply lair good, but 30 supply lair vs 55 supply lair, that's kind of cutting it and the 35er may end up with more mutas simply because he's been building them for so long).
in the first game he actually came out ahead against your hatch first. you gathered a _1000_ gas before you dropped your spire. at this point his mutas already hatched and the game is pretty much over.
yea I think I forget my spire too long sometimes. But i didnt realize i did it that game too. Thanks.
Do you think if I didn't forget it so long I would have been okay? I mean I felt like I lost after I had sunk all that gas into mutas and he simply had way more because he had beening mining more for longer i think.
Thanks mooseman. I think I just get infestors too fast, or make too many spores, or something, that I just dont get enough drones.
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hey belial also
if you think you are not getting your gas at the right timings or what not i find its very useful to just use gas a timer.
what i mean is just take a a gas and then when you hit 100 spend it and then hit a 100 spend it. once you hit a certain point you drop ur other gases if you need them. but your gas should definitely determine ur lair timing which should determine ur infestation pit timing.
hope that made sense
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Muta needs to do damage to be effective.
A fast 6:30 to 7 :30 third base with spores in time and queen production from all hatches, atleast 2 spores per base.. and you start to deny the ability for him to do damage, and his economy wont be in any type of lead because of your equal or faster third base.
This is why pro's tend not to do mutalisks as much anymore, because if they fail to do any damage (more than killing a few overlords) they have an extremely hard time dealing with like 10 queens/ roaches/infestor push
Queens are less expensive and more effective than hydralisks, for sure.
The strength in mutalisk builds is to do early damage to economy, queens, etc. and to deny a third base.
If you prepare with extra queens, spores, and a fast third, they cannot do any of the above.. and their investment is wasted.
Muta vs Muta, it can come down to the upgrades.. and I'd suggest playing defensive as possible in muta vs muta because a lot of times the guy who attacks is the guy who loses his mutas first
Always get +1 carapace right away if you think you're going muta vs muta-- the next upgrade can be situational--> +1 attack finishes faster than +2 carapace, and costs less gas, but I believe 0/2 mutas win against 1/1 mutas.. Just food for thought.
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If you have the economic advantage like you say, you can go queen-roach-infestor on a nydus worm (or overlord with speed and transport tech), and it should be no problem. Ensure you have +1 or +2 ranged attack to 2-shot zerglings with roaches.
You can also get hydralisks instead of queens with infestors (or in addition), but it requires specific timing, and specific positioning and micromanagement. I don't like them for anything, personally.
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On May 10 2012 07:31 Xapti wrote:
If you have the economic advantage like you say, you can go queen-roach-infestor on a nydus worm (or overlord with speed and transport tech), and it should be no problem. Ensure you have +1 or +2 ranged attack to 2-shot zerglings with roaches.
This guy speaks truth.. Nydus worm with queens/roach/infestor is so god damn strong vs mutas... especially when they're right in your face.
The only problem is getting vision to do it, and only very very good zerg players deny complete scouting of the map with mutas
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EPT
