EPT[G] PvZ Tyler's 2 Gate Sentry Expand. - Page 4
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INTOtheVOID
United States225 Posts
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
On May 09 2012 09:48 INTOtheVOID wrote: NoNy always trying unique builds, props to him. I still don't understand why he hates FFE though... I don't know for him, but as for myself, I hate FFE because that it does not allow really early pressure on the zerg. I know you can put cannons to try to prevent hatcheries, but unless you're playing a Diamond and lower player it will almost always fail. I like 2 Gate because I can chrono units to put a LOT of early pressure. However, what I've found out is that it rewards good micro and game sense as you cannot afford to lose those early units to speedlings and such. FFE isn't bad. It just doesn't suit the style of play some of us want to do.  | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 09 2012 08:15 Skyro wrote: Yes the whole notion of needing a lot of sentries to gate expand is outdated. That was back in the old days when every zerg opened gas->pool and got fast ling speed. Nowadays most zergs open gasless into <5 min 3rd hatch where you don't need a single sentry to hold a 1-gate expand (plus you can go core before forge or even skip the forge in some instances). In cases where they open gas first you have to drop forge before core and a small amount of sentries, and for those who open gasless 2-base or >5 min third hatch you also need a small amount of sentries depending on obviously what they are all-inning you with. For instance, I just found that by delaying the expand by about 30 seconds from the one linked in the OP, you can have a really, really fast void (or a really fast group of phoenixes). Imagine having a stargate done at around the 5 minute mark and still having 2 sentries around before 530 to FF if you get rushed. Lobber made a "not-so 1-base Robo" build a while ago which is likely of the same theme. Make them tech or build a ton of defense when they want to be building drones. Again, this is very untested, but honestly I'm losing enough of my PvZs that I wouldn't mind trying something different to have a good reason for losing every now and again ("new strat") - rather than the reason continuously being "I can't defend the 200/200 roach push without getting way behind". Good to mix it up a bit.  And yes, I know it's defensible - but I'm honestly just not that good. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
I've been toying with the idea of building Gate 2 (and 3 if necessary) on the low ground (after 3rd pylon) so as to already have that simcity up when you put down your expand. It is map-dependant though: second ramps and narrow chokes are good. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
http://drop.sc/175416 http://drop.sc/175417 http://drop.sc/175418 http://drop.sc/175419 --> on shakuras rest of them are on antiga, i know the positons are fucked up, because its so easy to attack my third, but the max out hits when im barely above 100 supply and the burrow really negates my FF. Either its my simcity(probaby) and/or i need an adjustment in my build but i have no idea what it is at this time. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Payson
United States394 Posts
On September 06 2012 05:58 Sated wrote: Sorry for the bump but... ... yeah, I've seen that. He's been using it to get a really fast Stargate at his natural choke instead of getting a Forge or a third Gateway. It seems risky, but if you pressure the Zerg with mostly Zealots then they really have to make a lot of Zerglings to defend and it can get really tough for them. I need to study the timings of the Zealots/Sentries better, but I've been trying something similar with a really fast Robotics Facility and I've found that if you can force the Zerg to make too many units, they can't really defend a follow up 7 Gate Immortal attack because they don't have the economy required to flood you with Roaches. I really need to work on the timings since I've only really started doing this over the last couple of days and it's a while since I watched NonY doing his opening. I would play Stargate like NonY does, but I'm really bad with Phoenixes for some reason. I especially need to go 5Z 2S for my pressure, which I haven't been doing. It would be a lot stronger. http://drop.sc/247626 http://drop.sc/247625 EDIT: Those Zealots really make a difference: http://drop.sc/247642 http://drop.sc/247649 I do the build regularly against ~1700+ Masters NA Zerg partners (I'm only about ~600pts. but haven't laddered in a month due to laptop fps issues) to test it out and see how well it can work consistently. I feel like you can go either Stargate or Forge after the 2 initial gateways, depending on what you feel more comfortable with. As for the 5Z2S pressure, always make sure you pick the first two sentries you created alas, they have the most energy for forcefields. In practice, I either a) snipe the third hatchery and a few units with a drone or two b) see my opponent has the third hatch up, but got enough early units that I simply back off, now knowing I forced units (It's not viable to try and snipe the hatch if he made enough zerglings/roaches to counter the pressure or c) the pressure gets completely punished from bad positioning. Usually you just need to stay along the outer edges of the hatchery, farthest from his natural so it'll take just an extra second or two for his units to come at you, which can really make the difference. The push works nicely because it hits around 7:30, a time that is usually before any gateway pressure off FFE. Most zergs won't expect the pressure and will have minimal units to defend, unless they scouted really well. Aim for hitting their third around 7:30. NonY's more recent VoDs show he prefers the forge, then taking a relatively fast third around 9:30 - 10:00 off mostly gateway units. Either here, he goes into some form of +3 timing with Blink Stalkers and Colossi, or for an even more macro centric game, but usually I never see him get above 4 bases on stream PvZ. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
PvZ has actually become my strongest matchup for the first time ever, and i am now using a slight variant of what i posted, which chronos the first zealot so that you can have two zealots out before 100 gas for the first sentry, and then doing a push with 4 sentries and 3 zealots, leaving two sentries at home. It hits much faster, which is the key. On a map like Ohana, where when you get into the natural you have a 2 FF sized ramp behind you and a 1 ff sized ramp ahead of you, if there aren't already two spines finished and quite a few speedlings you can do a lot of damage, and if there are, you can just walk home sticking to the walls and be cost efficient no matter how many he throws at you while still being even economically. I still prefer to play robo/gateway styles as opposed to stargate ones, for exactly the reasons tyler was saying on his streams a few weeks ago: It provides an army that is ALWAYS strong, unlike the normal PvZ armies that are strong for brief periods that lead to Timing based PvZ that we are used to. Get ~3 immortals, use hallu/obs/pokes to see what composition he is going for a react accordingly. If he is going spire you already have a twilight for +2 and react as usual with blink and teching to storm while taking your third. You only have to survive the mass muta flock, then you are already prepared for any tech switch, and immortals are really good against heavy spine defences. Will add reps soon. Edit: http://drop.sc/247871 Last game i played, despite terrible micro in the fight, not using my templars at all, i still won pretty handily. I decided to play super passive that game, but it isn't necessary, i should have sharked around much more, and poked, i just felt ahead from the start, and when i scouted the timing on his third i just wanted to wait for the fast +3 attack and go. http://drop.sc/247913 Another completely normal game, i get to his base with my poke, see roaches, do 0 damage, walk home again, check he is still massing roaches with obs, proceed to take third at around 12:30, and go for a +3 timing attack and win. This is a super safe way of playing, which is much easier than the aggressive variant, but if you want free wins, at a timing before he gets a hardcore brood army with lots of infestors and spines, this is a really strong one. Behind it i am teching to collosus and should be also heading to mothership, except he was completely dead anyway. | ||
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Payson
United States394 Posts
On September 06 2012 19:42 Sated wrote: In a lot of NonY's recent games, he's actually been going for Stargate pressure with Phoenixes. The first game of his most recent streaming session showcases this style. That's his most recent showcased PvZ. If you look at most VoDs before yesterdays, he still goes for Forge the majority of PvZ. | ||
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Stunergy
United States41 Posts
reason: Most likely when your taking your third and having slowed their third and econ, the zerg will shortcut his way back into a comfortable position. Leaving DT's a good option to harass with | ||
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PineapplePizza
United States749 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On September 07 2012 04:19 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Are there any VOD's / replays of Tyler playing gateway PvZ on the KR server / against notable pros other than darkforce? He plays a lot on the EU server as well, and i'm sure i've seen notable players names there. Could be confused though. | ||
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