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Hey guys, this will be my first attempt at writing a guide in a thread as opposed to an LP article, so i went ahead and stole Alejandrisha's format from one of his guides. I definitely appreciate being able to do that <3
Anyway, this is a (hopefully) short guide to Liquid'Tyler/NonY's 2 gate sentry expand in PvZ, which if you guys have been following him through the last 5 weeks or so he does in a large majority of his games, including the one against Darkforce in the NASL and on his stream. The build is really quite fun, and this is the first time i have ever gone over 55% win in PvZ for more than a week or so, so thank you to him!
Update September 2012
+ Show Spoiler +PvZ has actually become my strongest matchup for the first time ever, and i am now using a slight variant of the opening that i posted, which chronos the first zealot so that you can have two zealots out before 100 gas for the first sentry, and then doing a push with 4 sentries and 3 zealots, leaving two sentries at home. It hits much faster, which is the key. On a map like Ohana, where when you get into the natural you have a 2 FF sized ramp behind you and a 1 ff sized ramp ahead of you, if there aren't already two spines finished and quite a few speedlings you can do a lot of damage, and if there are, you can just walk home sticking to the walls and be cost efficient no matter how many he throws at you while still being even economically. I still prefer to play robo/gateway styles as opposed to stargate ones, for exactly the reasons tyler was saying on his stream a few weeks ago: It provides an army that is ALWAYS strong, unlike the normal PvZ armies that are strong for brief periods that lean towards the 'timing based' PvZ that we are used to. Get ~3 immortals, use hallu/obs/pokes to see what composition he is going for and react accordingly. If he is going spire you already have a twilight for +2 and react as usual with blink and teching to storm while taking your third. You only have to survive the mass muta flock, then you are already prepared for any tech switch, and immortals are really good against heavy spine defences. http://drop.sc/247871Last game i played, despite terrible micro in the fight, not using my templars at all, i still won pretty handily. I decided to play super passive that game, but it isn't necessary, i should have sharked around much more, and poked, i just felt ahead from the start, and when i scouted the timing on his third i just wanted to wait for the fast +3 attack and go. http://drop.sc/247913Another completely normal game, i get to his base with my poke, see roaches, do 0 damage, walk home again, check he is still massing roaches with obs, proceed to take third at around 12:30, and go for a +3 timing attack and win. This is a super safe way of playing, which is much easier than the aggressive variant, but if you want free wins, at a timing before he gets a hardcore brood army with lots of infestors and spines, this is a really strong one. Behind it i am teching to collosus and should be also heading to mothership, except he was completely dead anyway.
DISCLAIMER:
+ Show Spoiler +Tyler does multiple variations of this opening, but I have only focused on one, which does an early poke, and then goes straight into immortal production. I have seen him on his stream do no early poke, but get a faster obs and a faster 3rd gas, but I prefer the poke, because it is more fun, and denies thirds against the players I face on ladder, who do not know/remember how to open against gateway expands, and take very greedy third bases as if facing a forge expand.
Of course, it is entirely possible that I make mistakes here about Tyler's reasoning on some things, so maybe claiming that this is Tyler's build is not 100% true, but I can only inform based on my own experience, so please do not crucify me over this!
Intro
+ Show Spoiler +Recently we have seen a resurgence of people wondering whether gateway expands could possibly be viable again in PvZ, obviously, Tyler still thinks so, as he always did. Before I recent a lot of people hating on the build because it isn't FFE, I am just going to say that it doesn't overly matter to me if this build could be successful for Hero in the GSL, the point is that it has been shown to work at levels way above mine (average masters), so i can still greatly improve by doing it.
There will be others saying that this only works because people don't know what to do against it, and to some extent that might be the case, but i am actually looking forward to people reacting better, will be more fun for me.
The aim of this build is to expand of of 2 gates, immediately throw down a force to wall on the low ground, followed by a gate, and then while that finishes push with 3 zealots and 6 sentries while leaving 2 sentries at home to protect against counters. This push is meant for force spines/units if the zerg is on 2 base, and if they went a fast 3 base i can often deny the 3rd with decent forcefields.
The Build
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon [DON'T SCOUT] 10 Chrono Nexus 12 Chrono Nexus 13 Gateway 14 Gas 16 Pylon [SCOUT] 17 Core 18 Zealot 21 Assimilator 22 Pylon 23 Sentry 25 Gateway 26 Sentry 29 Pylon (low ground) 33 Sentry 35 Sentry 36 Nexus 37 Pylon Then, add a forge, then a gateway, while never stopping sentry production until you have 8. Start +1 attack as soon as the forge finishes. On the late scout: This build, because it does not use an early stalker, actually isn't overly affected by scouting, and if you are wondering about 6 pools, I will link to one of Tyler's most recent stream VoDs where he completely beat down a 6 pool blind by chronoing out two zealots and pulling 8 probes to defend the pylon whenever it was attacked. Tyler does sometimes scout at 13, but I am not sure what makes him choose to do one than the other, I have however found that he build order is much tighter if you scout after the second pylon. Stream Link: http://www.twitch.tv/liquidtyler/b/316815983 The game starts at 23 minutes. Remember, you don't have to micro as well as Tyler did, and you can pull a couple more probes, and still be far ahead. If you scout earlier than the gateway then you cannot afford to get the second gate early enough, so the build simply won't work. Here seems like an appropriate time to say that Tyler in the early game almost always rallies probes to build buildings, even if it means they don't get placed perfectly on time, because for this build MINERALS are key. You simply cannot get the the second gate out as quickly as necessary unless you get the extra 10 minerals from every building that you get by rallying instead of taking workers off of mining.
A note on the wall:
+ Show Spoiler +Tyler likes to use the classic gate/core wall off at the ramp to his main, but i personally dislike it a lot in comparison to a pylon-core or pylon-gate wall, as demonstrated here: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SRUFE.jpg) This DOES, 100% block zerglings from getting through, (and often causes zergs who doubt that fact to lose zerglings), as well as, most importantly, fits archons as well. On top of that, as the gap is in the middle, running between your main and your natural is much faster, which is obviously desirable. These two facts i feel heavily outweigh the slightly disadvantage of having a larger surface area on the zealot (allowing two zerglings to fight at once), due to the fact that no-one ever builds 8+ zerglings and has them at your ramp these days before your next unit is ready.
Early Game Poke
+ Show Spoiler +
So what is next? I will be talking about a mix of what I like to do, as well as what Tyler does. First there is the 6 sentry 3 zealot poke, what we are aiming for here, is to poke at the third, (which you should have tried to scout with a probe.) If there is no third, walk up to the natural, usually to the boundary of the creep, and see if they are building spines. Usually they will be, because you will have chrono boosted the core a bunch of times, so this could still be a nexus cancel into 5 gate zealot sentry all in. Depending on how close the spines are to done, and how scared I feel of zerglings, I will poke about and wait for the spines to finish, and then walk home having taken no damage.
A few things to remember!
Don't just run out! I have lost two games when the zerg has been going for an all in which I would have crushed if I hadn't just moved my sentries out of a small choke. Send 1 zealot out in front to see if there are a group of roaches/banelings getting ready to bust.
Have a pylon in your main to warp in the last two zealots as you leave you natural.
If you managed to time you assimilators perfectly you might want to wait an extra second or two and warp in 1 zealot and 1 stalker to join the poke, to make it 2 zealots 6 sentries and 1 stalker. I personally prefer this, but it only seems to happen on maps where the geysers are closer to the nexus. (I should probably make a list of these, but I tend to just notice them in the game).
It is important to be fast! As with warping in a stalker there, if you have to wait for it it isn't worth it.
Forcefields are good! This is all about experience and placing forcefields slowly. You only have 6 sentries, on about half energy, so you must not waste them.
Finally, err on the side of caution. This build has the advantage that you are building sentries back at home behind this, so that if you do get caught you aren't completely frikkin dead, but you are at least 1 foot in the grave if you lose your entire poke, so if you are worried, just go home.
Once more unto the mid game my brothers!
+ Show Spoiler +Behind the poke, you should be warping in sentries until you have around 10 total, as well as adding a robotics, a 4th gateway, and starting +1 armour. The next 100 gas will go on hallucination (yay!) which I use about once every other minute to scout what the zerg is doing. If they have a lair, I immediately build two cannons at my front in case of burrowed roaches, because there isn't time to get an observer out while building immortals.
I cannot stress this part enough: The thing that I absolutely love about this build, is that we can have enough sentries to use hallucinated phoenixes prolifically. You can take zero (give or take a stalker or two) damage to mutas if you know exactly when they are coming.
The reason this is important, is because if they are going spire you will be warping in only stalkers, and teching to blink. If they are going roach/roach+infestor, you will be doing a mix of stalkers and up to 5 immortals for the standard immortal sentry mix, only with much more energy than you would have had off of an FFE. This is where you can do a push, try and take out a 4th, and expand yourself.
The problem here is that I cannot give you a straight-forward order to exactly what you should do, because it depends on the map and what the zerg is doing. If they are going roaches, wait until you have 2 or 3 immortals, and then take your third quickly, but carefully. Remember, Hallucination is your friend, you shouldn't ever have to do anything until you know it is safe to do so. At this point you should also have an observer out in case of a burrowed roach attack. I usually build the observer at the earliest after the first immortal, but usually after the second or third.
Conclusion
+ Show Spoiler +This build isn't meant to claim that FFE is dead in anyway, in fact, FFE is still essential on many maps, as I would never do this build without a ramp to the main, and I advise against it on GIANT maps like daybreak. However, this is to say that Gateway expands ARE viable, and this is a strong way to do them. I am bound to add more to this soon, but I thought I would gauge the initial reaction first.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +I am uploading the most standard games, I have a lot of stupid ones, like where the zerg massively over reacts thinking of 4 gate, and so i win, a lot of games of me holding zerg all ins, or zergs playing stupidly greedy which leads them to just die to the second push. Lastly there are some others where i do not execute the build properly at all. I will also link to some Tyler vods which should be much more informative. Tyler vs Darkforce Game 1The casters miscall this as a 1 gate expand i think, but this is exactly the build i am talking about. Tyler vs Darkforce Game 2This is one of the variants that i spoke about, which he probably did because he wanted to do something slightly different. I thought about doing this version instead, but i chose to just practice one of them really hard instead of trying to do both, as i only have limited time before my exams. Still uploading more but here are a couple: Game 1: http://drop.sc/171119This was one of my earlier ones, because i only recently started using hallucinate very recently, and this is why. Lost 4 sentries in a warp prism to mutas. :o Game 2: http://drop.sc/171118This one was better, but again, need HALLUCINATE. When i saw roaches i simply ran away, but the early units triggered me to do a slightly earlier attack as i thought he must have droned less and therefore his 3rd would have been more vulnerable. Game 3: http://drop.sc/171120This is probably the best execution of the opening, but it is a good example of how if you lose your sentries, the only safe transition is into losing the game. Game 4: http://drop.sc/171123In this game i get greedy at the third i think i should have pulled back when i first saw roaches, so i lose a couple of sentries. We proceed into a decent game, where my macro is terribad as usual, and eventually i lose to roach hydra broodlord. Possibly could have won with better macro but hey. I'm no liquid'NonY. Game 5: http://drop.sc/171679Game on daybreak, the build works absolutely fine, i pressure the third, and transition into blinkstalker + immortal, once i scout only 4 gases and no spire i take my 4rd. He pressures, i lose my third but kill his army, and counter while retaking my third. Probably the best executed game of the reps so far.
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nice read / guide mate ! 
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Tyler has never been a fan of FFE 
He brings a nice diversity to the matchup, wich is most needed because most zerg now only remember how play against FFE(because it'S soo commun). Definetly a build that i will try out myself here and there for diversity purpose, can't wait for those replay 
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On May 03 2012 21:44 HellRush wrote:Tyler has never been a fan of FFE He brings a nice diversity to the matchup, wich is most needed because most zerg now only remember how play against FFE(because it'S soo commun). Definetly a build that i will try out myself here and there for diversity purpose, can't wait for those replay
I've posted up a few of the replays. I would like to point out that i am god awful at this game, especially at the moment when i am revising for university exams (wish me luck!) but there you are.
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Hmm, i think it depends on the map, on something like metropolis you can take a super fast 3rd, but on maps like cloud kingdom i think it is risky to take a third as soon as the first immortal pops. I also tend to play templar styles because i think they are more fun, although this isn't always the case, and collosi are good for cleaning up broodlings. I generally just use hallucinate for the hive timing, but as long as you stay on top of it (as i don't in some of my games) it can be pretty good.
When do you place cannons? I really think it is a waste unless you see some pressure coming, because as opposed to an FFE your army is really strong at all stages of the game with this opening.
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 04 2012 01:23 Surili wrote:
Hmm, i think it depends on the map, on something like metropolis you can take a super fast 3rd, but on maps like cloud kingdom i think it is risky to take a third as soon as the first immortal pops. I also tend to play templar styles because i think they are more fun, although this isn't always the case, and collosi are good for cleaning up broodlings. I generally just use hallucinate for the hive timing, but as long as you stay on top of it (as i don't in some of my games) it can be pretty good.
When do you place cannons? I really think it is a waste unless you see some pressure coming, because as opposed to an FFE your army is really strong at all stages of the game with this opening.
I personally never place cannons blindly these days. First off zergs suck balls vs gateway expand anyway, so it's unlikely their roach/ling timings willbe crisp. Also i always send out a zealot to clear scouting lings up to the closest tower at around 7 minutes ish; if i do see roach/ling i can get cannons in time, otherwise it's useless.
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nice guide, might have to try it out
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On May 04 2012 02:06 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:23 Surili wrote:
Hmm, i think it depends on the map, on something like metropolis you can take a super fast 3rd, but on maps like cloud kingdom i think it is risky to take a third as soon as the first immortal pops. I also tend to play templar styles because i think they are more fun, although this isn't always the case, and collosi are good for cleaning up broodlings. I generally just use hallucinate for the hive timing, but as long as you stay on top of it (as i don't in some of my games) it can be pretty good.
When do you place cannons? I really think it is a waste unless you see some pressure coming, because as opposed to an FFE your army is really strong at all stages of the game with this opening. I personally never place cannons blindly these days. First off zergs suck balls vs gateway expand anyway, so it's unlikely their roach/ling timings willbe crisp. Also i always send out a zealot to clear scouting lings up to the closest tower at around 7 minutes ish; if i do see roach/ling i can get cannons in time, otherwise it's useless.
Yeah, what he said, there is absolutely no reason to place cannons early in this build that gets you fast immortals and a very high sentry count. The only time i build a cannon or two is if i feel behind, or if i expect a counter for some reason, like having spotted strangely out of position units for some reason. Once you are on 3 base, then there is more reason to place them, as you are more spread out, and you can stop Ling/roach counters with them and a warped in sentry or two.
On May 04 2012 02:19 krowe wrote:
nice guide, might have to try it out
Glad to hear it, good luck.
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i've been trying 2 gate expos vs zerg for a few weeks now and i like the build a lot. however the problem with just copying what you see off of tyler's stream is that according to him, tyler is just experimenting with different timings/bos while on ladder. if you are going to try and copy whatever tyler thinks is best then you are more likely to find the "true" build from a tournament replay rather than from his stream.
one thing i've had problems with is the zergs who save all their gas for a HUGE muta ball and then just roll over your stalkers making the game unwinable from that point. some things that i think i should work on to counter this is:
1 better scouting: lots of thing can tip you off if a zerg is going to go muta ling or the macro roach style. if they get a quick gas around pool timing then expect metabolic boost and eventually a muta transition. whenever i scout any type of speedling build i always go obs first from the robo to confirm spire, where if i'm suspecting roaches i'll usually get 1 or maybe 2 immortals first before getting obs. so far the hardest thing for me about opening gateway in pvz is deciding when to get an obs, because it's so important to know about a spire and it's also very important to have crazy immortal production if they are going roach. i guess i will just need to improve my scouting instincts in the pre robo phase.
2 the first push: one thing i've noticed is that the sentry push can be used to scout the zerg's eventual transitions. i have just started trying to use this so it's nowhere near as developed as it could be, but something like seeing minimal lings with lots of queens could mean roaches while seeing a large amount of lings probably means they will be going muta.
3 timing of third: a quick third means relying on huge roach numbers during midgame while a slower third indicates that the zerg is either teching or investing into an army
a question for the op: when do you take a fourth? i feel like i'm turtling on 3 bases for way to long but i dont see any other option especially if i'm already having to split up my army to defend my natural/3rd. i've noticed that i cant time plus 3 attack to finish around the time my first 1 or 2 colossus and thermal range is done and i usually move out and try to do some damge or at the very least remove all the creep while expanding. maybe it just comes down to having better micro/multitasking in order to secure a 4th in which case time will tell.. but i would like to know what other people are doing to try and get a 4th.
also does anyone think that going carrier after mothership is really good? even if you are just making 2 carriers at a time if you keep all of them alive and get good air attack upgrades i think it does wonders for the standard deathball vs deathball scenario where zerg has broods/corrupters/infestors
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Nice thread. I've been attempting 2 Gate Expo in PvZ for a while now, and recently began to incorporate some aspects of Nony's builds into my own (namely a lower Stalker count soon after my expansion, a lower number of gateways, and teching faster to Robo although I should probably incorporate a faster TC into that as well). I'm a pretty terrible player though and have a lot left to learn about the Gateway builds v Z and their execution. So, thanks for the thread.
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On May 03 2012 20:44 Surili wrote:Behind the poke, you should be warping in sentries until you have around 10 total, as well as adding a robotics, a 4th gateway, and starting +1 armour.
10 sentries at home ? Or 10 with the few survivors of your early poke ?
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10 in total, I believe. The poke is strictly a poke.
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This is great for ladder. I can't comment on top level viability, because I'm terrible, but as a diamond zerg, I'm not comfortable with any good gateway openers->pushes. I pray for FFE every ZvP.
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On May 04 2012 04:42 thrawn2112 wrote:
i've been trying 2 gate expos vs zerg for a few weeks now and i like the build a lot. however the problem with just copying what you see off of tyler's stream is that according to him, tyler is just experimenting with different timings/bos while on ladder. if you are going to try and copy whatever tyler thinks is best then you are more likely to find the "true" build from a tournament replay rather than from his stream.
one thing i've had problems with is the zergs who save all their gas for a HUGE muta ball and then just roll over your stalkers making the game unwinable from that point. some things that i think i should work on to counter this is:
1 better scouting: lots of thing can tip you off if a zerg is going to go muta ling or the macro roach style. if they get a quick gas around pool timing then expect metabolic boost and eventually a muta transition. whenever i scout any type of speedling build i always go obs first from the robo to confirm spire, where if i'm suspecting roaches i'll usually get 1 or maybe 2 immortals first before getting obs. so far the hardest thing for me about opening gateway in pvz is deciding when to get an obs, because it's so important to know about a spire and it's also very important to have crazy immortal production if they are going roach. i guess i will just need to improve my scouting instincts in the pre robo phase.
2 the first push: one thing i've noticed is that the sentry push can be used to scout the zerg's eventual transitions. i have just started trying to use this so it's nowhere near as developed as it could be, but something like seeing minimal lings with lots of queens could mean roaches while seeing a large amount of lings probably means they will be going muta.
3 timing of third: a quick third means relying on huge roach numbers during midgame while a slower third indicates that the zerg is either teching or investing into an army
a question for the op: when do you take a fourth? i feel like i'm turtling on 3 bases for way to long but i dont see any other option especially if i'm already having to split up my army to defend my natural/3rd. i've noticed that i cant time plus 3 attack to finish around the time my first 1 or 2 colossus and thermal range is done and i usually move out and try to do some damge or at the very least remove all the creep while expanding. maybe it just comes down to having better micro/multitasking in order to secure a 4th in which case time will tell.. but i would like to know what other people are doing to try and get a 4th.
also does anyone think that going carrier after mothership is really good? even if you are just making 2 carriers at a time if you keep all of them alive and get good air attack upgrades i think it does wonders for the standard deathball vs deathball scenario where zerg has broods/corrupters/infestors
I feel like you didn't fully read the thread. As i said i am aware that he uses different styles, but this build order and unit choices are as far as i can tell (only being able to see the vod and not the replay) is exactly the the one he used against darkforce in game one of the NASL. So it should be one of his actual build orders.
1: As for your questions about scouting, what about hallucination? It gives you absolute vision of his base without using up robo time at all, i usually get it at the same time as the first immortal, so that the first phoenix can check lair timing while the second immortal is in production to take a third quickly, but still cancelable if necessary so that i can replace it with a slightly earlier twilight/blink.
2 & 3: All good points, i might put some stuff like this into the guide when i feel up to it.
As for your question, it is all very map dependant and dependant on how the game is going and what the zerg did, personally, i dislike carriers in general, and i tend to favour templar styles as i find them more fun, and more effective in case of a muta switch. One thing i have been using lately against non-muta compositions is blink stalkers with observer running forward to snipe creep and overlords hanging around the map (maybe even a hatch if your opponent is out of position). If you are careful there really isn't much to worry about, and that can leave the rest of your army to take the 4th. I think this kind of stuff is going to become more important in general in PvZ, as stalkers are a very mobile unit that still aren't abused to their fullest in a lot of cases on these large maps we play on these days.
Generally to be honest, i tend to have quite a lot of problems very late game against zerg, and usually try to hit a timing against broods, or have done enough damage that they can't get up to a massive number of them. I really need to practice that more.
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I personally don't really like this style because of the meta including zergs taking a really fast 3 hatch. 2gates isn't alot of production, and so they will definitely have their second hatch finished in time to produce a few lings / spine crawlers to deal with this and then be miles ahead when their 3rd is nearly done or finished because you will be just transferring probes at this time. However, it's a smart idea and good because the meta is pretty much zerg playing greedy, macroing up to 70-80 drones on 3base and then maxing out on roaches/infestors, or pure roach.
Nicely done writing the guide 
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On May 04 2012 05:45 Pylons wrote:I personally don't really like this style because of the meta including zergs taking a really fast 3 hatch. 2gates isn't alot of production, and so they will definitely have their second hatch finished in time to produce a few lings / spine crawlers to deal with this and then be miles ahead when their 3rd is nearly done or finished because you will be just transferring probes at this time. However, it's a smart idea and good because the meta is pretty much zerg playing greedy, macroing up to 70-80 drones on 3base and then maxing out on roaches/infestors, or pure roach. Nicely done writing the guide
If they go 5 min 3rd and you scout it you can pressure with your 3 zealot 6 sentry and do LOTS of damage, esp if you forced them to take their 3rd before their nat w/your scouting probe. Did you read the OP?
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ive been doing this for the past month, copying directly from tylers stream. You push out around 7:30 and you can do pretty good damage vs fast thirds. Thing i noticed from tyler's stream is that he doesnt get halluncinate and instead waits for his first observer to scout the zerg's main. I really dont like that part of his build and i just incorporate halluncinate. It finishes around the same time i push out, so i send a phoenix out to scout for possible all in and his tech, if hes rushing to muta.
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On May 04 2012 05:45 Pylons wrote:I personally don't really like this style because of the meta including zergs taking a really fast 3 hatch. 2gates isn't alot of production, and so they will definitely have their second hatch finished in time to produce a few lings / spine crawlers to deal with this and then be miles ahead when their 3rd is nearly done or finished because you will be just transferring probes at this time. However, it's a smart idea and good because the meta is pretty much zerg playing greedy, macroing up to 70-80 drones on 3base and then maxing out on roaches/infestors, or pure roach. Nicely done writing the guide
Any zerg doing this is flipping coins, because they have no real way of know that a 4/5 gate with nexus cancel isn't coming, as you have chrono boosted core lots of times. Despite this, i still don't think what you said is actually true anyway, any zerg that skips gas completely gives up complete map control to this build which means they HAVE to play extra safe and build extra spines, or they could die to another variation with would be warping in extra stalkers instead of quite so many sentries, and turning the poke into a push.
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On May 04 2012 05:49 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 05:45 Pylons wrote:I personally don't really like this style because of the meta including zergs taking a really fast 3 hatch. 2gates isn't alot of production, and so they will definitely have their second hatch finished in time to produce a few lings / spine crawlers to deal with this and then be miles ahead when their 3rd is nearly done or finished because you will be just transferring probes at this time. However, it's a smart idea and good because the meta is pretty much zerg playing greedy, macroing up to 70-80 drones on 3base and then maxing out on roaches/infestors, or pure roach. Nicely done writing the guide If they go 5 min 3rd and you scout it you can pressure with your 3 zealot 6 sentry and do LOTS of damage, esp if you forced them to take their 3rd before their nat w/your scouting probe. Did you read the OP?
Yeah , I read it and I try this stuff quite often, but if they scout it , it's really not that hard to defend, and then drone up to be ahead... I just don't have much luck with these styles, not even because of wrongly executing the build :D
However, I do also agree with the style at the same time, I just don't like how late the nexus is, so they can be so ahead. I think it's really important to pressure or harass the zerg player so they can't get away with playing super greedy
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On May 04 2012 05:52 Pylons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 05:49 Oreo7 wrote:On May 04 2012 05:45 Pylons wrote:I personally don't really like this style because of the meta including zergs taking a really fast 3 hatch. 2gates isn't alot of production, and so they will definitely have their second hatch finished in time to produce a few lings / spine crawlers to deal with this and then be miles ahead when their 3rd is nearly done or finished because you will be just transferring probes at this time. However, it's a smart idea and good because the meta is pretty much zerg playing greedy, macroing up to 70-80 drones on 3base and then maxing out on roaches/infestors, or pure roach. Nicely done writing the guide If they go 5 min 3rd and you scout it you can pressure with your 3 zealot 6 sentry and do LOTS of damage, esp if you forced them to take their 3rd before their nat w/your scouting probe. Did you read the OP? Yeah , I read it and I try this stuff quite often, but if they scout it , it's really not that hard to defend, and then drone up to be ahead... I just don't have much luck with these styles, not even because of wrongly executing the build :D
They shouldn't be able to defend w/o taking lots of damage/forcing 20+ lings if they've gone 3 hatch no gas. :o. Not sure what you're doing wrong - make sure NOT to push if you don't scout 3 hatch, you can be caught in the open and lose all your sentries which is huge.
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On May 04 2012 05:54 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 05:52 Pylons wrote:On May 04 2012 05:49 Oreo7 wrote:On May 04 2012 05:45 Pylons wrote:I personally don't really like this style because of the meta including zergs taking a really fast 3 hatch. 2gates isn't alot of production, and so they will definitely have their second hatch finished in time to produce a few lings / spine crawlers to deal with this and then be miles ahead when their 3rd is nearly done or finished because you will be just transferring probes at this time. However, it's a smart idea and good because the meta is pretty much zerg playing greedy, macroing up to 70-80 drones on 3base and then maxing out on roaches/infestors, or pure roach. Nicely done writing the guide If they go 5 min 3rd and you scout it you can pressure with your 3 zealot 6 sentry and do LOTS of damage, esp if you forced them to take their 3rd before their nat w/your scouting probe. Did you read the OP? Yeah , I read it and I try this stuff quite often, but if they scout it , it's really not that hard to defend, and then drone up to be ahead... I just don't have much luck with these styles, not even because of wrongly executing the build :D They shouldn't be able to defend w/o taking lots of damage/forcing 20+ lings if they've gone 3 hatch no gas. :o. Not sure what you're doing wrong - make sure NOT to push if you don't scout 3 hatch, you can be caught in the open and lose all your sentries which is huge.
Oh that's probably it, thanks for the tip - I'm still learning I'm only rank 750-900 masters 
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On May 04 2012 05:36 Surili wrote:
1: As for your questions about scouting, what about hallucination? It gives you absolute vision of his base without using up robo time at all, i usually get it at the same time as the first immortal, so that the first phoenix can check lair timing while the second immortal is in production to take a third quickly, but still cancelable if necessary so that i can replace it with a slightly earlier twilight/blink.
yeah i liek the idea of being able to scout while also being able to go immortal first... but i think an important part of going for stalkers as a main part of your army during midgame is having super fast upgrades and blink. getting hallucinate would slow this down which makes me go ehhhhhhhhh. however it could be that my gas timings for my natural could be tweaked in order to get more gas early on, i will mess around with different gas timings and see. on that topic when do you usually get gas on your natural? i always just sorta wing it lol which is really bad. i know it would probably depend on if you are preparing for roaches or mutas but in general what's a good time to get the first and 2nd gas? i've always gotten first gas right as expo is completing and another one shortly after.
i dislike carriers in general, and i tend to favour templar styles as i find them more fun, and more effective in case of a muta switch.
I don't start getting carriers until after i've already maxed out and started trading supply so at that point in the game i'm not really worried about mutas. also i dont think going carrier means you cant go templar as long as you have a lot of gas and are basically done getting upgrades. i've tried to steer away from resorting to mothership+archons because i think it's a gimmicky strategy that zerg's shouldn't lose to.
Generally to be honest, i tend to have quite a lot of problems very late game against zerg, and usually try to hit a timing against broods, or have done enough damage that they can't get up to a massive number of them. I really need to practice that more.
imagine the standard protoss deathball... but with carriers. as the game goes longer and longer you want to be trading your non carrier units in exchange for carriers and over time you will have an unstoppable army. if i'm worried about my carriers being to slow to defend counters i rely on cannons/defensive mothersip. imo this is a much better composition if you can force the game to last long enough to reach carrier tech. (i use least 3 stargates with double air upgrades going) if i'm playing a game where i am have a big enough bank and not pressed to spend money on units i will go ahead and get plus 1 air and then ground, so that when i go carrier i can throw down an extra cyber core and the first carriers will pop out and be pretty close to already having 2/2/3
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- accidental copied post. Stupid internets. - I'll just edit this one when i have something useful to say.
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This build. This fucking build makes me crazy. You have to be so CRISP on your forcefields when the Zerg goes on for midgame pressure with rocahes... I mean if you pull it off you come out with a tech advantage and a decent econ... but the utter knife edge number of forcefields you have to use T.T
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On May 04 2012 06:30 ShatterZer0 wrote:
This build. This fucking build makes me crazy. You have to be so CRISP on your forcefields when the Zerg goes on for midgame pressure with rocahes... I mean if you pull it off you come out with a tech advantage and a decent econ... but the utter knife edge number of forcefields you have to use T.T
Well, this is true, but building placements help too. I was watching some lower level matches yesterday and one thing that i noticed was that after they forcefield they don't back their army up a little. Ever. I mean, you don't ALWAYS have to do it, it is situational of course, but generally toss units have greater range than zerg ones, so after you forcefield backing up half and inch on the screen makes a HUGE difference to the dps of the two armies, and suddenly they become one sided.
This is only a little tip, but i hope it helps.
PS i am not saying that you are necessarily a low level player, just that it is a tip that is underused.
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I don't think anyone here has really hit upon the relevant question yet.
3-gate sentry expand used to be the go-to build for protosses all over, and then it suddenly wasn't because of a few early 2-base allins coupled with the warpgate nerf (the primary allin IIRC - I could be wrong here - was the Losira 2-base roach build). These allins crushed 3-gate sentry expand convincingly enough that people started to believe FFE was the only really viable build. This was a long time ago and a couple notable buffs have come to protosses since:
1. Sentries build faster from gateways.
2. Immortals have a bigger range.
The first buff (I'm guessing) is the reason why Nony is doing 2-gate sentry expand instead of 3. This might be enough to hold the allins that gave the 3-gate sentry expand trouble, but it's hard to say for sure. Has anyone since done any testing against early two-base allins?
Now the interesting part: given the Stephano style 12 (or 11) minute roach max - is Losira style with this build easier to hold than Stephano style with FFE? Certainly, this build can keep the ~5 minute third from ever getting off the ground, so Stephano style shouldn't be an option, which is attractive to me.
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On May 05 2012 01:15 Treehead wrote:
I don't think anyone here has really hit upon the relevant question yet.
3-gate sentry expand used to be the go-to build for protosses all over, and then it suddenly wasn't because of a few early 2-base allins coupled with the warpgate nerf (the primary allin IIRC - I could be wrong here - was the Losira 2-base roach build). These allins crushed 3-gate sentry expand convincingly enough that people started to believe FFE was the only really viable build. This was a long time ago and a couple notable buffs have come to protosses since:
1. Sentries build faster from gateways.
2. Immortals have a bigger range.
The first buff (I'm guessing) is the reason why Nony is doing 2-gate sentry expand instead of 3. This might be enough to hold the allins that gave the 3-gate sentry expand trouble, but it's hard to say for sure. Has anyone since done any testing against early two-base allins?
Now the interesting part: given the Stephano style 12 (or 11) minute roach max - is Losira style with this build easier to hold than Stephano style with FFE? Certainly, this build can keep the ~5 minute third from ever getting off the ground, so Stephano style shouldn't be an option, which is attractive to me.
In the NASL, Nony used his 2 gate sentry expand against Crazymoving. In game 1 on dual sight, it was a good choice. However, Crazymoving cut drones at 18 and swamped Nony with lings just as the nexus started to build. He had only 2 sentries and a zealot when the ling flood started, and subsequent waves eventually broke the natural and even did good damage in the main, eventually putting Nony so far back that a subsequent roach-ling attack killed him off.
In game 2 on antiga shipyard, Crazymoving went for 3 bases, and Nony did a zealot/sentry attack on the third. Nony's forcefields were amazing, allowing him to kill the third while keeping the roaches and lings away. However, his army was stuck and eventually sentry energy ran out and all the forces died. A subsequent timing attack by Nony was premature, and he got surrounded and threw away what advantage he had.
In summary, gateway expands appear to be good only if the zerg player gets to 3 bases. On 2 bases, any timing attack would be a lot less effective. The most problem with this 2 gate expand is the expanding part itself; it's extremely vulnerable to speedling allins. This is the exact reason why most people dismiss gateway expands; it seems that this 2 gate expand build isn't sufficiently robust either...
Any other thoughts on the game?
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A nice read, thanks for this. You don't see many players do gateway openings, but I certainly agree that it's a viable strategy on some maps.
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On May 05 2012 01:27 Heh_ wrote:
In summary, gateway expands appear to be good only if the zerg player gets to 3 bases. On 2 bases, any timing attack would be a lot less effective. The most problem with this 2 gate expand is the expanding part itself; it's extremely vulnerable to speedling allins. This is the exact reason why most people dismiss gateway expands; it seems that this 2 gate expand build isn't sufficiently robust either...
I don't really understand your commentary.
"appears to only be good if the zerg player gets to three bases"
What does this mean? Doesn't every non-allin end with both players getting to three bases? Are you just saying this is worse against allins in general? Because I certainly don't think that's true, for the same reason that...
"On 2 bases, any timing attack would be a lot less effective"
This is almost trivially not true. The boon of going Nexus/Forge or Forge/Nexus is that it allows you to spend more on economy than you would be able to by going gateway first. However, when you're gearing up for a timing attack, you're not looking to go max economy, you're looking for army advantage. Think of it simply like this: Go to 7/8 minutes in any game where the P FFEs. You'll see that his warpgate just completed and he's got some light zealot pressure coming to the zerg's third - something like 6-8 zealots. That's as timing-attackish as you can get with FFE. Now go to a 2-gate FE build. By 7-8 minutes you can have a much more substantial army (albeit, probably without +1 atk).
"it seems that this 2 gate expand build isn't sufficiently robust either..."
Explain please. What about it isn't "robust"?
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On May 05 2012 04:26 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 01:27 Heh_ wrote:
In summary, gateway expands appear to be good only if the zerg player gets to 3 bases. On 2 bases, any timing attack would be a lot less effective. The most problem with this 2 gate expand is the expanding part itself; it's extremely vulnerable to speedling allins. This is the exact reason why most people dismiss gateway expands; it seems that this 2 gate expand build isn't sufficiently robust either...
I don't really understand your commentary. "appears to only be good if the zerg player gets to three bases" What does this mean? Doesn't every non-allin end with both players getting to three bases? Are you just saying this is worse against allins in general? Because I certainly don't think that's true, for the same reason that... "On 2 bases, any timing attack would be a lot less effective" This is almost trivially not true. The boon of going Nexus/Forge or Forge/Nexus is that it allows you to spend more on economy than you would be able to by going gateway first. However, when you're gearing up for a timing attack, you're not looking to go max economy, you're looking for army advantage. Think of it simply like this: Go to 7/8 minutes in any game where the P FFEs. You'll see that his warpgate just completed and he's got some light zealot pressure coming to the zerg's third - something like 6-8 zealots. That's as timing-attackish as you can get with FFE. Now go to a 2-gate FE build. By 7-8 minutes you can have a much more substantial army (albeit, probably without +1 atk). "it seems that this 2 gate expand build isn't sufficiently robust either..." Explain please. What about it isn't "robust"?
Okay, I guess I wasn't very clear. When I talked about three bases, I meant a quick three bases. In my opinion, a quick third base by zerg is a bad choice against any kind of gateway expand. This goes hand in hand with the second point you brought up, that if the zerg is on 2 bases, it is harder for protoss aggression to do significant damage. The zerg player would have less drones, a smaller area to defend, and most likely a bigger army. That larger army that comes with a 2 gate expand would almost definitely snipe a third. However, if the zerg takes a delayed third (~9-10min), he would be in a better position to defend that pressure.
The robustness I was talking about is the ability to fend off allins without taking significant damage. In game 1, when the speedlings arrived, Nony was ill-prepared to defend. That basically sealed his loss. He tried to defend, but failed. If he went up the ramp, he would have to give up 2 sentries, 1 zealot, 1 pylon, 1 forge, 1 warping-in gateway and 1 warping-in nexus. The robustness I'm looking for is a way to fend off these kinds of pressure/allins without dying in the process or compromising on economy. A way to make this more robust would be to warp in more sentries before expanding, but this slows down your own economy.
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Yeah, this has always been a problem with Gate expands. A 3 gate expand is more robust, in that sense, but the trade-off is a later expansion (~6.00 rather than before ~5.30). Generally, if a speedling expand is scouted you may want to go 3 gate but sometimes a speedling expand does not necessarily indicate mass speedling aggression which means you delay your expansion for little gain. Against Nony, however, his predictable play, from what you say, meant that a drone cut and flood with speedlings was absolutely the way to go (I haven't watched the games, though).
Also, Zergs can take the 3rd a little earlier than ~9-10.00, I think. Anything before ~7.00 may be unsafe, but after that can be safely held if not perhaps in every circumstance at which point Zerg is well ahead. (I think that largely 2 base Zerg Roach/Ling armies can be underestimated.) I wonder if in these cases it is better to tech, take a 3rd a little later and prepare to defend? So much of good gateway based play, I think, is dependant on good scouting, good reads, and good decisions.
Edit/ if the Z takes a 3rd at ~9 - 10.00 then that is fine. It's almost what the build wants to achieve.
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On May 05 2012 04:58 aZealot wrote:
Edit/ if the Z takes a 3rd at ~9 - 10.00 then that is fine. It's almost what the build wants to achieve.
Yes. This is why P plays gateway first. Eventually, Z will be able to take 3 bases (and generally with the right setup P probably can too). The trick is too keep their three bases from coming out before you're ready to deal with the economy they'd have from producing from 3 bases.
It's not THAT they get a third - it's the timing.
I'm not sure on the fix for the speedling allin. Maybe Nexus before 2nd gate so it has more health when the lings come to survive til sentries 3-4 can engage? I didn't see the game - maybe Nony just got caught before he got his simcity in place or with his sentries out of position. I don't think attacking lings should be able to claim sentries, should they?
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I think it's important to to note some incredibly strong points of this build. That you get a very similar army to an immortal bust off FFE that can push out between 10-11min, however this openning allows you to poke at 7:30-8:00min (or earlier/later) with a much more potent army compared to the slightly earlier zealot attacks or warp prism harass off a FFE.
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@treehead:
It depends on when they hit. Most times, speedling aggression is all-about delaying or cancelling the expand. If they hit at around ~6.00 you will usually have 4 units on the field (1z/3sentries or 2z/2 sentries) depending on the timing of the second gate (Nony squeezes in another unit, I think, with the earlier second gate). WG will be finishing at this time and most of your sentries won't have much energy for more than 1 FF. Basically, you try to defend in a choke at your sim-city while not getting pulled out of position so that some lings don't run by up the ramp into your mineral line and wreak havoc.
The only thing I can think of is making sure to secure your watch-tower and a put a probe on it so you aren't caught completely unawares. Oh, and making sure your scouting probe does not die so that he gets in for a second look.
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On May 05 2012 05:20 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:58 aZealot wrote:
Edit/ if the Z takes a 3rd at ~9 - 10.00 then that is fine. It's almost what the build wants to achieve. Yes. This is why P plays gateway first. Eventually, Z will be able to take 3 bases (and generally with the right setup P probably can too). The trick is too keep their three bases from coming out before you're ready to deal with the economy they'd have from producing from 3 bases. It's not THAT they get a third - it's the timing. I'm not sure on the fix for the speedling allin. Maybe Nexus before 2nd gate so it has more health when the lings come to survive til sentries 3-4 can engage? I didn't see the game - maybe Nony just got caught before he got his simcity in place or with his sentries out of position. I don't think attacking lings should be able to claim sentries, should they?
Even if his third is delayed, your natural is delayed too; both players essentially start on less econ. The only thing conclusive is that zerg going for a super quick third against gateway expands is dumb.
If you went for a nexus before 2nd gate (aka 1 gate expand), the speedlings will go to town on your nexus when there's only 1 sentry. When the speedling attack hit Nony, he had 2 sentries and few forcefields. If I remember correctly, he had 2 good forcefields then (slightly) blundered the third; that caused his 3 units to die. Even if his forcefields were all perfect, he natural wouldn't have survived the incoming wave of lings. Unless u have like 6-8 sentries before even putting down the nexus, speedlings can deny the expansion for a ridiculous amount of time.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
i dont know how well this type of style play will work nowadays with the recent metagame of PvZ, ill try it out and post results in a bit - diamond player
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On May 05 2012 08:35 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:20 Treehead wrote:On May 05 2012 04:58 aZealot wrote:
Edit/ if the Z takes a 3rd at ~9 - 10.00 then that is fine. It's almost what the build wants to achieve. Yes. This is why P plays gateway first. Eventually, Z will be able to take 3 bases (and generally with the right setup P probably can too). The trick is too keep their three bases from coming out before you're ready to deal with the economy they'd have from producing from 3 bases. It's not THAT they get a third - it's the timing. I'm not sure on the fix for the speedling allin. Maybe Nexus before 2nd gate so it has more health when the lings come to survive til sentries 3-4 can engage? I didn't see the game - maybe Nony just got caught before he got his simcity in place or with his sentries out of position. I don't think attacking lings should be able to claim sentries, should they? Even if his third is delayed, your natural is delayed too; both players essentially start on less econ. The only thing conclusive is that zerg going for a super quick third against gateway expands is dumb. If you went for a nexus before 2nd gate (aka 1 gate expand), the speedlings will go to town on your nexus when there's only 1 sentry. When the speedling attack hit Nony, he had 2 sentries and few forcefields. If I remember correctly, he had 2 good forcefields then (slightly) blundered the third; that caused his 3 units to die. Even if his forcefields were all perfect, he natural wouldn't have survived the incoming wave of lings. Unless u have like 6-8 sentries before even putting down the nexus, speedlings can deny the expansion for a ridiculous amount of time.
But remember that against that many lings, you can cancel the nexus and still be equal on econ, because he can't have expanded or built drones, so a slightly later expo is still fine as long as you don't lose sentries or let him into the main.
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On May 05 2012 05:33 aZealot wrote:
@treehead:
It depends on when they hit. Most times, speedling aggression is all-about delaying or cancelling the expand. If they hit at around ~6.00 you will usually have 4 units on the field (1z/3sentries or 2z/2 sentries) depending on the timing of the second gate (Nony squeezes in another unit, I think, with the earlier second gate). WG will be finishing at this time and most of your sentries won't have much energy for more than 1 FF. Basically, you try to defend in a choke at your sim-city while not getting pulled out of position so that some lings don't run by up the ramp into your mineral line and wreak havoc.
The only thing I can think of is making sure to secure your watch-tower and a put a probe on it so you aren't caught completely unawares. Oh, and making sure your scouting probe does not die so that he gets in for a second look.
He might squeeze out another zealot - zealots aren't very good at delaying cancels though. With one gate you can spend all of the gas you can mine on sentries (with a CB every now and then).
Any idea what position the zerg is in if he builds this many lings? Is he still ahead in worker count?
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Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ?
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The big problem right now in PvZ is that Protoss is incredibly predictable when he goes for a FFE and of top of that, since you go for cannon first to defend, your first stalker is delayed so scouting is easier for the zerg. The fact that you have the possibility to be very aggressive if you want to is very important with this build, because it means the zerg can't drones like crazy early game without a care in the world. I like the idea behind this, but the problem is taking your natural because like many people mentioned lots of lings can delay that expansion way way too long ...
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On May 07 2012 22:54 lInsta wrote:
Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ?
You should place your robo around when you are moving out with your first poke, and start pumping immortals. I usually get my twilight about half way through +1 armour, so that i can continue upgrades. If you have reason to believe he is going super fast mutas then get it faster for blink.
On May 07 2012 23:28 HellRush wrote:
The big problem right now in PvZ is that Protoss is incredibly predictable when he goes for a FFE and of top of that, since you go for cannon first to defend, your first stalker is delayed so scouting is easier for the zerg. The fact that you have the possibility to be very aggressive if you want to is very important with this build, because it means the zerg can't drones like crazy early game without a care in the world. I like the idea behind this, but the problem is taking your natural because like many people mentioned lots of lings can delay that expansion way way too long ...
I actually never have a problem, because almost no-one opens speedling. Also i think tyler was pretty unlucky on dual sight, with slightly better forcefields i think he would have held the nexus. Remember though being forced to cancel isn't a big deal becaues building that many zerglings hurts the zerg a lot, and unlike a 1 gate expand youare actually building units to defend, so you don't suddenly have huge amounts of money.
Personally i thumb down any map with a giant access to the natural like dual sight, so i don't know exactly what i would do on that map.
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 08 2012 17:32 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:54 lInsta wrote:
Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ? You should place your robo around when you are moving out with your first poke, and start pumping immortals. I usually get my twilight about half way through +1 armour, so that i can continue upgrades. If you have reason to believe he is going super fast mutas then get it faster for blink.
Alternatively you can also cut a few units to get the twilight only slightly after your robo; this way you can go straight for +3 weapons while skipping +1 armor. This makes your 3base stalker/colossus timing before hive tech a bit scarier.
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On May 08 2012 17:34 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 17:32 Surili wrote:On May 07 2012 22:54 lInsta wrote:
Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ? You should place your robo around when you are moving out with your first poke, and start pumping immortals. I usually get my twilight about half way through +1 armour, so that i can continue upgrades. If you have reason to believe he is going super fast mutas then get it faster for blink. Alternatively you can also cut a few units to get the twilight only slightly after your robo; this way you can go straight for +3 weapons while skipping +1 armor. This makes your 3base stalker/colossus timing before hive tech a bit scarier.
Yeah, but i find i am slightly gas starved, so getting and extra twilight and more expensive upgrades costs me a long time before i can get hallucinate out. Maybe i can rejig my 4th gas timings to get it slightly faster.
You make a good point though, having +3 attack instead of 2-1 would be much stronger.
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 08 2012 19:03 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 17:34 Teoita wrote:On May 08 2012 17:32 Surili wrote:On May 07 2012 22:54 lInsta wrote:
Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ? You should place your robo around when you are moving out with your first poke, and start pumping immortals. I usually get my twilight about half way through +1 armour, so that i can continue upgrades. If you have reason to believe he is going super fast mutas then get it faster for blink. Alternatively you can also cut a few units to get the twilight only slightly after your robo; this way you can go straight for +3 weapons while skipping +1 armor. This makes your 3base stalker/colossus timing before hive tech a bit scarier. Yeah, but i find i am slightly gas starved, so getting and extra twilight and more expensive upgrades costs me a long time before i can get hallucinate out. Maybe i can rejig my 4th gas timings to get it slightly faster. You make a good point though, having +3 attack instead of 2-1 would be much stronger.
Yeah i think you have to skip hallu if you go for the fast twilight.
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a solid guide. Thanks for the write up!
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On May 07 2012 23:28 HellRush wrote:
The big problem right now in PvZ is that Protoss is incredibly predictable when he goes for a FFE and of top of that, since you go for cannon first to defend, your first stalker is delayed so scouting is easier for the zerg. The fact that you have the possibility to be very aggressive if you want to is very important with this build, because it means the zerg can't drones like crazy early game without a care in the world. I like the idea behind this, but the problem is taking your natural because like many people mentioned lots of lings can delay that expansion way way too long ...
How is FFE more predictable then this? FFE can transition into anything. Gate expands always include sentries, the only thing you can fake is a 1 base all-in which all suck quite hard and are easy to scout (ie, if z pokes and sees sentries he knows you can't be going dt/air).
Gate expands are just bad compared to FFE whenever FFE is easy to do. On maps where FFE is more iffy or you need to get the cannon much faster then you like then this build becomes a decent alternative. At the moment that's only 2 or 3 maps though..
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nice guide
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On May 08 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote:
Gate expands are just bad compared to FFE whenever FFE is easy to do. On maps where FFE is more iffy or you need to get the cannon much faster then you like then this build becomes a decent alternative. At the moment that's only 2 or 3 maps though..
Except that zergs are so used to FFE that they go for quick thirds by reflex, and can end up in quite a bit of trouble if you actually have units early...
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On May 08 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:28 HellRush wrote:
The big problem right now in PvZ is that Protoss is incredibly predictable when he goes for a FFE and of top of that, since you go for cannon first to defend, your first stalker is delayed so scouting is easier for the zerg. The fact that you have the possibility to be very aggressive if you want to is very important with this build, because it means the zerg can't drones like crazy early game without a care in the world. I like the idea behind this, but the problem is taking your natural because like many people mentioned lots of lings can delay that expansion way way too long ... How is FFE more predictable then this? FFE can transition into anything. Gate expands always include sentries, the only thing you can fake is a 1 base all-in which all suck quite hard and are easy to scout (ie, if z pokes and sees sentries he knows you can't be going dt/air). Gate expands are just bad compared to FFE whenever FFE is easy to do. On maps where FFE is more iffy or you need to get the cannon much faster then you like then this build becomes a decent alternative. At the moment that's only 2 or 3 maps though..
Gate expands need sentries to deny runbys the same as most any PvZ build - but how many sentries are needed hasn't really been experimented with. People tend to produce a ton of sentries because they're good in the early game pushes - and because the old 3-gate sentry expand used a ton of sentries back in the days of wide open naturals with no strong bottlenecks to wall off. These days, most maps come with a ramp, or at least a choke, at the natural - so fewer sentries are needed.
The predicatability that was being referenced above was related to the timing of the attack, not the composition - namely that FFE cannot produce strong gateway aggression before about 8 minutes (and even then it's only a handful of zealots - our least useful unit against the roaches commonly used to defend).
No one yet has really messed around with getting a very fast stargate, robo, or blink while also expanding and using just a couple (2-3) sentries to FF. I'd be willing to wager you could afford to go Gate + Core + Forge -> Expand + Tech if you moved back your sentry production a bit. The point of the build is that you use an earlier core to be able to apply earlier pressure.
I'm not necessarily saying this is a good concept or that it's a good idea to tech as early as gate first can - but I'm saying that it's possible, and that I haven't really seen many people try it, so I dislike the idea that gate first has to produce a ton of sentries and thereby cannot tech, because at a point of the game where people are often making a fast third nexus with just one gate when they see a third hatchery, I think it's naive to say that you need 6 sentries to hold a 1 or 2-gate expand.
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Yes the whole notion of needing a lot of sentries to gate expand is outdated. That was back in the old days when every zerg opened gas->pool and got fast ling speed. Nowadays most zergs open gasless into <5 min 3rd hatch where you don't need a single sentry to hold a 1-gate expand (plus you can go core before forge or even skip the forge in some instances). In cases where they open gas first you have to drop forge before core and a small amount of sentries, and for those who open gasless 2-base or >5 min third hatch you also need a small amount of sentries depending on obviously what they are all-inning you with.
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On May 08 2012 21:58 TheExodus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote:
Gate expands are just bad compared to FFE whenever FFE is easy to do. On maps where FFE is more iffy or you need to get the cannon much faster then you like then this build becomes a decent alternative. At the moment that's only 2 or 3 maps though..
Except that zergs are so used to FFE that they go for quick thirds by reflex, and can end up in quite a bit of trouble if you actually have units early...
Doesn't sound like strategy, sounds like gambling.
@OP Nice writeup, I feel if the zerg opens speedling the protoss will be behind. But since the meta is gasless expand this'll do alright. There's a reason everyone opens FFE though, it's simply superior when both players play perfectly.
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NoNy always trying unique builds, props to him. I still don't understand why he hates FFE though...
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On May 09 2012 09:48 INTOtheVOID wrote:
NoNy always trying unique builds, props to him. I still don't understand why he hates FFE though...
I don't know for him, but as for myself, I hate FFE because that it does not allow really early pressure on the zerg. I know you can put cannons to try to prevent hatcheries, but unless you're playing a Diamond and lower player it will almost always fail.
I like 2 Gate because I can chrono units to put a LOT of early pressure. However, what I've found out is that it rewards good micro and game sense as you cannot afford to lose those early units to speedlings and such. FFE isn't bad. It just doesn't suit the style of play some of us want to do.
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On May 09 2012 08:15 Skyro wrote:
Yes the whole notion of needing a lot of sentries to gate expand is outdated. That was back in the old days when every zerg opened gas->pool and got fast ling speed. Nowadays most zergs open gasless into <5 min 3rd hatch where you don't need a single sentry to hold a 1-gate expand (plus you can go core before forge or even skip the forge in some instances). In cases where they open gas first you have to drop forge before core and a small amount of sentries, and for those who open gasless 2-base or >5 min third hatch you also need a small amount of sentries depending on obviously what they are all-inning you with.
For instance, I just found that by delaying the expand by about 30 seconds from the one linked in the OP, you can have a really, really fast void (or a really fast group of phoenixes). Imagine having a stargate done at around the 5 minute mark and still having 2 sentries around before 530 to FF if you get rushed. Lobber made a "not-so 1-base Robo" build a while ago which is likely of the same theme. Make them tech or build a ton of defense when they want to be building drones.
Again, this is very untested, but honestly I'm losing enough of my PvZs that I wouldn't mind trying something different to have a good reason for losing every now and again ("new strat") - rather than the reason continuously being "I can't defend the 200/200 roach push without getting way behind".
Good to mix it up a bit. And yes, I know it's defensible - but I'm honestly just not that good.
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United States7483 Posts
I've seen Nony lose a lot to heavy ling attacks when he tries to expand with this: it's an interesting idea but it isn't safe, you simply can't hold the expo vs. a heavy ling attack.
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Yes this opening is quite vulnerable to mass ling counter. After about 100 games of 2 Gate expand, I must say that it all comes down to sim city and if you managed to not lose any early pressure units. If your sim city while your nexus is building makes it vulnerable and/or you lost your early 2-3 stalkers + Zeals when you put the pressure, you're dead. But personally, I'd rather play a style like that that is WAY MORE agressive than FFE as the game feels more dynamic and detailed. I still use the FFE once in a while and I think one doesn't exclude they other. At least try it out and see how it feels. However, expect to lose a lot of games from being over agressive or having poor control. But as with any other build, you'll get the hang of it after a lot of games.
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IMO, you need the 3rd Gate against committed speedling aggression. I don't think 2 Gates give you the production to handle the speedling counter and get your expansion up in reasonable time. Also, counter-intuitive as it may sound, I think you need more Stalker/Sentry at this time than Zealots (except maybe 1 or 2, ideally your first 2 units, to hold a choke).
I've been toying with the idea of building Gate 2 (and 3 if necessary) on the low ground (after 3rd pylon) so as to already have that simcity up when you put down your expand. It is map-dependant though: second ramps and narrow chokes are good.
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ive been doing this build, and if they get a safe third around 6:30 and get a roach warren in around that time, they can have roaches just as the attack hits. The attack starts around 7:30, and most zergs seem to produce just enough, because you dont have that many forcefields to begin with. The biggest struggle i have right now is max out roaches with burrow and heavy upgrades like 2/1. This happens around 13 mins depending on what the lair was started. Ive tried a few things, such as +2 with blink and immortals and a faster third around 10 mins, i cant seem to stop this attack.
http://drop.sc/175416
http://drop.sc/175417
http://drop.sc/175418
http://drop.sc/175419 --> on shakuras
rest of them are on antiga, i know the positons are fucked up, because its so easy to attack my third, but the max out hits when im barely above 100 supply and the burrow really negates my FF.
Either its my simcity(probaby) and/or i need an adjustment in my build but i have no idea what it is at this time.
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he's changed this a lot since this thread was created. he's changed his early push to be 5 zealot and 2 sentries, and keeping the ramp at his nat defended by 2 sentries during the attack. if you search his twitch account there is a vod of him working it out in a SALT mod
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+ Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 05:58 Sated wrote:Sorry for the bump but... Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 23:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
he's changed this a lot since this thread was created. he's changed his early push to be 5 zealot and 2 sentries, and keeping the ramp at his nat defended by 2 sentries during the attack. if you search his twitch account there is a vod of him working it out in a SALT mod ... yeah, I've seen that. He's been using it to get a really fast Stargate at his natural choke instead of getting a Forge or a third Gateway. It seems risky, but if you pressure the Zerg with mostly Zealots then they really have to make a lot of Zerglings to defend and it can get really tough for them. I need to study the timings of the Zealots/Sentries better, but I've been trying something similar with a really fast Robotics Facility and I've found that if you can force the Zerg to make too many units, they can't really defend a follow up 7 Gate Immortal attack because they don't have the economy required to flood you with Roaches. I really need to work on the timings since I've only really started doing this over the last couple of days and it's a while since I watched NonY doing his opening. I would play Stargate like NonY does, but I'm really bad with Phoenixes for some reason. I especially need to go 5Z 2S for my pressure, which I haven't been doing. It would be a lot stronger. http://drop.sc/247626http://drop.sc/247625EDIT: Those Zealots really make a difference: http://drop.sc/247642http://drop.sc/247649
I do the build regularly against ~1700+ Masters NA Zerg partners (I'm only about ~600pts. but haven't laddered in a month due to laptop fps issues) to test it out and see how well it can work consistently. I feel like you can go either Stargate or Forge after the 2 initial gateways, depending on what you feel more comfortable with.
As for the 5Z2S pressure, always make sure you pick the first two sentries you created alas, they have the most energy for forcefields. In practice, I either a) snipe the third hatchery and a few units with a drone or two b) see my opponent has the third hatch up, but got enough early units that I simply back off, now knowing I forced units (It's not viable to try and snipe the hatch if he made enough zerglings/roaches to counter the pressure or c) the pressure gets completely punished from bad positioning. Usually you just need to stay along the outer edges of the hatchery, farthest from his natural so it'll take just an extra second or two for his units to come at you, which can really make the difference.
The push works nicely because it hits around 7:30, a time that is usually before any gateway pressure off FFE. Most zergs won't expect the pressure and will have minimal units to defend, unless they scouted really well. Aim for hitting their third around 7:30.
NonY's more recent VoDs show he prefers the forge, then taking a relatively fast third around 9:30 - 10:00 off mostly gateway units. Either here, he goes into some form of +3 timing with Blink Stalkers and Colossi, or for an even more macro centric game, but usually I never see him get above 4 bases on stream PvZ.
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Hey guys, i have been meaning to update this for a while, i have just been practicing quite a lot for the UKSCL and my group is mostly full of terrans which is my worst matchup atm.
PvZ has actually become my strongest matchup for the first time ever, and i am now using a slight variant of what i posted, which chronos the first zealot so that you can have two zealots out before 100 gas for the first sentry, and then doing a push with 4 sentries and 3 zealots, leaving two sentries at home. It hits much faster, which is the key. On a map like Ohana, where when you get into the natural you have a 2 FF sized ramp behind you and a 1 ff sized ramp ahead of you, if there aren't already two spines finished and quite a few speedlings you can do a lot of damage, and if there are, you can just walk home sticking to the walls and be cost efficient no matter how many he throws at you while still being even economically.
I still prefer to play robo/gateway styles as opposed to stargate ones, for exactly the reasons tyler was saying on his streams a few weeks ago: It provides an army that is ALWAYS strong, unlike the normal PvZ armies that are strong for brief periods that lead to Timing based PvZ that we are used to. Get ~3 immortals, use hallu/obs/pokes to see what composition he is going for a react accordingly. If he is going spire you already have a twilight for +2 and react as usual with blink and teching to storm while taking your third. You only have to survive the mass muta flock, then you are already prepared for any tech switch, and immortals are really good against heavy spine defences.
Will add reps soon.
Edit:
http://drop.sc/247871
Last game i played, despite terrible micro in the fight, not using my templars at all, i still won pretty handily. I decided to play super passive that game, but it isn't necessary, i should have sharked around much more, and poked, i just felt ahead from the start, and when i scouted the timing on his third i just wanted to wait for the fast +3 attack and go.
http://drop.sc/247913
Another completely normal game, i get to his base with my poke, see roaches, do 0 damage, walk home again, check he is still massing roaches with obs, proceed to take third at around 12:30, and go for a +3 timing attack and win. This is a super safe way of playing, which is much easier than the aggressive variant, but if you want free wins, at a timing before he gets a hardcore brood army with lots of infestors and spines, this is a really strong one. Behind it i am teching to collosus and should be also heading to mothership, except he was completely dead anyway.
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On September 06 2012 19:42 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:28 Payson wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On September 06 2012 05:58 Sated wrote:Sorry for the bump but... Show nested quote +On July 26 2012 23:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
he's changed this a lot since this thread was created. he's changed his early push to be 5 zealot and 2 sentries, and keeping the ramp at his nat defended by 2 sentries during the attack. if you search his twitch account there is a vod of him working it out in a SALT mod ... yeah, I've seen that. He's been using it to get a really fast Stargate at his natural choke instead of getting a Forge or a third Gateway. It seems risky, but if you pressure the Zerg with mostly Zealots then they really have to make a lot of Zerglings to defend and it can get really tough for them. I need to study the timings of the Zealots/Sentries better, but I've been trying something similar with a really fast Robotics Facility and I've found that if you can force the Zerg to make too many units, they can't really defend a follow up 7 Gate Immortal attack because they don't have the economy required to flood you with Roaches. I really need to work on the timings since I've only really started doing this over the last couple of days and it's a while since I watched NonY doing his opening. I would play Stargate like NonY does, but I'm really bad with Phoenixes for some reason. I especially need to go 5Z 2S for my pressure, which I haven't been doing. It would be a lot stronger. http://drop.sc/247626http://drop.sc/247625EDIT: Those Zealots really make a difference: http://drop.sc/247642http://drop.sc/247649 I do the build regularly against ~1700+ Masters NA Zerg partners (I'm only about ~600pts. but haven't laddered in a month due to laptop fps issues) to test it out and see how well it can work consistently. I feel like you can go either Stargate or Forge after the 2 initial gateways, depending on what you feel more comfortable with. As for the 5Z2S pressure, always make sure you pick the first two sentries you created alas, they have the most energy for forcefields. In practice, I either a) snipe the third hatchery and a few units with a drone or two b) see my opponent has the third hatch up, but got enough early units that I simply back off, now knowing I forced units (It's not viable to try and snipe the hatch if he made enough zerglings/roaches to counter the pressure or c) the pressure gets completely punished from bad positioning. Usually you just need to stay along the outer edges of the hatchery, farthest from his natural so it'll take just an extra second or two for his units to come at you, which can really make the difference. The push works nicely because it hits around 7:30, a time that is usually before any gateway pressure off FFE. Most zergs won't expect the pressure and will have minimal units to defend, unless they scouted really well. Aim for hitting their third around 7:30. NonY's more recent VoDs show he prefers the forge, then taking a relatively fast third around 9:30 - 10:00 off mostly gateway units. Either here, he goes into some form of +3 timing with Blink Stalkers and Colossi, or for an even more macro centric game, but usually I never see him get above 4 bases on stream PvZ. In a lot of NonY's recent games, he's actually been going for Stargate pressure with Phoenixes. The first game of his most recent streaming session showcases this style.
That's his most recent showcased PvZ. If you look at most VoDs before yesterdays, he still goes for Forge the majority of PvZ.
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instead of going for a quicker Colossus, just go dt (if you denied third with your first poke)
reason: Most likely when your taking your third and having slowed their third and econ, the zerg will shortcut his way back into a comfortable position. Leaving DT's a good option to harass with
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Are there any VOD's / replays of Tyler playing gateway PvZ on the KR server / against notable pros other than darkforce?
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It's a fair question though. I don't believe he plays on the KR server, so I would suppose the answer is no. That said, I'm not sure that it matters. Most of us won't get to play notable pros or at a high level on the KR server. So, I'm not sure that should be the criterion of a good build. It seems effective and is fun. That's good enough for me.
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On September 07 2012 04:19 Ooshmagoosh wrote:
Are there any VOD's / replays of Tyler playing gateway PvZ on the KR server / against notable pros other than darkforce?
He plays a lot on the EU server as well, and i'm sure i've seen notable players names there.
Could be confused though.
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This latest game is an example of what i have been doing for the last couple of months, which is adding a second robo in the event of being sure that he is going roach styles. The second robo is so that you can continue adding immortals while also getting obs and warp prisms for harass and to slow down the greater spire.
http://drop.sc/266641
Harass based PvZ is so much stronger than brute force based PvZ in this turtle to hive zerg meta game.
EDIT: I've updated the OP with a note on the wall off, but here it is for lazy people:
Tyler likes to use the classic gate/core wall off at the ramp to his main, but i personally dislike it a lot in comparison to a pylon-core or pylon-gate wall, as demonstrated here:
This DOES, 100% block zerglings from getting through, (and often causes zergs who doubt that fact to lose zerglings), as well as, most importantly, fits archons as well. On top of that, as the gap is in the middle, running between your main and your natural is much faster, which is obviously desirable. These two facts i feel heavily outweigh the slightly disadvantage of having a larger surface area on the zealot (allowing two zerglings to fight at once), due to the fact that no-one ever builds 8+ zerglings and has them at your ramp these days before your next unit is ready.
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I have huge problems with this build against ling/baneling into mutalisk. Should I go all-in just after fighting back the banelings? Or try getting 3 bases?
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First of all, thanks for the fast response. Secondly, the chat was pretty BM, so I'd rather not show it.
Basically. my push scouted a ton of lings, and minutes later I saw banelings at my wall-off. When I went to take the third (around 13 mins) with blink stalkers/sentry/immortals I was surrounded easily by tons of lings and mutas. . Should I attack with immortal sentry around 10 mins? Or be more carefull with the ling surrounds and play macro?
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Hey guys, i've finally been playing some hots, and i took this build with me there, and it is SUPER EFFECTIVE with the MSC.
here are the last three pvzs i played
Unfortunately i am still diamond in hots, because i switched quite late, but now that i am finally getting used to it i should make masters in the next couple of weeks when i have time to play.
http://drop.sc/305563
http://drop.sc/305562
http://drop.sc/305561
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I really like this style. It takes me back to 2012. And it still works. Good job.
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I completely disagree with you Sated, i think the MSC early on improves the initial push ten fold. Such as in this game:
http://drop.sc/305578
Btw that replay turned into a crazy unscouted nydus game, so strategy sort of went out the window, but the start shows what i mean.
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On February 19 2013 01:44 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 01:30 Surili wrote:I completely disagree with you Sated, i think the MSC early on improves the initial push ten fold. Such as in this game: http://drop.sc/305578Btw that replay turned into a crazy unscouted nydus game, so strategy sort of went out the window, but the start shows what i mean. True, it does add a lot of utility and allows you to recall if anything goes drastically wrong. I didn't even think of that because, the thing is, I rarely see people taking a fast third against me when I use this build. Therefore, I rarely have any actual reason to push out =P
But then you are playing a hope game, you have to push out to keep people honest, and at worst they don't over react and no harm done.
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EPT
