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@treehead:
It depends on when they hit. Most times, speedling aggression is all-about delaying or cancelling the expand. If they hit at around ~6.00 you will usually have 4 units on the field (1z/3sentries or 2z/2 sentries) depending on the timing of the second gate (Nony squeezes in another unit, I think, with the earlier second gate). WG will be finishing at this time and most of your sentries won't have much energy for more than 1 FF. Basically, you try to defend in a choke at your sim-city while not getting pulled out of position so that some lings don't run by up the ramp into your mineral line and wreak havoc.
The only thing I can think of is making sure to secure your watch-tower and a put a probe on it so you aren't caught completely unawares. Oh, and making sure your scouting probe does not die so that he gets in for a second look.
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On May 05 2012 05:20 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:58 aZealot wrote:
Edit/ if the Z takes a 3rd at ~9 - 10.00 then that is fine. It's almost what the build wants to achieve. Yes. This is why P plays gateway first. Eventually, Z will be able to take 3 bases (and generally with the right setup P probably can too). The trick is too keep their three bases from coming out before you're ready to deal with the economy they'd have from producing from 3 bases. It's not THAT they get a third - it's the timing. I'm not sure on the fix for the speedling allin. Maybe Nexus before 2nd gate so it has more health when the lings come to survive til sentries 3-4 can engage? I didn't see the game - maybe Nony just got caught before he got his simcity in place or with his sentries out of position. I don't think attacking lings should be able to claim sentries, should they?
Even if his third is delayed, your natural is delayed too; both players essentially start on less econ. The only thing conclusive is that zerg going for a super quick third against gateway expands is dumb.
If you went for a nexus before 2nd gate (aka 1 gate expand), the speedlings will go to town on your nexus when there's only 1 sentry. When the speedling attack hit Nony, he had 2 sentries and few forcefields. If I remember correctly, he had 2 good forcefields then (slightly) blundered the third; that caused his 3 units to die. Even if his forcefields were all perfect, he natural wouldn't have survived the incoming wave of lings. Unless u have like 6-8 sentries before even putting down the nexus, speedlings can deny the expansion for a ridiculous amount of time.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
i dont know how well this type of style play will work nowadays with the recent metagame of PvZ, ill try it out and post results in a bit - diamond player
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On May 05 2012 08:35 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:20 Treehead wrote:On May 05 2012 04:58 aZealot wrote:
Edit/ if the Z takes a 3rd at ~9 - 10.00 then that is fine. It's almost what the build wants to achieve. Yes. This is why P plays gateway first. Eventually, Z will be able to take 3 bases (and generally with the right setup P probably can too). The trick is too keep their three bases from coming out before you're ready to deal with the economy they'd have from producing from 3 bases. It's not THAT they get a third - it's the timing. I'm not sure on the fix for the speedling allin. Maybe Nexus before 2nd gate so it has more health when the lings come to survive til sentries 3-4 can engage? I didn't see the game - maybe Nony just got caught before he got his simcity in place or with his sentries out of position. I don't think attacking lings should be able to claim sentries, should they? Even if his third is delayed, your natural is delayed too; both players essentially start on less econ. The only thing conclusive is that zerg going for a super quick third against gateway expands is dumb. If you went for a nexus before 2nd gate (aka 1 gate expand), the speedlings will go to town on your nexus when there's only 1 sentry. When the speedling attack hit Nony, he had 2 sentries and few forcefields. If I remember correctly, he had 2 good forcefields then (slightly) blundered the third; that caused his 3 units to die. Even if his forcefields were all perfect, he natural wouldn't have survived the incoming wave of lings. Unless u have like 6-8 sentries before even putting down the nexus, speedlings can deny the expansion for a ridiculous amount of time.
But remember that against that many lings, you can cancel the nexus and still be equal on econ, because he can't have expanded or built drones, so a slightly later expo is still fine as long as you don't lose sentries or let him into the main.
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On May 05 2012 05:33 aZealot wrote:
@treehead:
It depends on when they hit. Most times, speedling aggression is all-about delaying or cancelling the expand. If they hit at around ~6.00 you will usually have 4 units on the field (1z/3sentries or 2z/2 sentries) depending on the timing of the second gate (Nony squeezes in another unit, I think, with the earlier second gate). WG will be finishing at this time and most of your sentries won't have much energy for more than 1 FF. Basically, you try to defend in a choke at your sim-city while not getting pulled out of position so that some lings don't run by up the ramp into your mineral line and wreak havoc.
The only thing I can think of is making sure to secure your watch-tower and a put a probe on it so you aren't caught completely unawares. Oh, and making sure your scouting probe does not die so that he gets in for a second look.
He might squeeze out another zealot - zealots aren't very good at delaying cancels though. With one gate you can spend all of the gas you can mine on sentries (with a CB every now and then).
Any idea what position the zerg is in if he builds this many lings? Is he still ahead in worker count?
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Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ?
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The big problem right now in PvZ is that Protoss is incredibly predictable when he goes for a FFE and of top of that, since you go for cannon first to defend, your first stalker is delayed so scouting is easier for the zerg. The fact that you have the possibility to be very aggressive if you want to is very important with this build, because it means the zerg can't drones like crazy early game without a care in the world. I like the idea behind this, but the problem is taking your natural because like many people mentioned lots of lings can delay that expansion way way too long ...
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On May 07 2012 22:54 lInsta wrote:
Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ?
You should place your robo around when you are moving out with your first poke, and start pumping immortals. I usually get my twilight about half way through +1 armour, so that i can continue upgrades. If you have reason to believe he is going super fast mutas then get it faster for blink.
On May 07 2012 23:28 HellRush wrote:
The big problem right now in PvZ is that Protoss is incredibly predictable when he goes for a FFE and of top of that, since you go for cannon first to defend, your first stalker is delayed so scouting is easier for the zerg. The fact that you have the possibility to be very aggressive if you want to is very important with this build, because it means the zerg can't drones like crazy early game without a care in the world. I like the idea behind this, but the problem is taking your natural because like many people mentioned lots of lings can delay that expansion way way too long ...
I actually never have a problem, because almost no-one opens speedling. Also i think tyler was pretty unlucky on dual sight, with slightly better forcefields i think he would have held the nexus. Remember though being forced to cancel isn't a big deal becaues building that many zerglings hurts the zerg a lot, and unlike a 1 gate expand youare actually building units to defend, so you don't suddenly have huge amounts of money.
Personally i thumb down any map with a giant access to the natural like dual sight, so i don't know exactly what i would do on that map.
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Italy12248 Posts
On May 08 2012 17:32 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:54 lInsta wrote:
Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ? You should place your robo around when you are moving out with your first poke, and start pumping immortals. I usually get my twilight about half way through +1 armour, so that i can continue upgrades. If you have reason to believe he is going super fast mutas then get it faster for blink.
Alternatively you can also cut a few units to get the twilight only slightly after your robo; this way you can go straight for +3 weapons while skipping +1 armor. This makes your 3base stalker/colossus timing before hive tech a bit scarier.
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On May 08 2012 17:34 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 17:32 Surili wrote:On May 07 2012 22:54 lInsta wrote:
Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ? You should place your robo around when you are moving out with your first poke, and start pumping immortals. I usually get my twilight about half way through +1 armour, so that i can continue upgrades. If you have reason to believe he is going super fast mutas then get it faster for blink. Alternatively you can also cut a few units to get the twilight only slightly after your robo; this way you can go straight for +3 weapons while skipping +1 armor. This makes your 3base stalker/colossus timing before hive tech a bit scarier.
Yeah, but i find i am slightly gas starved, so getting and extra twilight and more expensive upgrades costs me a long time before i can get hallucinate out. Maybe i can rejig my 4th gas timings to get it slightly faster.
You make a good point though, having +3 attack instead of 2-1 would be much stronger.
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Italy12248 Posts
On May 08 2012 19:03 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 17:34 Teoita wrote:On May 08 2012 17:32 Surili wrote:On May 07 2012 22:54 lInsta wrote:
Nice strat, i'll definitely try it. I've been doing 1gate FE in PvZ for a while now, but it's kind of riskier then this...
question.
when should i put robo/twilight ? You should place your robo around when you are moving out with your first poke, and start pumping immortals. I usually get my twilight about half way through +1 armour, so that i can continue upgrades. If you have reason to believe he is going super fast mutas then get it faster for blink. Alternatively you can also cut a few units to get the twilight only slightly after your robo; this way you can go straight for +3 weapons while skipping +1 armor. This makes your 3base stalker/colossus timing before hive tech a bit scarier. Yeah, but i find i am slightly gas starved, so getting and extra twilight and more expensive upgrades costs me a long time before i can get hallucinate out. Maybe i can rejig my 4th gas timings to get it slightly faster. You make a good point though, having +3 attack instead of 2-1 would be much stronger.
Yeah i think you have to skip hallu if you go for the fast twilight.
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a solid guide. Thanks for the write up!
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On May 07 2012 23:28 HellRush wrote:
The big problem right now in PvZ is that Protoss is incredibly predictable when he goes for a FFE and of top of that, since you go for cannon first to defend, your first stalker is delayed so scouting is easier for the zerg. The fact that you have the possibility to be very aggressive if you want to is very important with this build, because it means the zerg can't drones like crazy early game without a care in the world. I like the idea behind this, but the problem is taking your natural because like many people mentioned lots of lings can delay that expansion way way too long ...
How is FFE more predictable then this? FFE can transition into anything. Gate expands always include sentries, the only thing you can fake is a 1 base all-in which all suck quite hard and are easy to scout (ie, if z pokes and sees sentries he knows you can't be going dt/air).
Gate expands are just bad compared to FFE whenever FFE is easy to do. On maps where FFE is more iffy or you need to get the cannon much faster then you like then this build becomes a decent alternative. At the moment that's only 2 or 3 maps though..
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nice guide
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On May 08 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote:
Gate expands are just bad compared to FFE whenever FFE is easy to do. On maps where FFE is more iffy or you need to get the cannon much faster then you like then this build becomes a decent alternative. At the moment that's only 2 or 3 maps though..
Except that zergs are so used to FFE that they go for quick thirds by reflex, and can end up in quite a bit of trouble if you actually have units early...
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On May 08 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 23:28 HellRush wrote:
The big problem right now in PvZ is that Protoss is incredibly predictable when he goes for a FFE and of top of that, since you go for cannon first to defend, your first stalker is delayed so scouting is easier for the zerg. The fact that you have the possibility to be very aggressive if you want to is very important with this build, because it means the zerg can't drones like crazy early game without a care in the world. I like the idea behind this, but the problem is taking your natural because like many people mentioned lots of lings can delay that expansion way way too long ... How is FFE more predictable then this? FFE can transition into anything. Gate expands always include sentries, the only thing you can fake is a 1 base all-in which all suck quite hard and are easy to scout (ie, if z pokes and sees sentries he knows you can't be going dt/air). Gate expands are just bad compared to FFE whenever FFE is easy to do. On maps where FFE is more iffy or you need to get the cannon much faster then you like then this build becomes a decent alternative. At the moment that's only 2 or 3 maps though..
Gate expands need sentries to deny runbys the same as most any PvZ build - but how many sentries are needed hasn't really been experimented with. People tend to produce a ton of sentries because they're good in the early game pushes - and because the old 3-gate sentry expand used a ton of sentries back in the days of wide open naturals with no strong bottlenecks to wall off. These days, most maps come with a ramp, or at least a choke, at the natural - so fewer sentries are needed.
The predicatability that was being referenced above was related to the timing of the attack, not the composition - namely that FFE cannot produce strong gateway aggression before about 8 minutes (and even then it's only a handful of zealots - our least useful unit against the roaches commonly used to defend).
No one yet has really messed around with getting a very fast stargate, robo, or blink while also expanding and using just a couple (2-3) sentries to FF. I'd be willing to wager you could afford to go Gate + Core + Forge -> Expand + Tech if you moved back your sentry production a bit. The point of the build is that you use an earlier core to be able to apply earlier pressure.
I'm not necessarily saying this is a good concept or that it's a good idea to tech as early as gate first can - but I'm saying that it's possible, and that I haven't really seen many people try it, so I dislike the idea that gate first has to produce a ton of sentries and thereby cannot tech, because at a point of the game where people are often making a fast third nexus with just one gate when they see a third hatchery, I think it's naive to say that you need 6 sentries to hold a 1 or 2-gate expand.
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Yes the whole notion of needing a lot of sentries to gate expand is outdated. That was back in the old days when every zerg opened gas->pool and got fast ling speed. Nowadays most zergs open gasless into <5 min 3rd hatch where you don't need a single sentry to hold a 1-gate expand (plus you can go core before forge or even skip the forge in some instances). In cases where they open gas first you have to drop forge before core and a small amount of sentries, and for those who open gasless 2-base or >5 min third hatch you also need a small amount of sentries depending on obviously what they are all-inning you with.
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On May 08 2012 21:58 TheExodus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 21:24 Markwerf wrote:
Gate expands are just bad compared to FFE whenever FFE is easy to do. On maps where FFE is more iffy or you need to get the cannon much faster then you like then this build becomes a decent alternative. At the moment that's only 2 or 3 maps though..
Except that zergs are so used to FFE that they go for quick thirds by reflex, and can end up in quite a bit of trouble if you actually have units early...
Doesn't sound like strategy, sounds like gambling.
@OP Nice writeup, I feel if the zerg opens speedling the protoss will be behind. But since the meta is gasless expand this'll do alright. There's a reason everyone opens FFE though, it's simply superior when both players play perfectly.
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EPT
