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[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
May 21 2012 12:53 GMT
#321
On May 21 2012 04:09 roymarthyup wrote:
the only counter to a heavy voidray+storm+mothership+some archons/gateway army ive found for zerg is if a zerg has many 200energy infestors and is able to be defensive on some spore crawlers and broodlords outrange templars protecting you from feedbacks when you attack each infestor can launch 8 infested terrans plus some launch fungals and 8 infested terrans for 2food is extremely food-effective and combined with fungal/corrupters/queens/hydras (for anti air) / some ultralisks thats really the only counter zerg has but it makes the game pretty even lategame at that point


That's no counter, just attack with your massive air force on the sides of the map where there are no spores, kill all his tech/expos and recall. If he counters, go for the base trade, with the amount of cannons you have it won't turn out too good for him.

Here are the various ways I know of to counter this strat:

- all-in / attack before the mothership is out: 5-6 voidrays aren't enough to defend. A front attack is out of question due to the cannons defense, which leaves fast mutas or fast drops/nydus. Fortunately, those builds aren't in the meta game, I've only seen them once.

- early scouting the dual stargates and going directly into mass corruptors: Zerg will have enough corruptors to kill the voidrays, and once he has air superiority he'll keep it. In particular, he can camp his corruptors on top of the stargates, so any air unit that gets out is insta killed. Toss then needs to warp stalkers ( but he has few gates ), or build mass cannons around the stargates, or transition to something else ( very hard with that build ).

- denying the fourth and starving the toss

Army composition doesn't matter, if toss can get his air fleet + templars/archons on 4+ bases, Zerg has basically lost.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
May 21 2012 13:26 GMT
#322
Does pure mass corruptor with double upgrades from double spire really not beat this? o_O

I was laughing when I was watching the proleague game, because the zerg just didn't scout it all game and was still building things like roaches, a baneling nest, lings, etc. It really looked like if he just massed corruptors with solid upgrades he would stomp this build.

Maybe this has been proven wrong somewhere that I missed
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
kiklion
Profile Joined April 2011
99 Posts
May 21 2012 13:38 GMT
#323
On May 21 2012 22:26 -orb- wrote:
Does pure mass corruptor with double upgrades from double spire really not beat this? o_O

I was laughing when I was watching the proleague game, because the zerg just didn't scout it all game and was still building things like roaches, a baneling nest, lings, etc. It really looked like if he just massed corruptors with solid upgrades he would stomp this build.

Maybe this has been proven wrong somewhere that I missed


Void rays beat corruptors cost for cost and supply for supply.

Fogetaboudit
Profile Joined July 2010
United States232 Posts
May 21 2012 15:31 GMT
#324
On May 21 2012 20:35 Nyast wrote:
- this build is an auto-loss versus 2 or 3 bases fast mutas, fast as in "zerg makes no defensive units, straight into mutas". It's very risky for the Zerg, but he may be able to achieve it if he scouts your stargates in time.

Why do you feel this way? Do you mean like 7 minute Lair 2 base muta, 50 drone, all in style?

I've had trouble against this before as well, but I wouldn't call it "auto-loss"

I would categorize it as a "soft-counter" if anything, and pretty unsolved. I've only faces 2 base Muta play a few times and its cheese just hoping to catch you offguard, there are always triggers that I believe we could attempt to scout with an earlier Phoenix, Zealot Push, hidden probe, or even gateway timing attack.

If I scout no quick third and/or a gas Build I really think scouting is important.

I do agree of course that if you have 3 Voidrays over your natural and 8 Mutas fly into your main, that you are behind during that instant (but you are probably ahead in probes vs drones,) but the as soon as a good Phoenix count is established you can trade very well. However, don't overproduce Phoenix and lose to a Hydra followup timing attack. This is the kind of strategy that I have lost to before, but there were tons of mistakes I made and lots of things I could have done to improve my execution. If anything I would label very fast Muta a soft counter, with possible ways to beat it but I can't say with too much confidence until lots of trials.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
May 21 2012 15:53 GMT
#325
On May 21 2012 22:38 kiklion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 21 2012 22:26 -orb- wrote:
Does pure mass corruptor with double upgrades from double spire really not beat this? o_O

I was laughing when I was watching the proleague game, because the zerg just didn't scout it all game and was still building things like roaches, a baneling nest, lings, etc. It really looked like if he just massed corruptors with solid upgrades he would stomp this build.

Maybe this has been proven wrong somewhere that I missed


Void rays beat corruptors cost for cost and supply for supply.



Right, but can't the corrupters be massed more easily by zerg than air units be massed by Protoss? I mean I guess the problem is if toss turtles over cannons and doesnt move out until 3 air attack 3 air armour mass carrier but there has to be a timing somewhere.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
LordImmortala
Profile Joined October 2011
Korea (South)41 Posts
May 21 2012 16:04 GMT
#326
This thing is crazy man....
Zerg doesnt have any effective counter against VR and Carrier plus Mothership for defense.....
We zerg need to think of sthing goodd..
Think differently. Try unique compositions.
LordImmortala
Profile Joined October 2011
Korea (South)41 Posts
May 21 2012 16:06 GMT
#327
On May 21 2012 21:53 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 21 2012 04:09 roymarthyup wrote:
the only counter to a heavy voidray+storm+mothership+some archons/gateway army ive found for zerg is if a zerg has many 200energy infestors and is able to be defensive on some spore crawlers and broodlords outrange templars protecting you from feedbacks when you attack each infestor can launch 8 infested terrans plus some launch fungals and 8 infested terrans for 2food is extremely food-effective and combined with fungal/corrupters/queens/hydras (for anti air) / some ultralisks thats really the only counter zerg has but it makes the game pretty even lategame at that point


That's no counter, just attack with your massive air force on the sides of the map where there are no spores, kill all his tech/expos and recall. If he counters, go for the base trade, with the amount of cannons you have it won't turn out too good for him.

Here are the various ways I know of to counter this strat:

- all-in / attack before the mothership is out: 5-6 voidrays aren't enough to defend. A front attack is out of question due to the cannons defense, which leaves fast mutas or fast drops/nydus. Fortunately, those builds aren't in the meta game, I've only seen them once.

- early scouting the dual stargates and going directly into mass corruptors: Zerg will have enough corruptors to kill the voidrays, and once he has air superiority he'll keep it. In particular, he can camp his corruptors on top of the stargates, so any air unit that gets out is insta killed. Toss then needs to warp stalkers ( but he has few gates ), or build mass cannons around the stargates, or transition to something else ( very hard with that build ).

- denying the fourth and starving the toss

Army composition doesn't matter, if toss can get his air fleet + templars/archons on 4+ bases, Zerg has basically lost.
The protoss can just recall to their base soon as u fungal plus infested terrans..
Think differently. Try unique compositions.
Fogetaboudit
Profile Joined July 2010
United States232 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-21 16:14:33
May 21 2012 16:12 GMT
#328
On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
Right, but can't the corrupters be massed more easily by zerg than air units be massed by Protoss?


Just because your production mechanic is quicker doesn't mean you win the game, that would make PvZ pretty stupid. You are oversimplifying the case, and stating the obvious.

On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
I mean I guess the problem is if toss turtles over cannons and doesnt move out until 3 air attack 3 air armour mass carrier but there has to be a timing somewhere.

come on dude, lol
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-21 16:20:20
May 21 2012 16:15 GMT
#329
On May 22 2012 00:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 21 2012 20:35 Nyast wrote:
- this build is an auto-loss versus 2 or 3 bases fast mutas, fast as in "zerg makes no defensive units, straight into mutas". It's very risky for the Zerg, but he may be able to achieve it if he scouts your stargates in time.

Why do you feel this way? Do you mean like 7 minute Lair 2 base muta, 50 drone, all in style?

I've had trouble against this before as well, but I wouldn't call it "auto-loss"

I would categorize it as a "soft-counter" if anything, and pretty unsolved. I've only faces 2 base Muta play a few times and its cheese just hoping to catch you offguard, there are always triggers that I believe we could attempt to scout with an earlier Phoenix, Zealot Push, hidden probe, or even gateway timing attack.

If I scout no quick third and/or a gas Build I really think scouting is important.


One guy did this to me: fast third into fast gas. Only few lings, no roaches, straight into gas into spire. By the time your 4 voidrays are out on the map, 10+ mutas arrive in your base and snippe the stargate's pylon(s). So if I remember correctly, that hits around the 10'-11' mark.

After the game, I asked him what triggered such a greedy/risky build. Nothing special, in fact he didn't even scout my 2 stargates, he did it blindly. He would have died to any form of pressure, that's for sure, but you can't pressure with that build.

You could definitely chrono a first phoenix and scout it in time, but in that game all the flags were green for a typical 3-bases defensive-roach style build, and sending a phoenix would have let the cat out of the bag too early while you can sometimes do some surprise damage with 4 voidrays if Zerg didn't scout you yet. But maybe you have to do it anyway to be safe, and forget about early harass other than snipping a few overlords, I don't know..
Fogetaboudit
Profile Joined July 2010
United States232 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-21 17:54:18
May 21 2012 16:31 GMT
#330
On May 22 2012 01:15 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 00:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:
On May 21 2012 20:35 Nyast wrote:
- this build is an auto-loss versus 2 or 3 bases fast mutas, fast as in "zerg makes no defensive units, straight into mutas". It's very risky for the Zerg, but he may be able to achieve it if he scouts your stargates in time.

Why do you feel this way? Do you mean like 7 minute Lair 2 base muta, 50 drone, all in style?

I've had trouble against this before as well, but I wouldn't call it "auto-loss"

I would categorize it as a "soft-counter" if anything, and pretty unsolved. I've only faces 2 base Muta play a few times and its cheese just hoping to catch you offguard, there are always triggers that I believe we could attempt to scout with an earlier Phoenix, Zealot Push, hidden probe, or even gateway timing attack.

If I scout no quick third and/or a gas Build I really think scouting is important.


One guy did this to me: fast third into fast gas. Only few lings, no roaches, straight into gas into spire. By the time your 4 voidrays are out on the map, 10+ mutas arrive in your base and snippe the stargate's pylon(s). So if I remember correctly, that hits around the 10'-11' mark.

After the game, I asked him what triggered such a greedy/risky build. Nothing special, in fact he didn't even scout my 2 stargates, he did it blindly. He would have died to any form of pressure, that's for sure, but you can't pressure with that build.

You could definitely chrono a first phoenix and scout it in time, but in that game all the flags were green for a typical 3-bases defensive-roach style build, and sending a phoenix would have let the cat out of the bag too early while you can sometimes do some surprise damage with 4 voidrays if Zerg didn't scout you yet. But maybe you have to do it anyway to be safe, and forgot about early harass other than snipping a few overlords, I don't know..

Ya definitely having Mutas snipe an Artosis Pylong is an auto-loss, haha. Sounds like a tough beat.

I think Stargate positioning is really important. I wouldn't worry too much about hiding it from an overlord scout in the corner of your base, especially given the speed buff, you are probably going to get scouted anyways.

I think the best position for the first two stargates is your main, but near the closest edge to the natural, so that a single highground cannon (which you would make anyways) can do lots of protection for your production facilities.

kinda like this (lol) x marks the spot for cannon, SG is Stargate, P is Pylon, etc

WG_P_WG
SG_P_CORE
SG_P_CORE this side is the main!
........X.............................this is the cliff!!..............
WG_X this side is the natural expansion!
WG_P
FGE_X

wall^^^
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
May 21 2012 17:17 GMT
#331
On May 22 2012 01:12 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
Right, but can't the corrupters be massed more easily by zerg than air units be massed by Protoss?


Just because your production mechanic is quicker doesn't mean you win the game, that would make PvZ pretty stupid. You are oversimplifying the case, and stating the obvious.


Ok, let me rephrase my concerns in a different way.

Let us say that the Zerg has 40 corrupters when you dont have a mothership yet. The zerg then kills half of your standing air army and loses his corrupters. Zerg then makes another 40 corrupters after the trade and the protoss having lost half of his air army then loses more of his air army. Isn't this a viable scenario? Its basically the same way we have seen mech from terran lose in the past. The zerg catches the army out and trades inefficiently BUT does enough damage that the next remax can be more efficient and do more damage and the mech army just kind of dies faster than it can rebuild and the zerg slowly gains an advantage.


On May 22 2012 01:12 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
I mean I guess the problem is if toss turtles over cannons and doesnt move out until 3 air attack 3 air armour mass carrier but there has to be a timing somewhere.

come on dude, lol


I don't see what you mean by this. If I sit there for 20 minutes massing an army off of 3 base I highly doubt that there isn't a chance for zerg to do something to me at some point in those 20 minutes or longer.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Fogetaboudit
Profile Joined July 2010
United States232 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-21 17:44:22
May 21 2012 17:37 GMT
#332
On May 22 2012 02:17 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 01:12 Fogetaboudit wrote:
On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
Right, but can't the corrupters be massed more easily by zerg than air units be massed by Protoss?


Just because your production mechanic is quicker doesn't mean you win the game, that would make PvZ pretty stupid. You are oversimplifying the case, and stating the obvious.


Ok, let me rephrase my concerns in a different way.

Let us say that the Zerg has 40 corrupters when you dont have a mothership yet. The zerg then kills half of your standing air army and loses his corrupters. Zerg then makes another 40 corrupters after the trade and the protoss having lost half of his air army then loses more of his air army. Isn't this a viable scenario? Its basically the same way we have seen mech from terran lose in the past. The zerg catches the army out and trades inefficiently BUT does enough damage that the next remax can be more efficient and do more damage and the mech army just kind of dies faster than it can rebuild and the zerg slowly gains an advantage.



Your entire credibility is shot when you say "Zerg has 40 corrupters when you dont have a mothership yet." The entire strategy is based on Getting early production of air fleet and mothership to secure additional bases, what you said, simply never happens, and it's obvious you didn't watch or pay attention to any replays.

What you said about Mech, is again, stating the obvious. Everyone knows that if you trade with mech a lot, you might win the game. That doesn't mean that Mech is not viable TvZ.





On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 01:12 Fogetaboudit wrote:
On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
I mean I guess the problem is if toss turtles over cannons and doesnt move out until 3 air attack 3 air armour mass carrier but there has to be a timing somewhere.

come on dude, lol


I don't see what you mean by this. If I sit there for 20 minutes massing an army off of 3 base I highly doubt that there isn't a chance for zerg to do something to me at some point in those 20 minutes or longer.

What I meant is,

You didn't watch any replays, or analyzed them poorly.
You didn't consider how the midgame plays out.
You didn't consider the different endgame compositions, and the various transitions on/after 3-4 base.
You didn't follow the discussion very well ITT.

You are talking about mass carriers for some reason when, I've never even went mass carrier before. My composition is always Void Ray heavy with various support units based on what I scout.

In other words,

Come on Dude
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-21 17:45:39
May 21 2012 17:45 GMT
#333
On May 22 2012 01:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Ya definitely having Mutas snipe an Artosis Pylong is an auto-loss, haha. Sounds like a tough beat.


That wasn't an artosis plyon, I had 2. But thing is, your voidrays are somewhere on the map, MS is not out yet, and you only have a handful amount of stalkers, if any, and few gates to warp more. There isn't much you can do...
Fogetaboudit
Profile Joined July 2010
United States232 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-21 17:55:18
May 21 2012 17:47 GMT
#334
On May 22 2012 02:45 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 01:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Ya definitely having Mutas snipe an Artosis Pylong is an auto-loss, haha. Sounds like a tough beat.


That wasn't an artosis plyon, I had 2. But thing is, your voidrays are somewhere on the map, MS is not out yet, and you only have a handful amount of stalkers, if any, and few gates to warp more. There isn't much you can do...


this is what I do:
On May 22 2012 01:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 01:15 Nyast wrote:
On May 22 2012 00:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:
On May 21 2012 20:35 Nyast wrote:
- this build is an auto-loss versus 2 or 3 bases fast mutas, fast as in "zerg makes no defensive units, straight into mutas". It's very risky for the Zerg, but he may be able to achieve it if he scouts your stargates in time.

Why do you feel this way? Do you mean like 7 minute Lair 2 base muta, 50 drone, all in style?

I've had trouble against this before as well, but I wouldn't call it "auto-loss"

I would categorize it as a "soft-counter" if anything, and pretty unsolved. I've only faces 2 base Muta play a few times and its cheese just hoping to catch you offguard, there are always triggers that I believe we could attempt to scout with an earlier Phoenix, Zealot Push, hidden probe, or even gateway timing attack.

If I scout no quick third and/or a gas Build I really think scouting is important.


One guy did this to me: fast third into fast gas. Only few lings, no roaches, straight into gas into spire. By the time your 4 voidrays are out on the map, 10+ mutas arrive in your base and snippe the stargate's pylon(s). So if I remember correctly, that hits around the 10'-11' mark.

After the game, I asked him what triggered such a greedy/risky build. Nothing special, in fact he didn't even scout my 2 stargates, he did it blindly. He would have died to any form of pressure, that's for sure, but you can't pressure with that build.

You could definitely chrono a first phoenix and scout it in time, but in that game all the flags were green for a typical 3-bases defensive-roach style build, and sending a phoenix would have let the cat out of the bag too early while you can sometimes do some surprise damage with 4 voidrays if Zerg didn't scout you yet. But maybe you have to do it anyway to be safe, and forgot about early harass other than snipping a few overlords, I don't know..

Ya definitely having Mutas snipe an Artosis Pylong is an auto-loss, haha. Sounds like a tough beat.

I think Stargate positioning is really important. I wouldn't worry too much about hiding it from an overlord scout in the corner of your base, especially given the speed buff, you are probably going to get scouted anyways.

I think the best position for the first two stargates is your main, but near the closest edge to the natural, so that a single highground cannon (which you would make anyways) can do lots of protection for your production facilities.

kinda like this (lol) x marks the spot for cannon, SG is Stargate, P is Pylon, etc

WG_P_WG
SG_P_CORE
SG_P_CORE this side is the main!
........X.............................this is the cliff!!..............
WG_X this side is the natural expansion!
WG_P
FGE_X

wall^^^



I'll eventuallly get around to taking a screen shot of a well made sim-city, but I was hoping this awesome drawing :D would be easy enough to at least consider.
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
May 21 2012 17:54 GMT
#335
Yeah I understood.. but a single cannon is probably not enough. Maybe 2. In any case, I'm starting to think it's a bad idea to rely on the stargates not being scouted. A chronoed phoenix as your first unit to hunt overlords and scout what he's doing may be enough to avoid this kind of scenario.
Fogetaboudit
Profile Joined July 2010
United States232 Posts
May 21 2012 17:57 GMT
#336
On May 22 2012 02:54 Nyast wrote:
Yeah I understood.. but a single cannon is probably not enough. Maybe 2. In any case, I'm starting to think it's a bad idea to rely on the stargates not being scouted. A chronoed phoenix as your first unit to hunt overlords and scout what he's doing may be enough to avoid this kind of scenario.

definitely agree

I think its better for learning anyways when the Zerg scouts what your doing and tries to come up with the optimal counter composition or strategy.
Quasi.In.Rem
Profile Joined September 2010
53 Posts
May 22 2012 04:08 GMT
#337
On May 22 2012 02:54 Nyast wrote:
Yeah I understood.. but a single cannon is probably not enough. Maybe 2. In any case, I'm starting to think it's a bad idea to rely on the stargates not being scouted. A chronoed phoenix as your first unit to hunt overlords and scout what he's doing may be enough to avoid this kind of scenario.


While Void Rays are still going to be the end-game core of the fleet, I actually think going for early Phoenix harass rather than Void Ray harass might be a valid option. Range (with Anion-Pulse Crystals) and speed, will make it very difficult to protect Overlords. Spores are only 7 range, so while they'll get hits in, with micro they become a minimal threat unless in ridiculous numbers. Both Mutas and drops become significantly weaker. Phoenix are weaker than Voids against Corruptors, but you'll have yours up much earlier.

I used to see a lot more Phoenix play (which I loved), but it seemed to fall out of favor. But now with the range upgrade, they seem much more difficult to deter with Spores. I think a big thing with them is ignoring workers and going for primarily Overlords to save energy, Queens when the opportunity is good, and Roaches only when necessary. You do become more vulnerable to ground based rushes, but that would be in the face of your harassment and if you have Energy stored up and every 50 Energy is one free Roach.
Rimak
Profile Joined January 2012
Denmark434 Posts
May 22 2012 07:33 GMT
#338
On May 22 2012 13:08 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 02:54 Nyast wrote:
Yeah I understood.. but a single cannon is probably not enough. Maybe 2. In any case, I'm starting to think it's a bad idea to rely on the stargates not being scouted. A chronoed phoenix as your first unit to hunt overlords and scout what he's doing may be enough to avoid this kind of scenario.


While Void Rays are still going to be the end-game core of the fleet, I actually think going for early Phoenix harass rather than Void Ray harass might be a valid option. Range (with Anion-Pulse Crystals) and speed, will make it very difficult to protect Overlords. Spores are only 7 range, so while they'll get hits in, with micro they become a minimal threat unless in ridiculous numbers. Both Mutas and drops become significantly weaker. Phoenix are weaker than Voids against Corruptors, but you'll have yours up much earlier.

I used to see a lot more Phoenix play (which I loved), but it seemed to fall out of favor. But now with the range upgrade, they seem much more difficult to deter with Spores. I think a big thing with them is ignoring workers and going for primarily Overlords to save energy, Queens when the opportunity is good, and Roaches only when necessary. You do become more vulnerable to ground based rushes, but that would be in the face of your harassment and if you have Energy stored up and every 50 Energy is one free Roach.

So basically now you harrass with 5 phoenix, instead of 4 VR?
If so then:
Pros:
- It hits earlier
- Easier to snipe queens.
- Better map-control
- Perfect scouting of Z
- Discourage muta-play (or if he still plays, you aleready have starting fleet)
- Forces a lot more spores/queens

Cons:
- No building damage
- Forces Infestors (?)

You should be able to do 2 rounds of attack.

1. With initial 5 PHX
2. When your anion-pulse crystals and +1 will kick in (and you can do multi--pronged attack with 2 VR on the other side of map)

Correct me if i'm wrong.
2000 Jungler 66% Hecarim, 63% Volibear, 60% Jarvan IV
ineversmile
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States583 Posts
May 22 2012 11:08 GMT
#339
There's also something else to note about Phoenix pressure: you can attack queens very efficiently, and this disrupts the production cycles of the zerg. You can only get so many drones with Phoenix because of the low total energy at that early timing, and you can only really get one hatch down/force one cancel with early Voids, but you can almost assuredly pick off a couple queens and mess up the injects. Less injects=less larva=worse macro=smaller army at your doorstep.

It seems more efficient than killing half a dozen drones, which are way easier to replace for the Zerg. Figure you can get 1-2 Phoenixes, use the initial ones to clear the ovies near your base, and then go right towards their main when you hit 4 and have 1-2 more on the way. This way you scout immediately, check what the tech is, kill a queen, and move to the natural to repeat the process. Then you go to the 3rd, snipe the queen, and you've killed roughly half the production of the zerg, which really eats into their timings. You can back off and let shields regen on the phoenixes at that point, but still have them be active on the map checking for overlords that might have slipped through the crack, and they're always a threat to be able to snipe queens again further down the road or to be the foundation for countering Mutas.

For my money, I want Phoenixes first and Voids second, unless I'm using the Void specifically for defense. I would rather screw up the production than have a shot at canceling/killing a third, which good zergs just won't allow in most cases.
Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins
-MoOsE-
Profile Joined March 2011
United States236 Posts
May 22 2012 11:12 GMT
#340
what type of opening do you guys do with this build? I like to open up the double gate zealot with +1 attack because I really don't need my cyber core early. I like to put them down at the same time and this attack seems to work well and force roaches while using a minimal amount of gas.
The King in the North Fighting
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