[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…

On May 21 2012 04:09 roymarthyup wrote:
the only counter to a heavy voidray+storm+mothership+some archons/gateway army ive found for zerg is if a zerg has many 200energy infestors and is able to be defensive on some spore crawlers and broodlords outrange templars protecting you from feedbacks when you attack each infestor can launch 8 infested terrans plus some launch fungals and 8 infested terrans for 2food is extremely food-effective and combined with fungal/corrupters/queens/hydras (for anti air) / some ultralisks thats really the only counter zerg has but it makes the game pretty even lategame at that point

On May 21 2012 22:26 -orb- wrote:
Does pure mass corruptor with double upgrades from double spire really not beat this? o_O

I was laughing when I was watching the proleague game, because the zerg just didn't scout it all game and was still building things like roaches, a baneling nest, lings, etc. It really looked like if he just massed corruptors with solid upgrades he would stomp this build.

Maybe this has been proven wrong somewhere that I missed

On May 21 2012 20:35 Nyast wrote:
- this build is an auto-loss versus 2 or 3 bases fast mutas, fast as in "zerg makes no defensive units, straight into mutas". It's very risky for the Zerg, but he may be able to achieve it if he scouts your stargates in time.

On May 21 2012 21:53 Nyast wrote:


That's no counter, just attack with your massive air force on the sides of the map where there are no spores, kill all his tech/expos and recall. If he counters, go for the base trade, with the amount of cannons you have it won't turn out too good for him.

Here are the various ways I know of to counter this strat:

- all-in / attack before the mothership is out: 5-6 voidrays aren't enough to defend. A front attack is out of question due to the cannons defense, which leaves fast mutas or fast drops/nydus. Fortunately, those builds aren't in the meta game, I've only seen them once.

- early scouting the dual stargates and going directly into mass corruptors: Zerg will have enough corruptors to kill the voidrays, and once he has air superiority he'll keep it. In particular, he can camp his corruptors on top of the stargates, so any air unit that gets out is insta killed. Toss then needs to warp stalkers ( but he has few gates ), or build mass cannons around the stargates, or transition to something else ( very hard with that build ).

- denying the fourth and starving the toss

Army composition doesn't matter, if toss can get his air fleet + templars/archons on 4+ bases, Zerg has basically lost.

On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
Right, but can't the corrupters be massed more easily by zerg than air units be massed by Protoss?

On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:
I mean I guess the problem is if toss turtles over cannons and doesnt move out until 3 air attack 3 air armour mass carrier but there has to be a timing somewhere.

On May 22 2012 00:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:

Why do you feel this way? Do you mean like 7 minute Lair 2 base muta, 50 drone, all in style?

I've had trouble against this before as well, but I wouldn't call it "auto-loss"

I would categorize it as a "soft-counter" if anything, and pretty unsolved. I've only faces 2 base Muta play a few times and its cheese just hoping to catch you offguard, there are always triggers that I believe we could attempt to scout with an earlier Phoenix, Zealot Push, hidden probe, or even gateway timing attack.

If I scout no quick third and/or a gas Build I really think scouting is important.

On May 22 2012 01:15 Nyast wrote:


One guy did this to me: fast third into fast gas. Only few lings, no roaches, straight into gas into spire. By the time your 4 voidrays are out on the map, 10+ mutas arrive in your base and snippe the stargate's pylon(s). So if I remember correctly, that hits around the 10'-11' mark.

After the game, I asked him what triggered such a greedy/risky build. Nothing special, in fact he didn't even scout my 2 stargates, he did it blindly. He would have died to any form of pressure, that's for sure, but you can't pressure with that build.

You could definitely chrono a first phoenix and scout it in time, but in that game all the flags were green for a typical 3-bases defensive-roach style build, and sending a phoenix would have let the cat out of the bag too early while you can sometimes do some surprise damage with 4 voidrays if Zerg didn't scout you yet. But maybe you have to do it anyway to be safe, and forgot about early harass other than snipping a few overlords, I don't know..

On May 22 2012 02:17 ZeromuS wrote:


Ok, let me rephrase my concerns in a different way.

Let us say that the Zerg has 40 corrupters when you dont have a mothership yet. The zerg then kills half of your standing air army and loses his corrupters. Zerg then makes another 40 corrupters after the trade and the protoss having lost half of his air army then loses more of his air army. Isn't this a viable scenario? Its basically the same way we have seen mech from terran lose in the past. The zerg catches the army out and trades inefficiently BUT does enough damage that the next remax can be more efficient and do more damage and the mech army just kind of dies faster than it can rebuild and the zerg slowly gains an advantage.

On May 22 2012 00:53 ZeromuS wrote:


I don't see what you mean by this. If I sit there for 20 minutes massing an army off of 3 base I highly doubt that there isn't a chance for zerg to do something to me at some point in those 20 minutes or longer.

On May 22 2012 01:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Ya definitely having Mutas snipe an Artosis Pylong is an auto-loss, haha. Sounds like a tough beat.

On May 22 2012 02:45 Nyast wrote:


That wasn't an artosis plyon, I had 2. But thing is, your voidrays are somewhere on the map, MS is not out yet, and you only have a handful amount of stalkers, if any, and few gates to warp more. There isn't much you can do...

On May 22 2012 01:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:

Ya definitely having Mutas snipe an Artosis Pylong is an auto-loss, haha. Sounds like a tough beat.

I think Stargate positioning is really important. I wouldn't worry too much about hiding it from an overlord scout in the corner of your base, especially given the speed buff, you are probably going to get scouted anyways.

I think the best position for the first two stargates is your main, but near the closest edge to the natural, so that a single highground cannon (which you would make anyways) can do lots of protection for your production facilities.

kinda like this (lol) x marks the spot for cannon, SG is Stargate, P is Pylon, etc

WG_P_WG
SG_P_CORE
SG_P_CORE this side is the main!
........X.............................this is the cliff!!..............
WG_X this side is the natural expansion!
WG_P
FGE_X

wall^^^

On May 22 2012 02:54 Nyast wrote:
Yeah I understood.. but a single cannon is probably not enough. Maybe 2. In any case, I'm starting to think it's a bad idea to rely on the stargates not being scouted. A chronoed phoenix as your first unit to hunt overlords and scout what he's doing may be enough to avoid this kind of scenario.

On May 22 2012 02:54 Nyast wrote:
Yeah I understood.. but a single cannon is probably not enough. Maybe 2. In any case, I'm starting to think it's a bad idea to rely on the stargates not being scouted. A chronoed phoenix as your first unit to hunt overlords and scout what he's doing may be enough to avoid this kind of scenario.

On May 22 2012 13:08 Quasi.In.Rem wrote:


While Void Rays are still going to be the end-game core of the fleet, I actually think going for early Phoenix harass rather than Void Ray harass might be a valid option. Range (with Anion-Pulse Crystals) and speed, will make it very difficult to protect Overlords. Spores are only 7 range, so while they'll get hits in, with micro they become a minimal threat unless in ridiculous numbers. Both Mutas and drops become significantly weaker. Phoenix are weaker than Voids against Corruptors, but you'll have yours up much earlier.

I used to see a lot more Phoenix play (which I loved), but it seemed to fall out of favor. But now with the range upgrade, they seem much more difficult to deter with Spores. I think a big thing with them is ignoring workers and going for primarily Overlords to save energy, Queens when the opportunity is good, and Roaches only when necessary. You do become more vulnerable to ground based rushes, but that would be in the face of your harassment and if you have Energy stored up and every 50 Energy is one free Roach.