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I don't understand why you don't see 4 gates, 4-7 rax all-ins, 3 rax, et cetera, at all anymore because they are so outdated, yet you still see this in zvz. you'd think it would have moved on from never working. or i guess it does work? i think in lower levels no one goes hatch first so they have a harder time defending this stuff (and so i guess a vicious cycle is started as they think if they cant defend going 14 pool, it must be even harder with hatch first), but going hatch first is incredibly safe due to double queen block. so easy to defend with hatch first.
The reason this works well in masters is because for every Zerg that does this all in there is another that will only throw out light ling baneling pressure but expand and drone up behind it. Even under pressure you need to be on top of your game to know if/when you need to add a couple drones and when you need to commit everything to defense. As a general rule, You can't overcommit to defense if it is not a true allin. Hatch first builds are economically superior but the difference is not so huge as to guarantee the advantage under pressure. This is where it differs from something like a 4 gate. You hatch first build is very likely well timed out and refined to account for a bunch of zerglings and banelings at weird times which is part of its success.
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Nirvana amazing band. Baneling all in best on Tal Darim. Can't block non-existence ramp.
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On May 29 2012 02:27 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +I don't understand why you don't see 4 gates, 4-7 rax all-ins, 3 rax, et cetera, at all anymore because they are so outdated, yet you still see this in zvz. you'd think it would have moved on from never working. or i guess it does work? i think in lower levels no one goes hatch first so they have a harder time defending this stuff (and so i guess a vicious cycle is started as they think if they cant defend going 14 pool, it must be even harder with hatch first), but going hatch first is incredibly safe due to double queen block. so easy to defend with hatch first. The reason this works well in masters is because for every Zerg that does this all in there is another that will only throw out light ling baneling pressure but expand and drone up behind it. Even under pressure you need to be on top of your game to know if/when you need to add a couple drones and when you need to commit everything to defense. As a general rule, You can't overcommit to defense if it is not a true allin. Hatch first builds are economically superior but the difference is not so huge as to guarantee the advantage under pressure. This is where it differs from something like a 4 gate. You hatch first build is very likely well timed out and refined to account for a bunch of zerglings and banelings at weird times which is part of its success.
With hatch first, you make the initial 2-6 lings based on the initial 2-6 lings the opponent makes when his pool pops, but that's it. Afterwards, you purely drone up, even if the opponent clearly is all-inning because he didn't take a 21 expand.
The only difference, is that if he doesn't expand, you don't inject so you can save up transfuse energy, and if he does expand, you just inject with only 1 queen until your baneling nest pops. Just getting speed, baneling nest, your 6 lings will all be banelings in time before he can morph enough banes to 1-shot your spine that is being transfused.
The beauty in double queen block is that you just drone up. It doesn't matter what build the opponent is doing, you will hold as long as you don't inject and save energy if the opponent doesn't expand, and you save energy with one (or even both) queens if he does expand until your baneling nest finishes. That's not to mention you could also make more lings or spines or queens if you clearly see the opponent is massing lings, not expanding, et cetera.
It can be hard to understand how to drone up with hatch first, I know I struggled with that for a long time (i was always behind in drones to 14/14 when going hatch first). Then I realized with the double queen block, you can just drone up hard because your bane nest will finish in time for any mass bane attack, and you are safe to drone even against 14/14 ling/bane all-in. In this case though, the OP is talking about not expanding, and doing a 14/14 ling/bane all-in, so if you make pure units, you will still be ahead as long as you get speed, bane, and block the ramp and save transfuse energy.
Nirvana amazing band. Baneling all in best on Tal Darim. Can't block non-existence ramp.
Don't hatch first on TDA or Belshir, of course. Doesn't every T/P have this map vetoed?
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is this serious....?
this is sooo so old.
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On April 18 2012 08:50 dogcore wrote:(this is my first guide, bear with me here) Tired of losing to cheap styles like mass mutalisks, max roach busts, and infestor mass spines? Want to put an end to Tangs overused mass zergling build? Want to get out your mediocre league with a beastly ZvZ? Well hello there! I am a NA Masters Zerg 14 year old with the handle Nirvana, and I've struggled with the above builds. I am here to show you a simple and standard build order that will get you to at least masters level in ZvZ doing this effective and ferocious timing build. BO:14 gas 14 spawning pool 15 overlord 100% pool, ling speed, queen, and mass ling on this point on 20 baneling nest 22 overlord The essential build order is a basic speedling opener of 14 gas and 14 pool, which is the most optimal build that gets you speed, queens, and lings with an overlord as well. As soon as you get the 50 gas (which should be about 20 food), plant down that baneling nest. Simply rally your lings to put fake pressure and find a good spot the overlords cant see. Then as soon as your nest is finished, make as much banelings as possible, which should be about 4-6ish. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU MORPH THE BANELINGS SEPARATELY OR YOU WILL LOSE THEM ALL TO TWO BANELINGS!
Now rally your banelings to the opponents mineral line and micro your zerglings around. VARIABLES, AND HOW TO DEAL WITH THEMvs scouting drone: Take drones off gas when you hit 100 gas for speed and wait for the drone to leave. Then put the drones back in your gas geyser. vs 15 hatch Move out with your first 6 lings and rally additional zerglings to your opponents base. Force him to overmake zerglings, and if you see a fast spine being morphed, target it and force a cancel. vs early pool Since you have a 2 minute spawning pool, this should be an easy hold for you if you have competent micro, vs mirror This is where micro comes in handy. Simply morph the banes in a pair and rally to their base. Then micro your zergling to optimal efficiency. vs roach You should see at least a spine in base and 5-7 or so roaches. Expand and get a spine crawler. Put lings in a backstab position when he moves out. Without further ado, here are replays of me performing the baneling all in. http://drop.sc/161696http://drop.sc/161697http://drop.sc/161698http://drop.sc/161699Thank you and happy ZvZing. MORE TO COME: How to properly defend this all in with certain builds, and replays of players doing so.
for all you d*ckheads, don't be talking sh*t. I just versed 2 zergs who were favored and they didn't stand a chance, this build works so shut up and just be glad he spent his time to write this guide
User was warned for this post
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^Watch out guys. We've got a ZvZ badass over here.
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Right before you get the win in the first replay i noticed you send your banelings on only one side of the hatchery. Have you ever thought of maybe sending your other half of the banelings to the other side to do some sort of forked baneling ambush incase workers try to juke you and go around the hatchery and kite them until the spine kills all your banelings? Just my two cents haha, your build is indeed very simple yet effective! I like it alot~
Joonie
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This is one of the most well-known all-ins out there in ZvZ. Usually it's the 13 gas 13 pool though. This can be easily defended with a spine and 2 queens.
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On June 04 2012 06:40 Gamerportal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 08:50 dogcore wrote:(this is my first guide, bear with me here) Tired of losing to cheap styles like mass mutalisks, max roach busts, and infestor mass spines? Want to put an end to Tangs overused mass zergling build? Want to get out your mediocre league with a beastly ZvZ? Well hello there! I am a NA Masters Zerg 14 year old with the handle Nirvana, and I've struggled with the above builds. I am here to show you a simple and standard build order that will get you to at least masters level in ZvZ doing this effective and ferocious timing build. BO:14 gas 14 spawning pool 15 overlord 100% pool, ling speed, queen, and mass ling on this point on 20 baneling nest 22 overlord The essential build order is a basic speedling opener of 14 gas and 14 pool, which is the most optimal build that gets you speed, queens, and lings with an overlord as well. As soon as you get the 50 gas (which should be about 20 food), plant down that baneling nest. Simply rally your lings to put fake pressure and find a good spot the overlords cant see. Then as soon as your nest is finished, make as much banelings as possible, which should be about 4-6ish. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU MORPH THE BANELINGS SEPARATELY OR YOU WILL LOSE THEM ALL TO TWO BANELINGS!
Now rally your banelings to the opponents mineral line and micro your zerglings around. VARIABLES, AND HOW TO DEAL WITH THEMvs scouting drone: Take drones off gas when you hit 100 gas for speed and wait for the drone to leave. Then put the drones back in your gas geyser. vs 15 hatch Move out with your first 6 lings and rally additional zerglings to your opponents base. Force him to overmake zerglings, and if you see a fast spine being morphed, target it and force a cancel. vs early pool Since you have a 2 minute spawning pool, this should be an easy hold for you if you have competent micro, vs mirror This is where micro comes in handy. Simply morph the banes in a pair and rally to their base. Then micro your zergling to optimal efficiency. vs roach You should see at least a spine in base and 5-7 or so roaches. Expand and get a spine crawler. Put lings in a backstab position when he moves out. Without further ado, here are replays of me performing the baneling all in. http://drop.sc/161696http://drop.sc/161697http://drop.sc/161698http://drop.sc/161699Thank you and happy ZvZing. MORE TO COME: How to properly defend this all in with certain builds, and replays of players doing so. for all you d*ckheads, don't be talking sh*t. I just versed 2 zergs who were favored and they didn't stand a chance, this build works so shut up and just be glad he spent his time to write this guide User was warned for this post
I used to go 14/14, and I would reactively 14/14 ling/bane all-in against hatch first that I drone scouted with. This build is just about a build order win against diamonds who hatch first.
Then, once you hit about mid-masters, it just never works anymore against hatch first.
So I'm glad you can beat 600 points masters (isn't that just diamond with a bonus pool?) with the build. But it's just about a build order loss against hatch first on maps with ramps once you reach higher levels.
Here's some reps of me going hatch first - 15h/15p/15g. Sometimes a little greedier of a pool timing, but droning up to 17.
Here's a replay of me beating a GM doing this build (I'm mid-masters, for reference - he says this build is complete garbage for a reason and of course it will never beat hatch first by a competent player)
http://drop.sc/191221
Here's replays of me beating a low-masters doing this build.
http://drop.sc/191214
http://drop.sc/191215
http://drop.sc/191216
http://drop.sc/191217
http://drop.sc/191219
http://drop.sc/191214
I think in a few of them i screw up pretty royally in my defense, but I never lost. What I was practicing here is when you need to make what you need to make (for reference, it's 2 queens first, then lings, then spine, speed, bane)
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lol wut
infestors and mutalisks are cheap strats?
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Just let this thread die.
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Thanks for the concerns and lively discussion guys, really makes me happy to see stuff like this.
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EPT
