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United States8476 Posts
Out of all the matchups in Starcraft, PvP is often labeled as the most boring matchups to spectate. I speculate that this is largely because people don’t understand it; they see short games where random units from opposing sides slam into each other and don’t grasp why one player won over the other. The following is meant to educate players, spectators, and even casters on how PvP works and hopefully up the enjoyment factor for everyone. This is how a normal PvP should go:
Early Early Game: Scouting:
A few scout timings are popular in modern PvP:
- 12 scout: This scout timing accomplishes the same thing as a post-12 scout, except it allows you to pass through the common proxy/cannon locations in addition to scouting your opponent’s base. It also guarantees you will find your opponent on a 4-player 4-spawn map.
- Post 12 scout: On non 4-player 4-spawn maps, it guarantees entrance to your opponent's base before his stalker pops out. This allows you to scout such things as gas timing, number of chronoboosts on his nexus, number of gateways he has, number of gas/timing of his gas, number of probes he has on his gas, and whether he has made a zealot. The main thing this does is allows is judge possibility of low gas strategies(4 gate, robo 4 gate) or high gas strategies(dt, phoenix, fast blink stalkers).
- No scout: Players who don’t scout are either confident they can hold off proxies and cannon rushes without scouting or confident their opponents won't cheese them. With the money saved from not probe scouting, you can afford an extra zealot and use it to do a 2 zealot/2 stalker poke as an alternative to scouting. This is commonly done by the StartaleQ Protosses (Parting, Squirtle, Naniwa, Sase). With no scout openings, a player has to initially account for the possibility of a 4 gate even if his opponent gets a quick 2 gas, because he can't scout otherwise.
Looking for 4 gate
If you learn the hints that a 4 gate is coming, you can get in the mindsets of the players themselves when they're scouting. How afraid are they of being 4 gated? How greedy are they playing with regards to the perceived possibility of aggression?
- The following are hints that a 4 gate are coming:
- Two or fewer chronoboosts are used on non-warpgates.
- You don't see a 3rd pylon.
- There is no chronoboost on the first stalker.
- There is no 2nd gas.
- You notice a slight probe cut.
- The following are hints that a 4 gate may not be coming, but it is not definitive proof:
- Three chronoboosts are used on non-warpgates.
- You see a 3rd plyon started.
- Your opponent starts a 2nd gas.
- Your opponent finishes a 2nd gas.
- If you see any of the the following, a standard 4 gate is not coming:
- Four chronoboosts are used on non-warpgates.
- The 3rd pylon is completed.
- Your opponent mines from his 2nd gas for more than 30 seconds.
Early Game: Openings:
90% of openings boil down to either a standard 1 gate opening or a standard 2 gate opening.
- 1 gate opening:+ Show Spoiler +
Core
Zealot
2nd Gas
Stalker
Warpgates
Pylon
Stalker
The two possible transitions from a 1 gate opening are 1 gate into tech building or 1 gate into 3 gate
- 1 gate tech: Contrary to popular belief, a 1 gate tech opening is able to defend any 4 gate. For more information, check this thread. I will say, however, that this is a very tight hold that requires perfect control and timing. If, however, you can get away with it, you will usually end up in a very favorable position. For example, you will be able to hit 7:10 dts, a 7:00 10 stalker blink attack, or a very fast colossi all-in. Even if you don't opt for aggressive options, you will be in the dark for a shorter amount of time with either observers of phoenix.
- 1 gate into 3 gate: There are 2 main reasons one would opt for a 3 gate opening over a 1 gate tech opening. The first and by far less common reason is that they're not confident in their 1 gate defense versus 4 gate and highly suspect their opponent is opting for a 4 gate strategy. Before the patch that nerfed 4 gates, you pretty much had to get at least 3 gates to defend a 4 gate so many players still get 3 gates as an effect from that era.
The second is to put on the very common 3 gate aggressive pressure. By putting on this pressure, it allows you to both force mistakes from your opponent(too many sentries or losing unnecessary units) and scout him. Often you can either scout an expansion or just learn a lot from what he's using to defend your aggression. On the flip side, your opponent can read your 3 gate aggression and figure out what strategies you're limited to. For example, 3 gate into phoenix or dt isn't very viable and if the 3 gate player opts for blink, it will be very late.
- 2 gate opening:+ Show Spoiler +
Cybernetics Core
2nd Gateway
2nd Gas
Stalker
Warpgates
Pylon
2 Stalkers
The 2 gate opening, commonly known as the 3 stalker opening, is the other common opener in PvP. It relies on the dominance in the early game of your initial 3 stalkers to deny the initial proxy pylon on the map. One version of a standard defensive 2 gate/3 stalker opening can be found here.
There are a few ways to be greedy with this opening:
- Delaying the 2nd and 3rd stalker for a tech building: Especially if you really don't think any aggression/pressure will be coming from your opponent, you can delay 2 stalkers(250/100) in favor of any tech building. This allows you to get a tech structure at the same timing as if you were doing a 1 gate build. However, keep in mind that this doesn't allow you to push out as aggressively to either deny pylons, put on pressure, or scout.
- Not getting a sentry: Sometimes players will assume no aggression will come from your opponent when doing a 3 stalker opening just because the 3 stalker opening is known for being really solid against aggression. Skipping a sentry is completely viable against all but the most aggressive options and can get you ahead when you're planning on doing blink or dt builds.
As with the 1 gate opening, the 2 gate opening allows an opportunity for some pressure. By pulling off gas, you can actually perform a close to standard 4 gate, something some players won't expect. Other less extreme options include either a 5 or 7 stalker poke.
Mid Game: Picking Your Tech:
After the initial openings, there exists a period of time where both players pick their tech, usually somewhat independent of one another, and clash them in unique interactions based on the type of tech(s) by either player, the timing of their techs(usually based on how greedy each player was), and the mindset of each player. Because this guide is meant to mostly educate observers and not players, I won't go too deep into each option. For a more visual and slightly more comprehensive guide on how builds interact, check this thread. For more information on each individual style, check the guides that go along with each particular style.
The following 4 mid-game techs are what I consider to be the "safer" or more well rounded builds.
- Blink Robo: Also known as robo twilight or blink obs, for the past year, blink robo has been the "standard" of PvP. It isn't autoloss versus anything, doing quite well straight up vs blink, dt, and phoenix builds. It can also threaten base trades vs straight all-in colossi builds. The only thing it struggles with are fast expand builds on certain maps. While on maps like antiga and cloud kingdom, you have a lot of room to harass if your opponent takes an expo, on a map like daybreak where an expanding protoss can defend both his natural and blink paths to his main at the same time, you will be very behind.
Here is a very old thread I wrote on the blink obs style. Keep in mind that it is very outdated back in a time when 4 gate was very deadly, blink all-ins were way more common, immortals were weaker, maps were very different, and the metagame was completely different. One big change, for example, is that modern blink obs style gets the twilight much faster, either before the robo or directly after the robo, because it's much safer to do so these days.
- Phoenix: Phoenix is a somewhat new and developing style. It is possible to combine it with a robotics to play an extremely safe version of it. Phoenixes rely on easy harass and the inability of protoss units to easily deal with them. Phoenixes themselves, especially in the late game, are terrible fighting units. Here is a guide for further information on phoenix play.
- Robo: Robo into reaction is a viable, abet not very aggressive style of play. Many times, it's hard to tell a player is actually going for this style, because it deviates into either robo blink or colossi play.
- Speed Prism Immortals: Contrary to popular belief, Speed Prism Immortals is NOT a build. It is a reaction to your opponent's robo only play. That is, you scout your opponent only has a robo and no twilight/stargate. In most cases, this only happens when both players are going colossi. Another thing to note is that if both players are going colossi, both players should also be going speed prism immortals.
- 2 Gate Expand: There actually exists a relatively all around safe expansion build on some maps. It has been used multiple times by Oz, Parting, and Huk. The only things it will die to are warp prism 4 gates and dedicated phoenix all-ins, so it's basically the safest expansion build that exists. I might write something short on this eventually.
The following are a bit more coin-flippy: (high risk, high reward)
- Other Expansion Builds: Other expands are usually not as solid as the standard 2 gate expand or they come after aggression, such as the 3 gate aggression. Super greedy expansion builds rely on your opponent not going for any aggression including the rather common 3 gate aggression and are thus rather gimmicky.
- Blind Colossi: Versus phoenix or some types of early expansions on big maps, this build is auto-loss. However, it does quite well versus everything else.
- Blink Stalker: Most blink stalker builds without a robo are a result of the blink stalker player getting an extremely fast blink and then reacting by not getting a robo, usually because his opponent is either also going for mass blink stalker or doing a phoenix or expansion build. The tradeoff is that you can cut corners versus those builds but aren't safe versus dts.
- Dt Expand: Dts can be used to transition into a macro build. However, this is a bit gimicky as it heavily relies on how much damage your initial dts can do. A guide of this can be found here.
- All-ins: The common early mid game aggressions you have to worry about include 4 gate warp prism all-in, phenoix gateway all-in, dt into bust the ramp aggression, and ~7 minute blink stalker aggression. The common late mid game aggressions include 1 base colossi and blink stalker all-ins, usually both versus expansion play.
End Game: Colossi Wars:
Colossi wars in end game PvP are unavoidable and almost every extremely long macro game ends up in a mass colossi war with supporting units. The following is a chronological summary of how a standard 2+ base macro PvP should go:
- Double Robo Colossi: Eventually, both players will eventually transition into double robo for mass colossi production. Double robo gives you the ability to produce as many colossi as possible off of 2 base. Although you don't want double robo initially if your opponent isn't going colossi, because you'll get all-in'd too easily, eventually both players will always want to head for double robo in a long macro game.
- Forges: Once it's confirmed that both players are going into the macro game or once you feel safe from all-ins, throw up a forge to go into the macro game. There is a lot of debate as to whether 1 forge or 2 forges are better at this stage. Hasuobs is a player who has always gone for 2 and 2 is beginning to become more and more popular, but as of now, 1 is still the standard. One argument as to why 2 forges isn't as useful is that in the end stages of the game where colossi are doing 90% of the dps, +1, +2, and +3 armor together are worth the same as +1 attack.
- Archon stage: Archons and chargelots are needed eventually to act as the buffer between yourself and your opponents' colossi. Archons are usually added on about the time you take your third in a standard macro game. An archon/gateway buff is necessary, because if you try to max out on solely colossi, you'll end up dying with 180 supply of pure colossi to 200 supply of colossi + gateway/archon.
- Mothership stage: Motherships are the current endgame of PvP, only gotten on 3+ bases after both players are maxed. If you vortex your opponent's army, he will have to put everything in, because he can't fight with half his army. And if he puts everything in the vortex, you'll be able to form an effective concave around his army that essentially wins the game for you given the armies are at least somewhat equal. The reason motherships aren't gotten earlier is 2 fold. It's a huge investment and your opponent can kill you with gateway/archon/colossi if you try to get them too fast. Also, one single templar with feedback can negate the whole purpose of the mothership.
Who wins a fight?
In colossi wars, there are 4 main things that determine who wins a fight. The 3 main ones include concave/positioning, number of colossi, and upgrades, while the fringe one is number of buffer units.
- Concave/Positioning: As the colossi numbers grow and grow,concave matters more and more. A defensive position held by a protoss can be impossible to break in the end game, so the only recourse is to attack another position and force your opponent to come to you. Another consequence of this is that if your opponent gets in a defensive position at one of your bases, that base is dead.
- Upgrades: Attack upgrades are king. The +1 upgrade for colossi makes colossi take 1 less shot to kill every protoss ground unit (except probes, sentries, and templar which aren't used in combat anyways). The +2 upgrade for colossi lets colossi kill immortals, archons, and other colossi faster. Finally, the +3 upgrade lets colossi take 1 less shot against every unit.*source
- Number of Colossi: Pretty simple. More colossi > less colossi
- Number of Buffer Units: As the colossi numbers grow, small differences in buffer units end up not mattering as much as long as there are buffer units. Buffer units on different levels or lines of battle are even better to diversify colossi fire. For example, Zealot fight at melee range, archons fight at range 3 and don't take much from splash, and immortals fight at 6 range.
Out of Game: Playstyles:
Besides knowing about the game, it's important to know the styles of each of the players so you can have an expectation of what these players will do. Thus, your expectation can either be met or broken. Korean PvP is more focused on mechanics and winning with those mechanics/micro abilities. This is why Korean PvP is so 1 base/all-in focused and 4 gate dominated so much in the Korean metagame for so long. Foreigners, on the other hand, rely on more macro based defensive play and generally do better in long term games. This is why in both the IEM championships and the MLG Arena, you had so many long 2+ base PvP's. MC even said during IEM that he learned a lot about PvP from the Europeans. As a sidenote, I found it interesting that in MLG Arena, the longest PvPs occured between the only 2 NA players, Ddoro and Minigun.
Threads for Further Reading:
1 Gate Openings by Alejandrisha
2 Gate Openings by CecilSunkure
Comparison of PvP Midgames by NrGmonk
Blink Obs Midgame by NrGmonk
Pheonix Midgame by Geiko
DT FE Midgame by CecilSunkure
SC2 Strategy Recommended Threads
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United States8476 Posts
Example: MC vs Genius Quarterfinals of GSL Seasons 1
This was a very interesting PvP series that I felt demonstrated a lot of the concepts I wrote about in this guide. The games can be found here, although you need a pass to watch all but the first game.
Game 1 on Dual Sight:
MC opens a standard 2 gate opening while trying to block Genius' 2nd gas. Genius opens what looks like a standard 1 gate opening, but in fact it is a fake into a 4 gate with a gas cancel. MC sees that Genius got a 2nd gas even though he didn't see it even finish. Seeing a 2nd gas is only a slight hint that no 4 gate is coming; it does not 100% rule out 4 gate. MC, being the risk seeking guy he is, does indeed rule it out. Thus, when Genius pressure with his 1 zealot and 2 stalkers, MC warps in 2 additional stalkers instead of 2 sentries or at least one sentry. His reasoning is that because Genius got a 2nd gas, the most aggressive build he can do is a 3 gate pressure; the maximum amount of units off a 3 gate pressure at that timing is 1 zealot and 5 stalkers. Thus, because MC did a lot of damage to one of Genius' stalkers in the early game and he would have the high ground advantage in a fight, MC figured that with a warpin of 2 additional stalkers for a total of 5 stalkers, he would be able to repel Genius' aggression no matter what. 5 stalkers would also allow him to punish Genius' pressure if it were not extremely dedicated while 4 stalkers and 1 sentry wouldn't be able to chase Genius' units down as effectively. Another big reason for the stalker warpin is that MC had already dedicated to robo twilight tech in which case any units that aren't stalkers are a liability. Unfortunately for him, Genius has gone for 4 gate, the only build where MC's decision to warpin 2 additional stalkers is a mistake; he proceeds to lose as 1 zealot and 6 stalkers push up his ramp versus only 5 stalkers.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BcJoy.jpg)
The decision that loses MC the game.
From the winner's interview:
Q: Your strategies worked right from the start. Your 4-gate in the first game was successful.
A: I originally wanted to play a more standard game. MC kept blocking my gas though, and that made me think he didn't want to play a standard game with me. As a result, I just improvised and used a 4-gate.
Game 2 Cloud Kingdom:
Game 2 demonstrates a very standard back and forth macro game between robo twilight mirror. It is known as the first 3 base macro PvP in the GSL; this occurred in its 13th season.
Both players open a standard 1 gate opening except MC opts not to get a gas. This tells Genius that MC will either 4 gate, go for a 3 gate pressure, take an early expand, or is just trying to trick Genius and make him play more passively. In response, Genius opts to go for a 2 gate tech opening to play more safely instead of a 1 gate tech opening like I'm sure he originally planned.
MC opts for the 3 gate pressure option and pushes up with Genius' ramp with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers. A few things happen immediately. First, Genius sees the 1 zealot and 6 stalkers at this weird timing and might get confused. A standard 3 gate pressure hits earlier with 1 zealot and 5 stalkers, yet he sees the presence of an additional stalker. What MC did was delay his warpgates and 2nd and 3rd gateway in favor of a faster 2nd stalker. This allows him to get the same amount of units as a 4 gate but push 10 seconds later. Genius might think that MC just made his proxy pylon too far thus causing the delay and he was indeed being 4 gated based on the number of units; in this scenario he might overreact.
The 2nd thing that happens is that both sides show each other what they have at the moment.
MC's point of view: MC sees that Genius has 2 stalkers, 1 sentry, and 2 sentries that are warping in; he also sees a very late robo being built. Believe it or not, if MC is astute, he can then deduce that Genius is going for a robo twilight build. From the 2 warping in sentries plus the original zealot/stalker/stalker/sentry combo that is standard off of 1 gate, MC might be able to conclude that Genius only has 2 gateways. From the timing of the robo in addition to the information that Genius only had 2 gates, he can conclude Genius went 2 gate tech and that there is another tech building in Genius' base; the only one that makes sense is a twilight council. The only other possible likely building configuration for Genius is that he got 3 gates, just didn't use all 3 of his gates to warp in, and got an extremely late tech building(the robo).
MC's response is to expand off of 3 gates and then go into 5 gate blink, a perfect counter to robo twilight; he will be able to defend any 1 base all-ins easily. Even if Genius were going for plain robo/colossi play, MC would be able to base trade with his superior economy vs extremely late colossi and win. MC knows he does not need a robo, because he though he might suspect Genius has a twilight, Genius had just warpined in 2 sentry plus invested an additional 100 gas into a robo. Genius would have to be extremely tricky to go for a dark shrine after that.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f4jT6.jpg)
This picture is worth a lot of words.
Genius' point of view: Genius sees that MC has 6 stalkers. He now knows that MC did either a 3 gate or 4 gate pressure. The only possible followups from this are a combination of 1 or 2 of the following: blink, robo, or expand. For example, MC could go pure blink, blink with expand, or blink with robo. As I mentioned before, dts, phoenix, and even colossi aren't really viable because of the late gas and the investment into making all those stalkers for pressure. Genius as a result cancels his robo, because he won't be too much worse versus any of MC's options without a robo and he'll be better off versus anything involving an expansion.
At 8 minutes, Genius spots MC's stalkers in a line in front of his expansion and can thus assume that MC has an expansion. He immediately takes his expansion and postures in front of MC's base. A funny thing happens in PvP when one player has an expansion and the other doesn't. The player with an expansion has to be worried about all-ins, so he has to cut probes between 30 and 35. If the other player acts aggressive and pretends to all-in while expanding and making probes behind it, he can actually catch up in economy with the 2 basing player. It's up to the original 2 basing player to either scout the expo or make a read on whether his opponent will actually all-in.
In this particular game, MC decides to cut probes at exactly 30 to both most effectively hold all-ins and do a semi all-in counter attack if his opponent expanded. He tries it but fails to take into account a few things:
- Genius' sentries that he made in the early game have almost each accumulated almost 200 energy, allowing him to delay for much longer than MC had expected.
- As soon as Genius saw the mass stalkers from MC, he threw up a robo as he knew he needed a tech advantage to defend MC's attack as MC would have the numbers advantage with his 2nd base mining for a longer time.
- MC went the wrong way, wasting too much time trying to bust the ramp instead of attacking from the side.
- MC underestimated the defensive concave advantage Genius would have on Cloud Kingdom.
Genius gets 2 immortals up and it no longer becomes possible to break him. Thus, MC goes back to making probes and adding a robo plus additional gas. As soon as MC backs off and relieves the pressure, Genius adds 2 gas, a forge, and a robo bay, preparing for the late game. MC also adds all his gas and a robo bay, but opts to delay his forge until later. MC is the first to add a 2nd robo followed by a forge; Genius adds his 2nd robo shortly after, which turns this game into a standard 2 base/2 robo/1 forge macro game.
The differences between the 2 armies is very minimal. One important thing to note is that Genius 4 more immortals and 6 fewer stalkers compared to MC. This gives MC map control, allowing him to pick off pylons and kill rocks freely while spreading his own pylons. On the other hand, in a big fight, this will give Genius a small advantage.
With his advantage, Genius takes his 3rd at 17 minutes while MC takes his at 18 minutes. Genius begins adding cannons in his minerals lines as a precaution versus possible dts. Genius fights a bad battle and ends up 30 supply behind, but he still holds the upgrade and unit composition advantage. MC goes for the killing blow, with 30 supply up. However, his unit supply advantage of 30 supply up and colossi number advantage of 8 to 7 isn't able to overcome Genius' unit composition advantage of more immortals vs more stalkers, his upgrade advantage of +2 vs +1, and his army resupply advantage(MC had no proxy pylon to reinforce. As with most late game PvPs, the game is decided with one fight and Genius stomps MC with his resulting higher colossi count and archon reinforcements.
Game 3 Entombed Valley:
MC opts for a 1 gate stargate opening while Genius goes for another fake gas into 4 gate opening. This game is a good demonstration of how a 1 gate opening can hold a 4 gate with perfect control. MC ends up way ahead, killing 3 zealots and 3 stalkers while only losing a plyon and a stalker.
MC then decides to save up phoenix and add a gateway to go for a phoenix 4 gate all-in. I can see his reasoning in that one of Genius' best options in that scenario was to go for an expansion build and hope that MC also went for an expansion or robo followup so that he couldn't punish it. However, it was a game losing decision as Genius has 2 sentries ready to block his ramp(because he scouted the phoenix with a scouting zealot) and later rolls MC over with a colossi plus a bunch of other random units.
Now, any decently high level protoss player can tell you that phoenix versus robo, especially a robo player who makes 2 immortals then a colossi, puts you in a very favorable position. The strength of phoenix vs robo does not lie in direct fighting power of the phoenix vs robo units; rather, phoenix can harass the robo player's mineral line without fear of retaliation from robo units. If the robo player decides to all-in, the phoenix player should be able to defend with just the sheer number of units he has with a normal economy versus a damaged economy. Because MC chose not to do any economic damage, this concept didn't apply in this game and Genius was able to win.
If MC had instead chosen to begin harassing/scouting with 2-3 phoenix, he would be able to kill probes, perhaps a sentry, and scout whether his all-in would succeed or not. If Genius had expanded, MC could have still all-in'd successfully vs an expansion build given how far ahead he was. Even in the worst case scenario where Genius followed up with a blink stalker opening, Genius' blink would have been delayed because of his 4 gate and MC could have still gone into the macro game with a huge lead. Personally, I believe MC committed to the phoenix 4 gate all-in, because all-ins are just simply his style or he specifically prepared this all-in on a map where expansion plays are popular and just stuck to it, not willing to adapt to the circumstances.
MC's movements with his phoenix also lead me to believe that he is inexperienced with them. In fact, this is his first and only game I've ever seen where he has gone phoenix in a PvP. He was never in a good position to harass probes or keep track of Genius' army; he just seemed confused after his attempt at an all-in failed. He even was caught with all his phoenix in the middle of the map as Genius walked up his ramp and killed him. In fact, I believe MC could have defended Genius' attack if the phoenix were there by targeting the Colossi with both the immortal and the phoenix as it was trying to stomp on the forcefields. Then, when the colossi died, MC could forcefield again, cutting Genius' army in half.
Anyways, Genius 3-0 MC
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Jesus kevin. You must have really hurt that finger!
Going to read when I get a chance. Just wanted to say that this looks very impressive and long. Appreciate it!
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Great guide, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to explain to people how PvP isn't a coinflip matchup in the slightest
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Italy12246 Posts
Monk, have my babies.
Actually all you blues, have my babies. Thank you so much!
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So helpful, I die to so many different builds when I play PvP. This is a great overview of the options available, as well as how to properly execute/engage. I particularly enjoyed the analysis of Genius vs MC, well done!
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Wow, nice write-up. I support this idea a lot, because it's so annoying to listen to casters during a PvP, they're just so clueless, only exceptions are wolf and artosis that have something meaningfull to say about it.
Cheers man, interesting read, very informative!
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Man, i love blueposts every day of the week
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That's an incredible amount of information you put together, I didn't know what I was doing tonight anyway, going to study this !
Thank you very much ! :D
Edit : could'nt wait, read it all, such an intersting read. Wonder if we should tweet that to some casters, so they can use it while doing their job, because I'm sure they don't know all, and if they do, they definitly should enlight their knowledge and not just say random things.
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Sick guide yo, i been having pvp trouble for the longest.....
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Decent overview despite disagreeing with a few points here and there.
For example noting that both players need to go speed prism immortals if it's colossi vs colossi is a very bold statement. Warp prism is still quite expensive and fragile.
I think it's also very important to note that at some maps blink obs is practically an unbeatable strat. Maps like shakuras and antiga for example the angles between nat and main are so good for blink obs that I don't think any strat can compete with it. Blink obs is only really countered by a FE or robo into FE on many maps and if the cliffs are good enough those are even behind vs blink obs too.
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Awesome guide man. Can you please change the color of MC text from red into like a dark red or green or something? It is difficult to read.
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Dude lol this is so well written bro XD I kinda knew pretty much everything you said but I couldn't stop reading because it was so well written XD great job dude =]
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You have such high-level guides 
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Thx for the article. That was very interesting.
Hope to see the same about PvT. =)
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Wow I play zerg but man this was interesting. I had no idea the amount of tactics went into pvp. Split second reads, fakes, and of course some coinflips. Very nice
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The following is meant to educate players, spectators, and even casters on how PvP works
Especially casters. Every time I watch a casted PvP with friends, I have to do the commentating because this is the match-up that casters understand the least. It's too bad for them because it's actually a match-up where you can look like a total bawss, predicting things with great accuracy. Sadly, the only thing that casters seem to know about PvP is that you need sentries to defend a 4 gate, that players usually go blink robo afterwards and that colossi are good lategame.
Great guide monk, really liked your MC vs Genius analysis. Third game was easy win for MC if he didn't have his phoenix in the middle of the map T.T. I was literally screaming behind my computer "PULL THOSE F$*^!ing phoenixes back MC !" before the final fight
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Great thread! I am just learning Toss now and threads like this really helps to understand the matchup.
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On April 15 2012 04:42 OrbitalPlane wrote:
Thx for the article. That was very interesting.
Hope to see the same about PvT. =)
Me too. I love PvP and understand the matchup well. But my understanding of PvZ and PvT are more limited.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 15 2012 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 04:42 OrbitalPlane wrote:
Thx for the article. That was very interesting.
Hope to see the same about PvT. =) Me too. I love PvP and understand the matchup well. But my understanding of PvZ and PvT are more limited.
Probably won't happen as PvT and PvZ are both much more complex than PvP and it would take way longer. There were some talks about a PvZ guide by me, cecil, and alej, but that project is on hold for now.
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Well written! Really nice.
Greetings.
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Great overview on PvP and some really nice analysis on the MC Genius match. I really hate the way people judge PvP, and fail to notice how much it's evolving and developing. It's not a perfect matchup, but as a Protoss i always learn new things about PvP when I'm watching or playing it. The match up is surprisingly complex and it's frustrating when people don't educate themselves on PvP and say dumb statements that were true like 6 months ago.
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Finally got to reading this today, great overview monk!
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On April 14 2012 20:53 NrGmonk wrote:
: Players who don’t scout are either confident they can hold off proxies and . With the money saved from not probe scouting, you can afford an extra zealot and use it to do a 2 zealot/2 stalker poke as an alternative to scouting.
There seems to be something missing here.
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Monk`s guides never fail to deliver! Tks for the write-up.
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This is an incredible write-up.
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United States8476 Posts
Can someone link this on reddit? I don't have an account.
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Really glad to see this! Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks, NrGmonk!!
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United States8476 Posts
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Holy shit, this is an awesome guide, you're really raising the bar with this thread! Keep it up! :D
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On April 14 2012 21:40 MateShade wrote:
Great guide, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to explain to people how PvP isn't a coinflip matchup in the slightest
PvP is a kind of a coinflip matchup depending on the game because a player must choose his tech path blindly and there are a lot of build order losses/disadvantages. Examples:
Like one player goes blink the other goes phoenix. gg for the phoenix guy.
Player opens phoenix and the other player opens DT's - gg for the phoenix guy.
Player opens 3 gate blink obs and the other guy opens 4 gate blink - gg for the robo guy.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 15 2012 16:48 Janders wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 21:40 MateShade wrote:
Great guide, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to explain to people how PvP isn't a coinflip matchup in the slightest PvP is a kind of a coinflip matchup depending on the game because a player must choose his tech path blindly and there are a lot of build order losses/disadvantages. Examples: Like one player goes blink the other goes phoenix. gg for the phoenix guy. Player opens phoenix and the other player opens DT's - gg for the phoenix guy. Player opens 3 gate blink obs and the other guy opens 4 gate blink - gg for the robo guy.
Or not
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This is amazing!! I especially liked the MC v Genius analysis, there's so much more going on there than I was aware of!
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you forgot the hidden 2star gate switch into mass voids lol. i actually lost to that opening phoenixes because i missed scouting it......... don't ask!
very nice write-up monk
also i really like that you stressed that you shouldn't go speed immortal drop on a whim. can't tell you how many times i've run into that going 1g sg phoenix and got flamed for having luck boxed into a free win :D
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seriously why are you cecil and alej playing protoss? all the good guides are for toss jesus christ ! :p good writup 
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On April 16 2012 04:40 piiiT wrote:seriously why are you cecil and alej playing protoss? all the good guides are for toss jesus christ ! :p good writup
i could prob drop a few zvp guides but my brothers would shun me :D
edit:
On April 15 2012 16:58 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 16:48 Janders wrote:On April 14 2012 21:40 MateShade wrote:
Great guide, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to explain to people how PvP isn't a coinflip matchup in the slightest PvP is a kind of a coinflip matchup depending on the game because a player must choose his tech path blindly and there are a lot of build order losses/disadvantages. Examples: Like one player goes blink the other goes phoenix. gg for the phoenix guy. Player opens phoenix and the other player opens DT's - gg for the phoenix guy. Player opens 3 gate blink obs and the other guy opens 4 gate blink - gg for the robo guy. Or not
XD XD XD <3 <3 <3
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On April 15 2012 16:58 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 16:48 Janders wrote:On April 14 2012 21:40 MateShade wrote:
Great guide, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to explain to people how PvP isn't a coinflip matchup in the slightest PvP is a kind of a coinflip matchup depending on the game because a player must choose his tech path blindly and there are a lot of build order losses/disadvantages. Examples: Like one player goes blink the other goes phoenix. gg for the phoenix guy. Player opens phoenix and the other player opens DT's - gg for the phoenix guy. Player opens 3 gate blink obs and the other guy opens 4 gate blink - gg for the robo guy. Or not
or not what?
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On April 16 2012 07:21 Janders wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 16:58 NrGmonk wrote:On April 15 2012 16:48 Janders wrote:On April 14 2012 21:40 MateShade wrote:
Great guide, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to explain to people how PvP isn't a coinflip matchup in the slightest PvP is a kind of a coinflip matchup depending on the game because a player must choose his tech path blindly and there are a lot of build order losses/disadvantages. Examples: Like one player goes blink the other goes phoenix. gg for the phoenix guy. Player opens phoenix and the other player opens DT's - gg for the phoenix guy. Player opens 3 gate blink obs and the other guy opens 4 gate blink - gg for the robo guy. Or not or not what?
Your whole post is wrong.
If you replace "gg" by "disadvantage" in your post, then maybe there is room for discussion.
Even then, doesn't really mean anything. There are greedy phoenix builds which die to DTs and safe phoenix builds which are good against blink and dts. Same for blink/obs.
To be frank I expect clarification from your post rather then monk's "or not".
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All of your posts are gold. I wish you played more T! ha
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Awesome! I had a month or so off from playing and PvP went from my best Protoss matchup (where I play Toss that is, TvP is my best matchup involving Toss ) to probably my worst. Everything has just changed. This guide clarifies a lot of things for me. I've won all of the PvPs I've played since reading this .
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good god, what a read, this is a beautiful guide. I have no idea how I went 2 days without seeing this.
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Wow, you completely changed my views on PvP. Now, I wish that someone would be able to do that for every other match up for the current metagame, but it's a lot to ask for.
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Russian Federation164 Posts
On April 17 2012 10:27 cskalias.pbe wrote:
All of your posts are gold. I wish you played more T! ha
'gold' may sound insulting to such a skilled player  :D
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You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. There is always something to learn in PvP.
It is great to have dedicated protoss players always create awesome and enlightening guides. I am proud of my protoss brethren.
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Stop making PvP like it is extremely difficult.
Every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult.
On April 17 2012 19:21 Laserist wrote:
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. There is always something to learn in PvP.
It is great to have dedicated protoss players always create awesome and enlightening guides. I am proud of my protoss brethren.
There is always something to learn in
TvT
TvZ
TvP
ZvT
ZvZ
ZvP
PvT
PvZ
PvP
There is always something to learn in all 9 match ups, not just PvP.
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On April 14 2012 20:53 NrGmonk wrote:
With the money saved from not probe scouting, you can afford an extra zealot and use it to do a 2 zealot/2 stalker poke as an alternative to scouting. This is commonly done by the StartaleQ Protosses (Parting, Squirtle, Naniwa, Sase).
Interested in how this push works, do you start the first zealot before the core in order to get a good timing on the stalker after 2 zealots? also is everything else just as normal with a 1gate tech after this poke? I haven't had much chance to watch these players' pvp.
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HOLY SHIT!
Amazing guide on the best match-up in SC2 :D
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 18 2012 00:12 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Stop making PvP like it is extremely difficult. Every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult. Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 19:21 Laserist wrote:
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. There is always something to learn in PvP.
It is great to have dedicated protoss players always create awesome and enlightening guides. I am proud of my protoss brethren. There is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP There is always something to learn in all 9 match ups, not just PvP.
Ofc there is always something to learn for each matchup. There is almost a consensus on the least developed and discovered MU is PvP. So there is always something to learn more in PvP than others imho.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 18 2012 00:12 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Stop making PvP like it is extremely difficult. Every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult. Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 19:21 Laserist wrote:
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. There is always something to learn in PvP.
It is great to have dedicated protoss players always create awesome and enlightening guides. I am proud of my protoss brethren. There is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP There is always something to learn in all 9 match ups, not just PvP.
lol what's the point of this post?
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Wow this guide is incredible. I've been avoiding PvP for ages (just playing customs so I don't queue PvP lol) but I may actually give it a try now.
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Man... you have certainly kept and reinforced your reputation for great guides.
Considering that I play Protoss, I have learned a lot from this. Protoss has always been my most hated matchup, but the understanding of it as increased so much from this guide that maybe this will change in the future. Also, as a new caster, thank you for the information in that regard
Thank you.
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On April 18 2012 08:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 00:12 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Stop making PvP like it is extremely difficult. Every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult. On April 17 2012 19:21 Laserist wrote:
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. There is always something to learn in PvP.
It is great to have dedicated protoss players always create awesome and enlightening guides. I am proud of my protoss brethren. There is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP There is always something to learn in all 9 match ups, not just PvP. lol what's the point of this post?
The point is to tell people to stop making PvP look like it is extremely difficult. Because every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult, and that there is always something to learn in
TvT
TvZ
TvP
ZvT
ZvZ
ZvP
PvT
PvZ
PvP
Not just PvP.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 18 2012 10:13 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 08:59 NrGmonk wrote:On April 18 2012 00:12 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Stop making PvP like it is extremely difficult. Every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult. On April 17 2012 19:21 Laserist wrote:
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. There is always something to learn in PvP.
It is great to have dedicated protoss players always create awesome and enlightening guides. I am proud of my protoss brethren. There is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP There is always something to learn in all 9 match ups, not just PvP. lol what's the point of this post? The point is to tell people to stop making PvP look like it is extremely difficult. Because every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult, and that there is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP Not just PvP.
Who's doing that? Why are mirror matchups more tricky and difficult? Why are you listing every matchup in your posts?
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On April 18 2012 10:22 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 10:13 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:On April 18 2012 08:59 NrGmonk wrote:On April 18 2012 00:12 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Stop making PvP like it is extremely difficult. Every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult. On April 17 2012 19:21 Laserist wrote:
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. There is always something to learn in PvP.
It is great to have dedicated protoss players always create awesome and enlightening guides. I am proud of my protoss brethren. There is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP There is always something to learn in all 9 match ups, not just PvP. lol what's the point of this post? The point is to tell people to stop making PvP look like it is extremely difficult. Because every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult, and that there is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP Not just PvP. Who's doing that? Why are mirror matchups more tricky and difficult? Why are you listing every matchup in your posts?
Because there is a guy who said "There is always something to learn in PvP."
And I am saying there is always something to learn in all 9 matchups, not just PvP.
I don't know why mirror matchups are more tricky and difficult, but many people would agree things like TvT, ZvZ, PvP are all tricky.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 18 2012 18:16 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 10:22 NrGmonk wrote:On April 18 2012 10:13 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:On April 18 2012 08:59 NrGmonk wrote:On April 18 2012 00:12 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Stop making PvP like it is extremely difficult. Every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult. On April 17 2012 19:21 Laserist wrote:
You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. There is always something to learn in PvP.
It is great to have dedicated protoss players always create awesome and enlightening guides. I am proud of my protoss brethren. There is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP There is always something to learn in all 9 match ups, not just PvP. lol what's the point of this post? The point is to tell people to stop making PvP look like it is extremely difficult. Because every mirror match is considerably more tricky and more difficult, and that there is always something to learn in TvT TvZ TvP ZvT ZvZ ZvP PvT PvZ PvP Not just PvP. Who's doing that? Why are mirror matchups more tricky and difficult? Why are you listing every matchup in your posts? Because there is a guy who said "There is always something to learn in PvP." And I am saying there is always something to learn in all 9 matchups, not just PvP. I don't know why mirror matchups are more tricky and difficult, but many people would agree things like TvT, ZvZ, PvP are all tricky.
He never said or implied that there's less to learn from any other MUs.
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On NSHS_Sage's stream yesterday, he lost not one but two PvP's that went to 4bases (Major attack) before a big attack.
The first attack involved his colossi killing everything on the ground, but his opponents had too many void rays and he lost everything while killing an expo. Both players had a mothership, but Sage had the good feedback (confirming what you said about moships).
Rematch involved same thing: Both players had colossi on 2base, then phoenix and a third base, then High Templar, Colossi, and chargelots all over. Again his opponent went void rays but lost with diverse expo pressure. Both games showed a diverse departure for run-of-the-mill PvPs. With archon buffers and colossi, both massive units took tremendous damage from void rays and Sage lost major engagements. The opponent was some smurf with all pipes (||||||||||||||), but top-8 KR masters. Food for thought.
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One of the most impressive threads I've seen so far, just wish same existed in the other two matchups!
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I've been seeking a good PvP break down. This is it. Thank you
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Whoa great thread, how did I miss it! Thanks for linking it in the finals preview.
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That guide is fantastic ! We need that for all the matches. That could educate everyone and actually makes them better at the game !
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Just read this guide in the wake of the upcoming GSL finals, and thanks, this has been really interesting.
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My babies, here have them.
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Thanks for that well written insight. I play Protoss for some seasons now and still there was plenty of new information for me as a player (which is just the more impressive when you think about this being a guide for observers)
I guess once I found a play style that is fun to me, I didn't explore the other paths a PvP all to well.
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This guide is spectacular.
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EPT
