If it's like a tournament with a bo3, you definetly should all in once to put pressure on your opponent and not allow him to just go greedy plays every game. I have at least 1 solid and good allin in each match up. I think macro player is better for ladder unless you want to practice some allin from time to time. After all allins are easier to learn than macro plays.

this dick got banned from TL for making a second account to ask questions to himself in his coaching thread to make it look like people are actually interested in his advices

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696&currentpage=1076#21526

Wow, people really do that? And I thought that replying to 1 person's question in my quite old guide was a bit too attention attractive.

Steelo_Rivers

United States1968 Posts

April 12 2012 15:58 GMT

#42

Koreans usually dont cheese. They use aggressive builds that get them advantages to lead them into macro games while still being aggressive. if you lose in the early game, thats you fault.

drbrown

Sweden442 Posts

April 12 2012 16:09 GMT

#43

On April 13 2012 00:58 AeroEffect wrote:
Koreans usually dont cheese. They use aggressive builds that get them advantages to lead them into macro games while still being aggressive. if you lose in the early game, thats you fault.

Depends on how you define cheese, a couple of things are true

Koreans are at least on ladder prone to a lot more cheese than europeans/americans. Koreans focus more on carefully thought out builds rather than relying on the pure strength of their mechanics. Koreans mix in more all-in builds than others do, they doesn't classify as cheese but they're intented to end the game.

hifriend

China7935 Posts

April 12 2012 16:13 GMT

#44

I've always been saying that foreigners emphasize macro games way too much, and especially foreign pro's vs korean pro's. It makes them way too predictable. Huk is one of the few that does it right, probably as a result of grinding the korean ladder for so long.

avilo

United States4100 Posts

April 12 2012 16:20 GMT

#45

Wait a minute...American macro? Every Zerg on the NA server pretty much all-ins almost every game. They rarely build drones on NA server, they usually drone after some random roach/ling or bane/ling all-in. If you go on EU, that's where they make drones even if you just built 15 hellions and ran by their spine crawlers they're still making drones.

How2getMaster

Germany124 Posts

April 12 2012 23:34 GMT

#46

I think if you Allin a player you can see his real skill and game-sense. If I 6 Pool a guy and he holds it and then looses the game anyways he is just a bad player. Responding to cheese often can´t be trained and because of that it shows the real skill of the player getting allined!

Greetings.

ishyishy

United States826 Posts

April 12 2012 23:38 GMT

#47

I refuse to play a macro game, but only because that is not what I enjoy. Some people are misinformed (idiots) and think that you HAVE to drag games out to improve, and think that if you even think about going for the win at any point before the 20 min mark, you are an all in noob lol.

aintthatfunny

193 Posts

April 12 2012 23:54 GMT

#48

In my opinion, if you're new to the game, it is better to play allin/aggressive a lot.
You learn the value of having smooth builds, get good practice microing and learn a lot about decision making. New players will do so many things wrong if they go for 30min+ macro games, it's a very time inefficient way to improve, and you won't be able to take much from it.

Zariel

Australia1312 Posts

April 13 2012 00:08 GMT

#49

Being an aggressive player is the only way to become a overall better player. By a better player, I mean having a better gamesense and knowledge of the game as a whole.

By not being aggressive these are the following points you miss learning on:
- You cannot gauge how well you and your opponent can multitask
- You will also not improve on being good at macro while you attack/defend
- You will not know what your opponent could possibly (as in, what's the most he can produce) have at each stage of the game
- Dictating the pace of the game
- Micro
- Limits of individual or small groups of units. The most beautiful attacks/defenses are the ones that succeed/hold with the skin of their teeth. This is what makes spectators on the edge of their seats, not the games where one army completely rolls over another.

This is why I teach my friends to attack anywhere between the 5-9 minute mark, because if they are able to constantly reinforce their attack and micro their troops whilst expanding or building SCVs, then they will ultimately learn to become better players. Even up to a point where they only have 1 zealot, 1 stalker.

mikedebo

Canada4341 Posts

April 13 2012 00:10 GMT

#50

MACRONI AND CHEESE

User was warned for this post

SupLilSon

Malaysia4123 Posts

April 13 2012 00:19 GMT

#51

This. I play on KR server and it's not like they are even all-inning. They'll hit with really well executed aggression, and even if you hold they are probably expanding behind it. I've lost a bunch of games where I had my opponent in a position any NA player would GG out of and they just macro hard as shit and come back. KR server teaches you to scout more intelligently because everyone doesn't just copy the same pro builds they see on stream and then execute them poorly.

Antimatterz

United States1010 Posts

April 13 2012 00:25 GMT

#52

I hate only certain types of cheese. Things that are acceptable on ladder but not in tournaments are what are the most infuriating. There is a reason why 3 pylon wall offs and bunker wall ins are blocked from tournament play: they are nearly impossible to beat no matter how good you are. I get frustrated when I lose to things like 4 gates or 2 port cloak banshee, but it is more focused towards losing to something that has been figured out already and I just read wrong.

KarneEspada

United States72 Posts

April 13 2012 00:59 GMT

#53

With my experience on both the NA and KR ladder as well as just being an esports fan..what you are describing is not "NA macro vs. KR cheese," it's more along the lines of "NA Uncreativity, Passivity, and Mechanic-Relying vs. Korean Creativity, Mechanics, and Aggression." If you play on KR ladder and/or watch Koreans play in tournaments, you will realize that what makes the stereotypical korean player a "korean" is that they have incredibly aggressive and creative builds in addition to their incredible mechanics and macro whilst players from NA are just the latter. So, in conclusion, macro is always first. Always. Koreans are so good because they have these creative and aggressive builds which highlight their amazing macro abilities.

TranceKuja

United States154 Posts

April 13 2012 01:27 GMT

#54

Even "cheese builds" benefit from good macro.

ipwntbarney

United States141 Posts

April 13 2012 01:56 GMT

#55

I really have to disagree with the title. The Korean play style isn't "cheese", it's just aggressive. The term "cheese" is usually reserved for blind all-ins that only work if completely unscouted. Doing lots of drops, timing attacks, and other stuff to throw off your opponents rhythm is a lot different than building 2 gateways outside of their base.

Otherwise, I more or less agree with what you're saying. I think NA/EU players need to try and incorporate more attacking and harassment instead of just turtling to 200/200 before really doing anything.

Fishgle

United States2174 Posts

April 13 2012 02:35 GMT

#56

On April 13 2012 09:10 mikedebo wrote:
MACRONI AND CHEESE

This phrase needs to be added to the Starcraft Dictionary.

Fealthas

607 Posts

April 13 2012 02:57 GMT

#57

I am a mid diamond player who is finding macro doesn't work for me. I started doing some aggressive plays(oh god, I hate long tvts. End em early if I can) and it has been working very well for me. Most people just don't know how to hold early pressure. Non-Koreans need to face reality and learn to play something else then no-rush 10min. I suggest you all find some aggressive builds and see how they work for you. Winning under 6 min is not less honorable or cheesy then winning at 20min.

dUTtrOACh

Canada2339 Posts

April 13 2012 03:06 GMT

#58

Korean cheese is backed up by terrific macro. It's a matter of gosu practice regimen mechanics vs chobo foreigner practice regimen mechanics.

DT-Toss

Korea (South)59 Posts

April 13 2012 03:26 GMT

#59

You know what? Korean can micro and marco at the same time while foreigners can't do that both.

The reason why Korean are always aggressive is because they can micro very well without losing any units.