EPTNow make them astronauts in Space and you have a good idea of the North American Starcraft scene.
Aggression is the great American Heresy.
[D] Korean Cheese vs American Macro - Page 2
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
Now make them astronauts in Space and you have a good idea of the North American Starcraft scene. Aggression is the great American Heresy. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
In contrast to korean players which often , as soon as they see a certain weakness, just know that they can go for the kill, and then do it. I wouldn't actually call it cheese , because for me cheese is mostly based on luck and done blindly. But thats not what korean players do , they just exploit the fact that they know very well when they're ahead and when they need to attack and how hard, to guarantee a kill right now. But i think thats not a good way to learn the game, because as a new player, at least for the most time you are not even aware of how far ahead or behind you are and what timings you can exploit. So just trying to snowball your advantage up seems to be the most reasonable way to learn for unexperienced players. But for top level play you really need to punish your opponents if you can, and i agree that foreigners often seem like even if they know they could kill their opponent right now or punish a mistake, they simply don't do it and let him get back into the game. | ||
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EnderSword
Canada669 Posts
That's their advice for anyone NOT top level. Once you're Diamond/Masters+ your skills have to be much more diverse | ||
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GornWood
Germany121 Posts
If they would only focus on macro they would give weaker players a chance to win because they also only have to focus on ONE thing. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On April 12 2012 22:07 Cheerio wrote: when everyone has good macro you cant win with just that, so you must outplay strategically your opponent. This is what timing attacks and thought out cheese play do. Macro is overrated. When everyone has good macro, you win by having excellent macro. When everyone has excellent macro, you need to outplay your opopnent strategically. Fortunately, that only matters at master level, which is about the top 2% of all players, so no, macro is far from overrated. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On April 12 2012 17:33 AegiS_ wrote: the mere fact you call an aggresive build "cheese" is the answer to your question. "american zergs" are all wana-be idras in the fact that if anyone does anything aggressive / non-standard they are a gimmicky scrub. that's just the mentality on NA. I play on the korean server a lot and they have a completely different mindset on the game. Micro-ing well and being aggressive is seen as "skilled", not "gimmicky" as a generic NA zerg would call it. If I execute a well micro-d stargate all in in PvT on the NA server I get BM'd 90% of the time, but on KR they will just GG. Macro in starcraft 2 is easy. Saying you're a good macro player is not really saying much. But if you can mix in crazy aggressive builds AND have amazing korean-level micro AND macro well behind it (Again, not hard) THAT will make you a great player, and it is a large factor as to why korean players are better than americans. I tend to agree with this post. Micro is just as critical as macro. Aggressive builds require quite a bit of skill to be pulled off near perfectly... and they basically can't be 100% perfect because you can never micro more than 1 or 2 units perfectly over the course of 15 seconds in an RTS like SC2. The western mentality that aggression is always bad is just plain wrong. It's part of the puzzle that makes SC2 a great game. Macro is a part of it. Mind games is a part of it. Scouting is a part of it. Etc. etc. Saying aggression at the wrong time that costs you games is bad may be correct... but as the Koreans prove, you need to be aggressive and lose some to learn how to get better at being aggressive so it's more rewarding than not. On the ladder a lot of players aren't quite good enough to micro and macro, so they lose doing it, so they fall into that mentality that is just plain wrong... so they hate the game and BM when they lose to aggression. It's really a travesty and I believe people are missing out on an important part of the game. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
Cheese, along with the skill it takes to transition in and out of it, is what makes a player like MC so good: He's willing to go for a macro slugfest as long as he isn't going into it at a disadvantage. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On April 12 2012 21:44 Nyxisto wrote: I think you can actually sum it up like Artosis states it: " if you are ahead , get more ahead". That seems to be the general EU and American mindset. In contrast to korean players which often , as soon as they see a certain weakness, just know that they can go for the kill, and then do it. I wouldn't actually call it cheese , because for me cheese is mostly based on luck and done blindly. But thats not what korean players do , they just exploit the fact that they know very well when they're ahead and when they need to attack and how hard, to guarantee a kill right now. But i think thats not a good way to learn the game, because as a new player, at least for the most time you are not even aware of how far ahead or behind you are and what timings you can exploit. So just trying to snowball your advantage up seems to be the most reasonable way to learn for unexperienced players. But for top level play you really need to punish your opponents if you can, and i agree that foreigners often seem like even if they know they could kill their opponent right now or punish a mistake, they simply don't do it and let him get back into the game. One problem with the western mentality is that you only learn to beat the other guy if your army and income is double his. Well yeah duh, it's easy to win at that point. The aggressive mentality is that you will be barely ahead and win if you engage now... but you know your micro will be (has to be) spot on and you can assume it will mess up the other guy's macro or flow or whatnot and you push in and kill. You never know what is safe and what isn't until you've played a billion games and tried each scenario out a few times (watching pros helps). | ||
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DoctorFunk
160 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On April 12 2012 17:04 Nomad123 wrote: i don't mind your opinion, but please don't use Tang as a source. he pays people $20 to leave games just so his ladder ranking would look ok. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/ also, quoting from a comment in that reddit page, it seems Tang got caught: In the ABL thread, it turned out the mod got it wrong and apologised for it. Not saying anything else about Tang because I know literally nothing about him. | ||
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Opeasy
107 Posts
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ke_ivan
Singapore374 Posts
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Plague1503
Croatia466 Posts
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
On April 12 2012 22:41 Opeasy wrote: In my opinion early pressure =/= cheese. It's just a strategy that should deal some damage or put you behind. Even the "cheesiest" build 7 pool, is not really a cheese, it is a way to get the game where you want it to be. That is why the best players goes for these fast attacks, to maintain control over the game. The "both macro up and cross their fingers hoping they chose the better build" is really not that smart. With something like a 7 pool, there are hard counters to it that set you really far behind. To choose an extreme example, let's say you 10 pool against a toss who went forge first. If you only make 6 lings and the toss responds correctly (pull workers for a sec if necessary to not allow a run by) you have lost right there. It's a straight up build order loss. If you go 6 rax marines against a terran who gets a bunker you lose. There are many all in builds where the entire point is to cross your fingers and hope. I don't know what you mean by macroing and hoping you chose the better build. The reason to play a macro game is to play a safe build that can work against anything ><. You have no understanding at all. | ||
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scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On April 12 2012 23:02 boxman22 wrote: With something like a 7 pool, there are hard counters to it that set you really far behind. To choose an extreme example, let's say you 10 pool against a toss who went forge first. If you only make 6 lings and the toss responds correctly (pull workers for a sec if necessary to not allow a run by) you have lost right there. It's a straight up build order loss. If you go 6 rax marines against a terran who gets a bunker you lose. There are many all in builds where the entire point is to cross your fingers and hope. I don't know what you mean by macroing and hoping you chose the better build. The reason to play a macro game is to play a safe build that can work against anything ><. You have no understanding at all. There are economical 7pool variants that put you slightly behind but can do enough damage to put you around equal footing (for example killing the forge and denying expansion). As a simple example, Sheth demonstrated such a build order when he was coaching TotalBiscuit, though of course i have seen it used before. Of course many people do it wrong and only build lings and don't back it up with drones and a queen, but 7pool doesn't have to be all-in. Yes, there are many builds that _are_ all-in but early pool in ZvZ and ZvP is not unless you screw it up. You just need to know how to transition, a 7pool build order doesn't stop at "build 1 drone, build pool, build lings, attack". Playing aggressive is a way to ensure the opponent _does_ play safe and doesn't cut corners while it actually allows you to play a lot greedier because as long as you micro your units correctly and don't lose them, the opponent can neither play greedy - he would die to the aggression - nor can he attack you because he has an army in his face that is ready to just kill his base as soon as he tries to cross the map. It gives you a lot of safety that you can abuse. | ||
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TheRealzz
150 Posts
I love the game regardless of the stress so who cares, but since playing and reading alot when learning the mind set was "macro macro macro". I decided maybe around Plat that I was getting bored with the how things play out, and would try some cheese now an then. Personally I found the game more fun O_O mind = blown. And it was this little fact if the aggression was held off --> shiz he held it off he's in the lead but I wonder if I can keep up or gain better eco advantage ??? <---- THIS (Obviously im not playing this style every game; but since its ladder I DO xD - FUN times) THIS got me hooked on an aggressive style cause its like lol he's going to WIN. Can I use any sly / skill to maximise a come back ( CHALLENGE ACCEPTED ). An so I drone like mad, and I feel its made my macro slightly better. I can't for sure say it has, but I like the discussion thought I'd chime in. Hope my engerind is good <- sorry if not. | ||
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elwoodng
Singapore438 Posts
Like someone said earlier, the advice to macro better is for non-pros. Anything else and it's like trying to learn poker by watching WSOP, I won't say it's the correct way. When someone like Nestea or Naniwa cheeses or do something all-in, it's not purely a coinclip, it's probably a calculated risk based off studying their opponent's scouting pattern, playstyle preferences on maps etc etc. stuff like that, and mindgaming. Basically, they're playing the player, not the game. And the koreans really aren't afraid to go for the throat if they sense weakness, which I think is the biggest difference in playstyle compared to foreigners. | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
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