EPTThere's no way... unless you let your reinforcements trickle in one by one... and your lings must not have speed... hmm.
Sounds like you got trolled pretty badly, haha.
[D] Underused Tactic in Lower Leagues - Page 8
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
There's no way... unless you let your reinforcements trickle in one by one... and your lings must not have speed... hmm. Sounds like you got trolled pretty badly, haha. | ||
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DrLOAC
United States53 Posts
On April 07 2012 20:03 Belial88 wrote: I would say 100% of people in Bronze to Gold just genuinely do not understand how to play the game. Not, like they don't know how to play the game like 99% of midmasters do not understand map control and when to drone up and make units - but as in, you don't know the hotkeys yet. You don't realize the nuances of holding shift, control, alt, or a combination of those buttons, in conjunction with hotkeys, right click, left click, et cetera. You don't fully understand what units, counter what units - you may know "a banshee beats a roach", although most of bronze to gold don't, but you definitely don't understand things like "roaches counter stalkers at X timing" or "roaches counter thors, despite on paper it being opposite". When someone says 'lower level player', I don't consider Bronze to Gold 'lower level'. That would be like saying my grandfather is a 'lower level MW2 player' - no, he just doesn't know how to play the game yet. It's not an insult, this is an extremely complex game, and I'm sure if a blue like Cecil saw me play, he'd laugh and say I didn't know what the fuck I was doing at all (and he'd be right). You can watch the many things, like Gheed's Worker Rushing in Bronze. Oh, you can hold a worker rush? Great - but you being in the same league as people like this, means you play just at the same level, and make just as ridiculous of mistakes. You are completely wrong that lower level people have 'decent macro'. You are so wrong. You making that comment, just proves that you have no clue what decent macro is. Please, please provide a replay showing your 'decent macro' in a ladder game. I'll happily eat my words. I've actually done it many times on this forum (eat my words), every time I argued with a blue poster. What I think is going on, is you have never, ever, ever played with a GM level player (or perhaps diamond, really). You don't realize just how bad you really are. It took playing with a GM for me to realize how much of a fucking idiot I really was. I used to be just like you - 'oh yea, I macro really well, i never get supply blocked!'. Turns out, you can avoid supply blocks 100% and still have atrocious macro. But I guarantee that every bronze to diamond player gets supply blocked at least once before the 8 minute mark. I seriously do not believe a bronze-gold player can play against easy AI and max out in 12 minutes on roaches. The reason 1 and 2 base all-ins are strong in bronze-gold is because no one macros well. So 'timings' exist that are just completely nonsensical anywhere else. Like many people have said, "anything is viable in diamond- league". I could guarantee I can beat anyone in bronze-gold with just pure banelings, or roaches, or queens, or whatever. Just like a High masters could troll the shit out of me, and beat me with pure queen, pure marauder, pure queen, or whatever. There's just that large a difference in the macro. Bronze to Gold is not a 'low level player'. It's someone who doesn't know the hotkeys yet, who doesn't know all the nuances of the controls. I would say 'lower level' is more like platinum to low masters, who understands the command prompts, but may or may not know what the fuck they are doing. I mean really, just pay Cecil $20 to coach you for an hour, and by the end, you'll realize how much of an insolent brat you are for ever doubting a High Masters/GM level player. I used to be such an insolent brat, and my TL Warning & Ban History can attest to that. Now, I am ashamed I ever talked back to a blue poster, and high masters players, and I've learned I have no fucking clue what I'm doing. I mean literally. Cecil, and every other blue and high master, spend like 5+ hours every day on starcraft. For the last 10 years. How long have you been in starcraft? Oh, what, you are gold, and only been around for a year, and only play on the weekends? What, you didn't even get to D+ on ICCUP? What, you never even played ICCUP? You realize, that these guys were like B+ on ICCUP, which is like high masters, on BW, 10 years ago. Do you realize how crazy it is that you somehow figured something out to this game that they simply forgot? Don't you think it's odd that how every, single, high masters+ player says macro is the most important thing? Or are they just all assholes and wrong? I mean I get it, I did the same thing a lot too. Just find someone who's GM or High Masters, and have him play with you for a few games. You'll realize just how bad you are so quickly. I mean anyone who played on ICCUP, is at least Masters. That should tell you something. Don't be surprised that after a year of playing, you can't get past Gold. Where do you think idra was for the first year he played? There's a little truth to this post. I was worker rushed twice on ladder by the same guy, (went back and checked it wasn't Gheed), lost both times. I saw them in coming, I attacked moved, kept making SCVs, and lost, both times. The guy was GM enough to show me how to defend it in a custom game. Turns out I wasn't attack moving. I was targeting units one drone and after it was dead my SCVs stopped attacking giving him the upper hand. This was a subtle difference between army and workers army units. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
1. You take a gas before third. That isn't really good macro. Maybe we can say not knowing BO isn't necessary, but you should know you can't manage that gas and droning with fast third. Haven't you seen a pro game of fast third? You don't get gas until the third is almost done, at the earliest. 2. You keep sending drones to take bases wayyyy before they arrive. You should be sending the drone there at like 100-200 minerals, so it arrives at 300. This is because... 3. You keep having idle larva. Holy shit. From 4:32 to the end of the game, you have idle larva. Which causes the problem of... 4. You CONSTANTLY having over 100 minerals. At 5:17 you have 200 minerals! If you constantly made workers, you wouldn't have this problem. 5. You took a gas super super early, but never put drones into it. Poor macro. Manage your gas better. You need to time that better. 6. Holy shit just idle larva the whole time. At one point you had 7 idle larva for well over 20 seconds. 7. Over 400 minerals at 5:45 mark. 8. I cannot stress enough how bad it is you have idle larva, all the time. ALL the time. 9. By 6:00, when most pros are 45+ supply, you are at 34! This is a direct result of you banking so much money, and your idle larva all game long. 10. 30 drones at the 6:30 mark.... too low. 11. No 2nd gas by 7:00... 12. Queen at natural has 22 energy after inject. You know what Nestea said? He said "if your queen has over 50 energy at any time in the [early] game, it's impossible to win". You are getting pretty close to being in a position where it's impossible for you to win. How can you have that much extra energy by the 7:00 mark?!?! 13. Taking 4 gas all at once at 7:00. You have 38 drones. You can barely afford 2 gas right now, let alone 4. If you watch pros play, they stay on 2 gas at 6-7:00+, then 3 gas when lair is morphing. They don't get the 4th gas until about 90+ supply (unless they go pure drone, very rare.... dont think it's possible anymore with current zvp). You, however, take all 4 at 7:00. Horrible gas management. You just kill off the few drones you have. 14. You are at 48 supply when most people are at 55+... 15. You don't maynard any workers to arrive at your third when it pops. No queen started there, and it's not like you had a queen you were going to make from nat or main to walk to it. 16. 7:08 you hit 108 gas. You don't make any roaches, you don't make lair. You don't use gas again until... 17: 2 overlords at 50/54. Why? You only need 1 overlord. This is a really, really big mistake of lower level players. They say 'yea i never get supply blocked". Yea, that's because you make 10 overlords at 30 supply. That's worse than getting supply blocked. Considering you have SIX idle larva right now, i'd say that could have bee 4 drones that you could have gotten there. So not good. 18. 7:30 you start lair... at 47/70 supply. You've made way too many extra overlords, you barely have any drones at all, you take 4 gas yet your roach warren isn't even done. You realize you are going to have 12/38 drones on gas. So 12 on gas, 26 on minerals. That's about a 1:2 ratio to minerals to gas. Wtf? 19. Lair started about 15 seconds after you had 100 gas to do so. Making lair at ~7:30 is standard, but it's NOT standard to get it at onjly 38 drones, or 47 supply. This is not only a result of your poor macro with overlords and idle larva, but taking the gas too quickly. Take the gas slower. 20. Third has been up a minute. There is no queen, there, no queen even started, and you haven't maynarded any workers. You are probably losing about 20% income because your mineral saturation is HORRIBLE. 21. By the way, if this was a real game, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for you to win, because you are sooo far behind. Toss could either push and you'd die because you can't afford anything, and then you'd make posts saying "wtf toss is imbalanced they just mass stalkers and win", or "wtf toss gets colossi and I can't do anything about it, he just gets so much tech on 2 base and pushes and I can't do anything about it" or "wtf hydras are useless, I get hydras but when i arrive he has colossi to roflbbq them" or "wtf toss just takes a third and I can't punish it, toss is ridiculous". But in reality, your macro is just so bad that you kill yourself. It's like trying to play a macro game after 6 pooling, you are that far behind. 22. At 8:00 you are at 60 supply. I don't think this is fair, because 30 seconds before, you were at 49 supply, and 15 seconds before, you were at 56. If this was a real game, where you would have to make 4 lings, and can't make such greedy pool and hatch timings, you really wouldn't be here. But even in a game with no pressure, you can't get above 60 supply. 23. Your worker saturation on your bases at 8:15 is 22, 18, 8. This is soooo horrible. You are losing a huge amount of income due to this. 24. It's not even the 9:00 mark, you have over 600 minerals, and 500 gas. WOW 25. Supply blocked at 86/86. You screw up EVERY SINGLE SUPPLY BLOCK. At 50/54, you make 2 extra overlords, so that puts you at 70. Then before 70 comes around, you make 2 overlords way too early. Then, you get blocked at 86/86. You can't manage to get past 40 supply without either getting supply blocked every single time, or making too many overlords more than your production justifies. Just avoid getting suply blocked, and if it happens, just make a single overlord, and move on, and don't do it again. Not hard. Yet you, fuck, it, up. Hard. 26. 13 idle larva at 7:38 by the way. Wow. That may have something to do with your 400+ bank at the moment too. 27. By 9:00, the queens have 25 energy, and 32, and 29 respectively just after injecting. How can you have so much energy banked already? This is horrible! 28. You get suply blocked at 110/110. You proceed to make FOUR overlords at once. That's ridiculous. You can support 2 right now, not 4. That's lost drones, idle larva, lost supply... late tech, et cetera. Then, when they pop. you are at 116/144, and you make 2 more. Why would you do that? 29. Over 700 minerals before 10 minutes. 30. There hasn't been a single moment past 4:32 where you didn't have idle larva. Huuuuuge problem man. 31. You are at like 140/170, you make 4 overlords at once. Mind you, high masters+ will get 75+ supply (not drones, supply!) at 8:00 mark. In a game with zero pressure, you can't even hit 61. So how are you going to tell me you can macro like a pro 'when there is no pressure'... when you clearly can't? Yes, you maxed out at 12:00. But it's pretty obvious you can't macro at all. You have just horrible, horrible macro. You could never play a game against a high masters+, even if they told you they weren't going to do anything, and that it was NR20, and a-move only at 20 minute (or 10, or whatever, you get the idea). You just have atrocious macro. Now, I don't know if you, as a lower level player, are just completely oblivious to your own problems (like we all are, actualy, I'm completely guilty of it too, last week I posted a rep and everyone tore me a new one about 'how come you never inject before 9 minute mark?'), or what. But it's pretty obvious that NO, you CANT macro well at all, even against the AI. Most lower league players I know actually have decent makro IF (and thats the big IF) left alone to "Probes & Pylons & Army" 12 minutes roach max out? Give a Gold player 10 - 20 tries to figure out Gas and Roachwarren timings and sooner or later he WILL hit the max out around 12 minutes. It's not about the max out or not. What your replay has clearly proven, is give a gold player 10-20 tries to macro well in the first 10 minutes in a build order tester, and they can't do it. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Wait, Belial, I'm thinking really hard right now as to how you lost 30 lings and 8 roaches to 10 units. There's no way... unless you let your reinforcements trickle in one by one... and your lings must not have speed... hmm. Sounds like you got trolled pretty badly, haha. yea no speed, fast third. It was entombed valley, with those dumb fucking rocks so your units have to take forever to get around. I only held it off because I created roaches from the third, but no queen was to inject there (it died) so it was hard. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On April 07 2012 23:01 Belial88 wrote: 3. You keep having idle larva. Holy shit. From 4:32 to the end of the game, you have idle larva. Which causes the problem of... 6. Holy shit just idle larva the whole time. At one point you had 7 idle larva for well over 20 seconds. 8. I cannot stress enough how bad it is you have idle larva, all the time. ALL the time. I'd just like to point out that idle larvae is on the list of unforgiveable zerg macro offenses. having just 4 idle larvae is the equivalent of whiffing a full inject. This is comparable to straight-up cutting workers and units as Terran or Protoss. | ||
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aggu
38 Posts
I think it would be easy to program a perfect 'macro AI' which produces flawlessly and occasionally a-move the troops into the enemy's base. Which league would it reach? To me, that answers the question of how far you can get by mechanical macro (factoring out all other game knowledge and human intelligence). Up to that point, SC2 would be in essence a solved and trivial game of optimization. This is not to deny the importance of macro or to question what's said in OP, it's just what I think the notion of 'pure macro' means and how we could test how important it is. But I don't know the answer. Maybe it would reach gold-plat? or higher? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Kuskinator
United Kingdom43 Posts
....and army positioning... ![[image loading]](http://s10.postimage.org/k2w8k17g7/pylons_and_probes.jpg) | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
All the things you say are true and i appreciate that you took your time. Now tell me the following: That was me with 80 APM. Alone to to box my workers and count them cost me a few seconds doing nothing but double checking, Do you think that all of the points you mentioned above are possible with my hand speed, so ists just an issue of "pylons & probes" or should i fix my "awareness", handspeed and settings first in order to "properly" execute probes and pylons? So give this list to a bronze player (as in lower league, the OP wrote about gold level players) with 40 APM and tell him to do all the stuff. Do you really think he will be able to do it? The main problem here is that there is a bunch of ppl which dont get tired to say "the game is easy, just macro" when the game is NOT easy. One GML Player even stated here that he can macro perfectly even with a trackball and 20 APM. The discussion here never was "is it important to build probes and pylons?" the discussion was Can a lower league player really take on this form of play and win more games due to true improvement? and as you said, I would not be able to take on this form of play and improve with "just" probes and pylons. There are other things lacking to leading to a totally screwed up probes & pylons. | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
I thought you meant pylon,forge,gate,nexus, pylon,cannon  | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
When this point is reached, it is completely wrong to tell a player they should ignore the other aspects of this multi-faceted game. If a person has bronze-level builds, composition, or unit control, they should not wait until they have masters-level macro to address that issue. The OP's point is really not that useful, but he's certainly not the first person to jump on that soapbox. A more interesting issue is: When should players diversify their focus on practice and improvement if they want to improve as quickly and efficiently as possible? That point is much sooner than "macro 'til masters!" For example, in season 5, high-gold zergs primarily used muta-ling-bling. Typically, if a terran had poor unit control and positioning they'd get wrecked. Terran sees huge gains in the efficiency of their units if they stay off creep, target fire banelings with tanks, stim scout ahead of their moving tanks, and run/spread their marines from banes. It is easier and quicker to achieve competency in some of these control fundamentals than it is to go from platinum-level macro to diamond-level macro. If a gold player lacks these control basics but has platinum macro, they should clean up their control and positioning before they resume their quest for perfect macro. Builds can also make a big difference in high-gold TvZ. A high-gold terran with better macro mechanics will typically get out-macroed by his zerg opponent if he plays passively. Being unprepared for the muta timing will also cost terrans the game. Tweaking a build to include some early pressure on the zerg can make a huge difference. Having muta defense ready at the right time can make a huge difference. These fixes are much easier than achieving perfect macro. In short... TLDR: Yes, masters-level macro is great, but other game-play improvements are much easier to achieve. Don't wait until masters to take a more hollistic approach to improvement. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On April 07 2012 23:23 Charon1979 wrote: So.. and don't you think that was MUCH more helpful than "ohm... macro better"? All the things you say are true and i appreciate that you took your time. Now tell me the following: That was me with 80 APM. Alone to to box my workers and count them cost me a few seconds doing nothing but double checking, Do you think that all of the points you mentioned above are possible with my hand speed, so ists just an issue of "pylons & probes" or should i fix my "awareness", handspeed and settings first in order to "properly" execute probes and pylons? So give this list to a bronze player (as in lower league, the OP wrote about gold level players) with 40 APM and tell him to do all the stuff. Do you really think he will be able to do it? The main problem here is that there is a bunch of ppl which dont get tired to say "the game is easy, just macro" when the game is NOT easy. One GML Player even stated here that he can macro perfectly even with a trackball and 20 APM. The discussion here never was "is it important to build probes and pylons?" the discussion was and as you said, I would not be able to take on this form of play and improve with "just" probes and pylons. There are other things lacking to leading to a totally screwed up probes & pylons. Like I said, even though most people don't refer to basic macro as 'multitasking', it requires a lot of multitasking to pull off. This is a hard as fuck game. Just the basics of macro take a year or two to get down. To play this game competently, takes over a year. It's like the first year of playing this game, you are in a tutorial. No one is denying that starcraft is hard a fuck. Just some people don't realize how fucking hard, it is. I also think fast third is a lot more taxing than most builds, and zerg is also a bit harder in terms of pulling off the basic macro. If you weren't going fast third, and were playing P or T instead of Z, yea, a lower level player could pull it off pretty simply with a few games. I think the heart of the OP's post, is learning how to analyze your play better, going over your replays, and focusing on your macro more than things like "muta or infestor" or "should my hotkey for army be on X or Y?" Then people are arguing, saying how no, decision making and scouting and all this stuff is so much more important, and that they macro just fine. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
I think the heart of the OP's post, is learning how to analyze your play better, going over your replays, and focusing on your macro more than things like "muta or infestor" or "should my hotkey for army be on X or Y?" Then people are arguing, saying how no, decision making and scouting and all this stuff is so much more important, and that they macro just fine. While this is true, I have the feeling its more a matter of the mindset. Ladder places you (except for deepest down bronze and high GM) against ppl of your own skill. This forced 50:50 win/loss rate leads to some games where you are way ahead (as in better upgrades, more army supply, more army value, more workers, way more income) and suddenly you lose 8 Infestors to missmicro and your 3/5 Ultra/Ling army gets torn by his 2/2 MMM. While it is clear that macro ALWAYS is an issue, the player will not percieve it as an issue. Why should he? He can clearly see that he was way ahead. He isnt thinking "oh I could have ended the game 5 minutes earlier if my macro where proper", he is thinking "my macro was better, everybody tells me that macro is winning the game and my opponent was on 2 bases 44 SCV, his main mined out and still rolled over my 4 bases and 80 Drones!" I think thats why ppl tend to "defend" their macro. They dont say "My macro is top!" (altough thats what they sometimes type) they say "my macro was BETTER THAN HIS and I still lost because of <enter reason here>. When your macro gets better, guess what... the ladder places you against other players with improved macro. And the same game starts anew. | ||
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KookyMonster
United States311 Posts
Also, for those saying it's more about multi-tasking: most lower-level players struggle with getting supply blocked and forgetting to bring up an economy. Remember, their opponent is just as (or remotely close to) skillful as they are. Therefore, the battles are probably not going to come down to a micro battle or "multi-tasking", as neither player can do those things well. "Probes and Pylons" is merely the idea of maintaining good macro habits. If you have good habits, then the "multi-tasking" will become easier. Basic Macro (such as correct saturation of minerals and not getting supply blocked) will change from another task to as easy as breathing; they just do it out of habit. | ||
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LazinCajun
United States294 Posts
On April 07 2012 23:23 Charon1979 wrote: (Snip) So give this list to a bronze player (as in lower league, the OP wrote about gold level players) with 40 APM and tell him to do all the stuff. Do you really think he will be able to do it? (snip) Of COURSE not. That's the whole point! If you can't do everything perfectly, then focus on improving on the important stuff. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
-learnt how to stop early reapers getting multiple SCV kills -learnt how to fend off early cloaked banshees without losing a dozen scvs -switched to marine tank viking from mass marine -learnt how to control a siege vs siege line effectively I was already winning most tvz and tvp through better macro, because you just don't need much else. | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
To anyone arguing with Cecil on this thread: stop being such an idiot. Seriously, ask ANY high level player and they will tell you that having more shit is the key to winning. Day[9], Tastosis, DJ WHEAT, Husky, Force, and myriad strategy makers, teachers, commentators, and pros have said as much (including our beloved Cecil). Don't fuck with the facts, people. Go read the forum rules, in which you are warned against arguing with a blue. EDIT: To all you bronzies arguing that you don't have the multitasking to macro better, you should try watching your replays. You will see just how much time you waste staring at your army, spamming one button for 30 seconds, looking around at the pretty lights, etc. This isn't about multitasking. It's about reallocation of your APM. You don't need to have 300 APM to build probes...and pylons.... | ||
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HiTeK532
Canada171 Posts
There is also the importance of being able to understand what your opponent is doing so that you can understand how to position and adapt your build to protect your probes and pylons. I always see people posting about how you can macro your way to masters or w/e you can also become a professional NBA player if you have perfect shooting percentage it's just way easier and more efficient to improve on other skills sometimes. | ||
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netherh
United Kingdom333 Posts
On April 07 2012 22:25 Belial88 wrote: No, I'm not contradicting myself. I made myself clear when I said "I consider lower level as plat-low masters". So, 'lower level players' need to follow the OP's advice of probes and pylons. People in Bronze-Gold, who are essentially just people learning how to mechanically interact with this game still, or basically casuals, need to just log games and learn how to interact with the UI. Fair enough. A bit of reading comprehension fail on my part. i don't think most people consider constant worker production, making sure to follow a BO and plant buildings on time, avoiding supply blocks, and not making supply too early to too many at once, ie probes & pylons, is multitasking. But in reality, yes, it is. You do need about 70+ APM to be effective for basic macro. It's an extremely multitasking-stressful game, even at the most basic level. But it's not 'you need multitasking' when you are just talking about probes&pylons. People would consider multitasking things like setting up flanks, dealing with harass, micro. What you are talking about is not 'multitasking'. It's basic macro, which, confusingly, yes, requires some multitask ability. You are learning to play the basics of the game. Ok. I guess this was new to me (at least it became clearer to me in my head that macro involves multi-tasking). I suppose I wish people would emphasise the multi-tasking more when they talk about the basics. My issue with things like "probes and pylons" is not that it's incorrect. People obviously do forget supply depots and so on. But telling them that they have done so, and that they should fix it is not necessarily helping. They already know they have to. In order to help the player improve, you have to ask why they forgot. It's not that they're being rebellious and just decided they weren't going to. Forgetting isn't voluntary. It happens because they're doing something else - microing, or thinking (whether about the game or about what socks they'll wear tomorrow). Ask why they missed it. I'm willing to bet that it's not because they were being idle (I know that I wasn't really conscious of any idle time in my brain with my 2 rax build). They were almost certainly doing something else (i.e. it's a multi-tasking issue). What were they thinking about or doing? Can they cut out the thought? or learn to move away from microing and come back? Can they speed up the process mechanically or use better hotkeys? Or just become more familiar with the build order? Asking all of these questions will lead to an answer that helps correct the issue. Saying "build probes and pylons" like someone hasn't heard this before a million times is almost insulting. Yes, the issue is that they don't build them, but until you ask why they're not building them, you're not actually helping. | ||
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Southwards
United States49 Posts
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