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On April 07 2012 08:51 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 08:28 oZe wrote:
Getting kinda sick of the macro better people. Do you know how many times a game I press V and hear not enough energy? I almost never have money to spare. Rarely get supply blocked. I am still pretty far from masters.
I can hardly remember a score screen where I had less workers and less resources harvested than opponents. However it's very common for me to have alot fewer units killed even though I made alot more.
I _ALWAYS_ lose because of micro, multitasking, build order & scouting issues. However few people talk about that because it's alot easier to use the goto mantra "macro better" and sound smart without having to put any thought into it.
SC2 is a complex game and being great is maybe 50% macro at most. If macro was as important as alot of people on TL say. GSL players wouldn't scout so early, wouldn't sacrafice mules, overlords & workers just to maybe get a glance of what opponents are doing. Proxy stuff, bank money, micro the shit out of one banshee and allin so much. They would like you know macro better ^^ At the highest level, everyone can macro close to equally, so that doesn't matter as much. This isn't the case at not top masters and below. You may lose a lot because of other issues, but I still bet you overestimate your macro.
This is so, so true. I've been plateaued close to masters for a while (mostly mid-high diamond with fluctuations up and down). I play a macro-focused game. Despite my macro playstyle and decently high level (compared to the total population), I recently realized that my macro is still hugely flawed. I have occasional (but too many and fairly consistent) midgame supply blocks and don't spend larvae fast enough, especially when other things are going on.
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On April 07 2012 14:16 DrLOAC wrote:
I agree with the folks who are sayings it's more than "probes and pylons", (or SCVs and Depots in my case)
As a forever Bronze, I've learned the following about my play in order of importance:
It's SCVs and Depots
And Barracks, Factories, and Starports
And scouting
And ups
And unit compostion
And micro
I've lost plenty of games where I had more workers,
Lost games where I had more workers, and more production
Lost games where I had more workers, more production, more army and failed to scout tech changes.
Where I had all of the above and failed to engage correctly, (MMM V vs P deathball anyone?)
While I could have won many of these games if I had even better macro it's stilldisheartening to lose when your macro was better than your opponent.
I'm continuing to work on all aspects of my play and its working, slowly.
I think you're taking the phrase "probes and pylons" just a little too literally. Those are indeed the most important parts of macro, but as Cecil says in the OP spending your money correctly on production facilities and units is critical too. Note that I did not say making decisions about which units to build, merely getting a high income and spending it on things that aren't ridiculously wrong will get you farther than you think.
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On April 07 2012 15:04 LazinCajun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 14:16 DrLOAC wrote:
I agree with the folks who are sayings it's more than "probes and pylons", (or SCVs and Depots in my case)
As a forever Bronze, I've learned the following about my play in order of importance:
It's SCVs and Depots
And Barracks, Factories, and Starports
And scouting
And ups
And unit compostion
And micro
I've lost plenty of games where I had more workers,
Lost games where I had more workers, and more production
Lost games where I had more workers, more production, more army and failed to scout tech changes.
Where I had all of the above and failed to engage correctly, (MMM V vs P deathball anyone?)
While I could have won many of these games if I had even better macro it's stilldisheartening to lose when your macro was better than your opponent.
I'm continuing to work on all aspects of my play and its working, slowly. I think you're taking the phrase "probes and pylons" just a little too literally. Those are indeed the most important parts of macro, but as Cecil says in the OP spending your money correctly on production facilities and units is critical too. Note that I did not say making decisions about which units to build, merely getting a high income and spending it on things that aren't ridiculously wrong will get you farther than you think.
But "spending your money correctly on production facilities" and "making decisions about which units to build" are closely linked.
Especially as Terran where each structure+addon combo can only build a small selection of units.
Edit : The funny thing is that OP never made the "just A-move army after pylons and probe and win" claim, he does acknowledge the importance of building the right units, defending stuff like cloaked banshees, and having good army positioning before an engage. Obviously some macrobots tried to hijack the thread since then.
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On April 07 2012 15:04 LazinCajun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 14:16 DrLOAC wrote:
I agree with the folks who are sayings it's more than "probes and pylons", (or SCVs and Depots in my case)
As a forever Bronze, I've learned the following about my play in order of importance:
It's SCVs and Depots
And Barracks, Factories, and Starports
And scouting
And ups
And unit compostion
And micro
I've lost plenty of games where I had more workers,
Lost games where I had more workers, and more production
Lost games where I had more workers, more production, more army and failed to scout tech changes.
Where I had all of the above and failed to engage correctly, (MMM V vs P deathball anyone?)
While I could have won many of these games if I had even better macro it's stilldisheartening to lose when your macro was better than your opponent.
I'm continuing to work on all aspects of my play and its working, slowly. I think you're taking the phrase "probes and pylons" just a little too literally. Those are indeed the most important parts of macro, but as Cecil says in the OP spending your money correctly on production facilities and units is critical too. Note that I did not say making decisions about which units to build, merely getting a high income and spending it on things that aren't ridiculously wrong will get you farther than you think.
Honestly, that advice applies to masters too. I regularly messup my builds and I play mid masters, and I mean like royally mess them up to the point where my timings on certain builds can be different by entire minutes sometimes.
Low level players really need to work on Probes and Pylons --> Having a plan. It's proven time and time again that when you think in sc2 you play extremely slowly. Why do you think the Koreans are so good and have such high apm? It's not because they are debating if colli or templar would be good in this situation it's I'm making templar and their body just does it, they get the right amount of gates etc through practice.
If you're in bronze, silver or gold focus and stare down your command centers/nexus/hatches and never miss probes/drones/scv's, have a plan to get 2 barracks before you expand etc and you will link everything together. Over the course of 5 or 6 games you'll be starting to do the same things over and over.
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"Probes and pylons" sounds too much like "don't have a build at all, just make units" which isn't really what you're saying in the OP. Something that was repeated often in 2010-11 before Day9's probes/pylons daily was that people outside the very top level should only have one build per matchup so you can focus on mechanics more instead of playing reactively or on the opposite end of the spectrum, blindly.
I do disagree with Destiny's statements that you don't need to know strategy at all, knowing when to add gas/production/expos is essential to good macro and doesn't come too naturally. "You shouldn't theorycraft" is a better statement than "you shouldn't learn builds."
Basically it's a good OP that everyone should read but "Pylons and Probes" doesn't sum it up effectively.
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In low leagues you rpobably only play 3-4 games a week.
to maintain a build that
has no supply blocks
constantly produces probes
constantly produces units
takes a LOT of planning and requires perfect execution.
People in low leagues prtobably know and accept that they cant meet either of those requirements.
You are looking at something that is true for all strong players and then assuming its the *cause*
it isnt, that is just one of the results of a lot of hard work, practise and planning/tweaking.
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Great post Cecil. I definitely think people don't realize how much smaller their army will get if they skip some probes here and there or get pylon blocked.
But I would agree that macroing your way to master with pylons and probes is just ONE way to play the game and get better.
I think there are many other ways to improve your game that shouldn't always be discarded as "inferior".
- mechanics/execution: I've laddered accounts to master using only a perfect 4 gate. I've also taught some of my friends to execute a perfect 4 gate (same build for all matchups) and gotten them from bronze to diamond
- strategy: Last time for fun I played on a gold account and limited myself to a very low APM (with an apple trackpad). I won some games with a low as 15 average APM up to playing diamond players before I had to stop. Would be fun to see if I can get to master with a trackpad and no keyboard. If you know what you're doing and how to counter builds, scout etc... you have a HUGE lead on your opponent.
- unit control(micro) : make 3 gates a twilight council and blink stalkers and relentlessly attack with blink micro, stalker control.
Basically, I wholeheartedly agree that macroing is a sure way to improve, never missing a probe or a pylon, and keeping your money low. But there are many other ways to play the game and improve.
When I started SC2 I was placed in copper league with no prior RTS experience and I laddered all the way to diamond (then master when it came out) with one base builds. Then I focused on macro management. I can understand the low league players that are discouraged to hear "pylon and probes" because down there, it's seriously cannon rush, proxy gates, 6 pool, roach all in, and 3 rax all-in every other game.
tl, dr; There's nothing wrong with improving other aspects of your game before getting to the macro part.
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Anyone who disagrees and is under high masters need to stop lying to themselves
Your macro sucks, work on it
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Italy12246 Posts
By the way, this really reminds me of the question i asked you when you coached me, "why is my stuff a few seconds too late compared to progamers!"
Answer (been watching my own replays a lot to figure that out): because i have very slight pauses in probe production. Half a second here, a second there while microing a scout, another two seconds late on a chronoboost...and bam all of a suden my build is delayed by 5-10 seconds. And this is in high diamond/low master, lower it's probably even worse.
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I'm high silver at the moment. I've hit a wall, in that i didn't progress in rank for like 40 games. I will be the first to say to my macro is not very good, i got supplyblocked often etc. But as much as I would like to believe that macro would be the answer to everything, I just cant understand how people can say that. For example I play Protoss. When you meet another protoss, to me, it is not about macro but about micro. It is very hard to expand. Mismicro your 4gate versus his 3gate robo and lose. Mismicro your 3gate robo versus his 4gate and lose. Mismicro your initial units and lose to fast stalkers. Blink into some unseen immortals and lose. In none of these situations I feel that 1 stalker or zealot extra due to perfect macro would win you the game. Every protoss has done 4gate etc enough times to have a reasonable timing, even in silver/low gold.
Then vs zerg. You could macro like a boss, but if the zerg also macros (and most of them that I meet on ladder do), you'll still need good micro to be cost effective versus roaches, as stalkers are so much more expensive and zealots just get kited. And you'll need to anticipate a muta switch or you will still lose. I dont understand how pure macro can win this.Tips would be welcome.
Protoss vs Terran. This is the only matchup were I feel that macro would work, as zealots can be cost effective as long as they can actually hit anything, and good macro would lead to earlier collosi which wins you the game. But mismicro vs a drop and you can still lose.
All in all, i'm not really convinced. But i'll give it a try and will try to focus purely on not getting supplyblocked in my next games.
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On April 07 2012 19:50 Hylirion wrote:
I'm high silver at the moment. I've hit a wall, in that i didn't progress in rank for like 40 games. I will be the first to say to my macro is not very good, i got supplyblocked often etc. But as much as I would like to believe that macro would be the answer to everything, I just cant understand how people can say that. For example I play Protoss. When you meet another protoss, to me, it is not about macro but about micro. It is very hard to expand. Mismicro your 4gate versus his 3gate robo and lose. Mismicro your 3gate robo versus his 4gate and lose. Mismicro your initial units and lose to fast stalkers. Blink into some unseen immortals and lose. In none of these situations I feel that 1 stalker or zealot extra due to perfect macro would win you the game. Every protoss has done 4gate etc enough times to have a reasonable timing, even in silver/low gold.
Then vs zerg. You could macro like a boss, but if the zerg also macros (and most of them that I meet on ladder do), you'll still need good micro to be cost effective versus roaches, as stalkers are so much more expensive and zealots just get kited. And you'll need to anticipate a muta switch or you will still lose. I dont understand how pure macro can win this.Tips would be welcome.
Protoss vs Terran. This is the only matchup were I feel that macro would work, as zealots can be cost effective as long as they can actually hit anything, and good macro would lead to earlier collosi which wins you the game. But mismicro vs a drop and you can still lose.
All in all, i'm not really convinced. But i'll give it a try and will try to focus purely on not getting supplyblocked in my next games.
Macroing doesn't give you "1 stalker or zealot extra". As the OP says, you're underestimating the value of macro. You're focusing on unit counter, build order losses etc... when you should just focus on building probes, pylons and units.
You're also delusional to think that silver protosses have "reasonable timings" on 4gate and that silver Zergs can macro decently.
If you're on the EU server, I'm willing to play some games with you to show you what I mean and give you some tips on where to improve, PM me if interested 
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On April 06 2012 17:57 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 16:49 Belial88 wrote:
Generally, anytime someone is arguing with a high masters/blue, especially on something big, it's because they have no fucking clue what they are talking about (hey, I've been guilty of it many times, and every time, I was completely wrong).
I don't think these lower level people realize just how much better someone a league up is, or a high masters is, then them. You won't have a single high level player saying macro isn't the absolute most important thing in the game.
So quit arguing with a high masters blue poster here. He really knows his shit, you don't. To think that you would know more about this game, with the less than 1,000 games you've played, less than 100 hours logged on playing starcraft ever in your life, against someone with 10,000+ games played with over 1,000+ hours logged in, who's followed starcraft for about 8 years longer than you have, is just ridiculous.
Like you caught something he didn't get. It's like trying to tell Michael Jordan on the nuances of basketball. Holy shit. As a lower league player I 100% agree. Macro is the most important thing (as in constant production, no supply blocks and keeping money low). BUT and this is the point ML/GML players seem to consider as "easy" ppl lack also in Multitasking. And i dont mean Multitasking in a sense as in "dropping 3 places at one while microing the shit out of my tank/marine army while expanding and Planting 3 additional barracks" Most lower league players I know actually have decent makro IF (and thats the big IF) left alone to "Probes & Pylons & Army" 12 minutes roach max out? Give a Gold player 10 - 20 tries to figure out Gas and Roachwarren timings and sooner or later he WILL hit the max out around 12 minutes. Now put the same player against another player. You will see his money rise, you will see him miss injects, you will see him getting supply blocked, you will see him with mass idle larvae. Why? Did he suddenly unlearn everything he learned for the last 30 games? Did he suddenly forget how to macro? Let me take this to an area im better in: Martial Arts Tell your Students how important are basics. Train basics every day, after they learned their basics quite well (as in starcraft there is no "perfect") let them train with a Shinai (wooden sword). After they learned their basics there and they are quite competent with their weapon, give them REAL weapons. All of a sudden everything is different, they dont remember the basics, they dont remember the techniques. All they see is the sharp edge of the other students sword. How is it any different of what we trained? Its not. Does it FEEL different? Hell yes! It feels a LOT different. So back to starcraft: In a "macro only situation" there is no need for scouting, no need to react to changing situations, no need to deal with early aggression, no need to remember the opponents timings, no need for even basic army micro. Its just probes + pylons + army. You NEED multitasking, you NEED to get away from the "If i dont look at my army, it will die!" feeling (altough it happens from time to time), you NEED to do may things and priorize these things. That is the hardest thing to do if you have just a small amount of actions available. Even if you KNOW what to do, ppl tend to make mistakes in stressful situations. Another point ML/GML seem to just ignore. Playing competitive against complete strangers IS stressful for the most low league players. Its even stressful to me. Stress is different for different ppl. I could tell you that it isnt a stressful situation if 2 ppl want to get you in a bar brawl. To me it isnt, to you it possibly might be. So multitasking, handspeed/precision, mindset ist the MOST important part to me, because without these 3 Pillars everything else WILL suffer. I think thats the reason why 1 or 2 base all-ins are so powerful in lower leagues. First you focus on probes and pylons and after you reached "the end" of probes and pylons you focus on army (+ warpins for example). You just have to focus on one thing instead of two or more. just my toughts
I would say 100% of people in Bronze to Gold just genuinely do not understand how to play the game. Not, like they don't know how to play the game like 99% of midmasters do not understand map control and when to drone up and make units - but as in, you don't know the hotkeys yet. You don't realize the nuances of holding shift, control, alt, or a combination of those buttons, in conjunction with hotkeys, right click, left click, et cetera. You don't fully understand what units, counter what units - you may know "a banshee beats a roach", although most of bronze to gold don't, but you definitely don't understand things like "roaches counter stalkers at X timing" or "roaches counter thors, despite on paper it being opposite".
When someone says 'lower level player', I don't consider Bronze to Gold 'lower level'. That would be like saying my grandfather is a 'lower level MW2 player' - no, he just doesn't know how to play the game yet.
It's not an insult, this is an extremely complex game, and I'm sure if a blue like Cecil saw me play, he'd laugh and say I didn't know what the fuck I was doing at all (and he'd be right). You can watch the many things, like Gheed's Worker Rushing in Bronze. Oh, you can hold a worker rush? Great - but you being in the same league as people like this, means you play just at the same level, and make just as ridiculous of mistakes.
You are completely wrong that lower level people have 'decent macro'. You are so wrong. You making that comment, just proves that you have no clue what decent macro is. Please, please provide a replay showing your 'decent macro' in a ladder game. I'll happily eat my words. I've actually done it many times on this forum (eat my words), every time I argued with a blue poster.
What I think is going on, is you have never, ever, ever played with a GM level player (or perhaps diamond, really). You don't realize just how bad you really are. It took playing with a GM for me to realize how much of a fucking idiot I really was. I used to be just like you - 'oh yea, I macro really well, i never get supply blocked!'. Turns out, you can avoid supply blocks 100% and still have atrocious macro. But I guarantee that every bronze to diamond player gets supply blocked at least once before the 8 minute mark.
I seriously do not believe a bronze-gold player can play against easy AI and max out in 12 minutes on roaches.
The reason 1 and 2 base all-ins are strong in bronze-gold is because no one macros well. So 'timings' exist that are just completely nonsensical anywhere else. Like many people have said, "anything is viable in diamond- league".
I could guarantee I can beat anyone in bronze-gold with just pure banelings, or roaches, or queens, or whatever. Just like a High masters could troll the shit out of me, and beat me with pure queen, pure marauder, pure queen, or whatever. There's just that large a difference in the macro.
Bronze to Gold is not a 'low level player'. It's someone who doesn't know the hotkeys yet, who doesn't know all the nuances of the controls. I would say 'lower level' is more like platinum to low masters, who understands the command prompts, but may or may not know what the fuck they are doing.
I mean really, just pay Cecil $20 to coach you for an hour, and by the end, you'll realize how much of an insolent brat you are for ever doubting a High Masters/GM level player. I used to be such an insolent brat, and my TL Warning & Ban History can attest to that. Now, I am ashamed I ever talked back to a blue poster, and high masters players, and I've learned I have no fucking clue what I'm doing.
I mean literally. Cecil, and every other blue and high master, spend like 5+ hours every day on starcraft. For the last 10 years. How long have you been in starcraft? Oh, what, you are gold, and only been around for a year, and only play on the weekends? What, you didn't even get to D+ on ICCUP? What, you never even played ICCUP?
You realize, that these guys were like B+ on ICCUP, which is like high masters, on BW, 10 years ago. Do you realize how crazy it is that you somehow figured something out to this game that they simply forgot? Don't you think it's odd that how every, single, high masters+ player says macro is the most important thing? Or are they just all assholes and wrong? I mean I get it, I did the same thing a lot too. Just find someone who's GM or High Masters, and have him play with you for a few games. You'll realize just how bad you are so quickly.
I mean anyone who played on ICCUP, is at least Masters. That should tell you something. Don't be surprised that after a year of playing, you can't get past Gold. Where do you think idra was for the first year he played?
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I just had someone go forge/gateway in masters. Masters.
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On April 07 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:
I just had someone go forge/gateway in masters. Masters.
What's wrong with forge/gateway ? Maybe you want to hit an early 7:20-7:30 warpgate timing, but still be safe from early pool builds ?
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Lol Belial, relax.
Eassyy.
I mean I agree with everything you said, it's downright hilarious that people try to argue when they don't know what they are talking about, but you are coming off too strong there.
Anyway, I agree that Bronze-Gold players just do NOT know how to play the game yet. Which is why, even though I am simply low Masters and not qualified to really coach anyone in SC2, when I was teaching my silver Zerg friend, I told her to just forget about trying to do anything near what she has watched on streams or read on TL. The only thing you can do in lower leagues to get better is to learn basic unit composition (as in, you shouldn't be making roaches against void rays herr derr) and the basic rules for your race (i.e. zerg wants to be a base ahead of their counterparts). That's it. No timings, no emphasis on macro, just play play play until you acquire somewhat DECENT multitasking. To the point that someone can actually look at your game and say "Oh okay, NOW you're losing because you need to learn how to make more drones at X time). Because prior to that, even if you know you should macro more, you just don't have enough games logged to have the focus or multitasking to even make those drones/scvs/probes, much less know WHEN to be making them.
Which leads me to say, as sad as it is to say this, if you're one of those low league players that wants to get better but can only log in a few games here and there due to work or school or whatever, I'm sorry, but you're simply not going to get better for a long, long time.
That's just how it is.
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On April 07 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:
I just had someone go forge/gateway in masters. Masters. What's wrong with forge/gateway ? Maybe you want to hit an early 7:20-7:30 warpgate timing, but still be safe from early pool builds ?
Except your econ is pretty heavily impacted so that early gateway timing is going to be not nearly as strong, it's just completely pointless to go forge gateway.
You're basically hoping your opponent doesn't scout you and doesn't know that the only reasonable option coming from a forge/gateway opening is a really early gateway timing.
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High Silver Zerg here just adding my opinions.
I completely agree with the thread and playing in the lower leagues, it's astounding how rare it is to see my opponent expand (getting a third base only after their main and natural are mined out) or having 3 bases, and only 50 workers at the 15 minute mark.
The problem I have and I expect many other lower league players have as a Zerg is when to build drones or units, due to the way Zerg produces units. I've lost so many games where I thought it would be safe to build a round of drones, then a push or drop came into my base that I simply wasn't prepared for, or I tried to drone up as much as possible early game and a random timing that I failed to scout from my opponent completely catches me off guard. This is something that I expect is helped a lot with experience. Also I'd like to add there's a lots of other problems with my play that I am aware of such as forgetting overlords at some points, but knowing when to drone is one of the most notable.
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On April 07 2012 20:44 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On April 07 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:
I just had someone go forge/gateway in masters. Masters. What's wrong with forge/gateway ? Maybe you want to hit an early 7:20-7:30 warpgate timing, but still be safe from early pool builds ? Except your econ is pretty heavily impacted so that early gateway timing is going to be not nearly as strong, it's just completely pointless to go forge gateway. You're basically hoping your opponent doesn't scout you and doesn't know that the only reasonable option coming from a forge/gateway opening is a really early gateway timing.
Lol no I fail to see how delaying your nexus by 150 minerals is "pretty heavily impacting" my econ. 150 minerals is like 15 seconds mining time at that point in the game. I've tried all sorts of gateway timings, and with an early warpin, jsut the threat of 4-5 +1 zealots walking to their base at an earlier timing is enough to make them skip a round of drone which has a lot more impact than being 15 sec late on nexus timing.
Although all in all I do prefer the nexus first, or forge nexus gate for various reason, earlier second gas, tech possibiities, etc... I don't really see why you would immediately discard forge/gateway as being horrible. I've seen master player do much crazier builds.
Also, the fact that it is "scoutable" is pretty much irrelevant as to whether or not it's a usuable build. If that were the case, than you would never see any 6 pools or proxy gates at high levels.
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I feel I should point out that the games in the OP's vod aren't "probes and pylons" games. There's warp prism harass, killing creep / moving army around, blink stalker micro, warping in reinforcements, force-fields and adding on production structures. You won because you did all of that and didn't happen to face any aggression at all, not because you remembered probes and pylons.
In the terran game, you get supply blocked at 62 for quite a while... More importantly the reason you survived the protoss attack was unit control / decision making (build another bunker, attack with SCVs when the bunkers were down) at the same time as producing more units. You could have not built any SCVs or made any depots during that time, and you'd still have won once you held off the attack. Also, if you'd just pulled SCVs earlier (when he was lurking outside), you might have saved both bunkers you already had just fine (more decision making), instead of being barely alive. Decision making / micro were way more important in this game.
On April 07 2012 20:03 Belial88 wrote:
I would say 100% of people in Bronze to Gold just genuinely do not understand how to play the game. Not, like they don't know how to play the game like 99% of midmasters do not understand map control and when to drone up and make units - but as in, you don't know the hotkeys yet. You don't realize the nuances of holding shift, control, alt, or a combination of those buttons, in conjunction with hotkeys, right click, left click, et cetera. You don't fully understand what units, counter what units - you may know "a banshee beats a roach", although most of bronze to gold don't, but you definitely don't understand things like "roaches counter stalkers at X timing" or "roaches counter thors, despite on paper it being opposite".
[...]
Don't you think it's odd that how every, single, high masters+ player says macro is the most important thing? Or are they just all assholes and wrong?
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If someone doesn't know hotkeys / controls / units / whatever, don't they have something much more important to work on than macro?
Personally I find it bizarre that anyone (Masters or no) says anything so ridiculous as "just macro". Especially without defining exactly what they mean by macro.
Do you mean producing units? What about upgrades? Base management / managing saturation? Decision making about when to expand? Decision making about when to make more production? All of them? They could all be considered macro. You're telling people to macro better, without actually telling them how, or what they should be focussing on.
Any single one of these is also laughably simple on it's own. When you put them together, it's a lot harder. When you're playing someone on the ladder, and have to take into account everything else that you should be doing as well (scouting, map control, waaay more decision making), it becomes infinitely more complex.
That's why I support the guy who says that multi-tasking far more of an issue than "macro". Doing any one of the things listed on it's own is pretty useless. Doing all of them makes someone a better player.
An example:
I decided to use a 2 rax TvP build a few weeks ago, figured out what units to produce, and what tech structures to build when I had the money. Then I tried it on the ladder.
Dear god did it suck so badly I nearly gave up. But I did notice that my 2 rax was a whole 30 seconds late, because I screwed up the build order. So I fixed that... and still lost every game.
Then I looked at my production - SCVs and units. It was awful. When I was figuring out the build, I pretty much just ignored the units, and concentrated on production / tech. On ladder I was microing as well, and when I did that, my production went out the window.
So I went back to the single player, and microed my units around, while making sure I kept producing.
On ladder, though, I still kept missing tech structures - it was really hard to figure out when I had the money, while microing and keeping up production. So I used single player to fix exact times that I go back to my base and make the tech structures.
Having done all that, I found that my APM was way up (~60, instead of ~40), and I was winning some games. But not all of them, because I wasn't making the right decisions based on what the Protoss was doing. So I spent a while figuring out when to scout / what decisions to make. I still haven't figured it all out, but my TvP win rate is now ~80%, instead of ~20%.
To sum up. I had to do all the things to really start winning games. Sure, I had to focus on individual elements, but in the end it was doing micro, production, tech and decision making all at once, that actually helped me start to win games. Yes, at one stage my production was terrible, but it was only a symptom of my lack of ability to do everything at once (multi-tasking).
Perhaps my issues aren't the same for every low league player, but this is my experience.
EDIT:
Also, just to point out that anyone (I'm high gold - though the account used in the replay is silver (it's my messing around / testing / playing zerg account)) can max out on roaches at 12 minutes: http://drop.sc/155226
I think I'm actually ~10 seconds slow (and the final roaches are still in production), but there's plenty of things that could be easily improved. I made an unnecessary macro hatch + extra queen (and forgot to hotkey it), get supply blocked once, have drones long range mining the third before it finishes, don't keep enough drones for gas at the first / second bases, batch lots of overlords and miss an inject at the start. But I play terran, so I figure that's ok.
If I fix those things, I'm still not going to be winning on ladder.
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On April 07 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:
I just had someone go forge/gateway in masters. Masters. What's wrong with forge/gateway ? Maybe you want to hit an early 7:20-7:30 warpgate timing, but still be safe from early pool builds ?
haha, of course of course. Why go 1 base 4 gate at 6:30 when you can do it at 7:30 when both gate first and forge first are safe from early pools 
Which leads me to say, as sad as it is to say this, if you're one of those low league players that wants to get better but can only log in a few games here and there due to work or school or whatever, I'm sorry, but you're simply not going to get better for a long, long time.
That's just how it is.
I think a big problem is that bronze-diamond people just watch streams and reddit and tournaments way too much. Like, pro players, they *never* follow a full tourney. Like ever. They don't have time. You can't be GM and waste 2 hours a day of free time you have watching games instead of actually playing. They don't follow the forums either (notice the total lack of pros who post here), because they don't need to 'waste' their time here (i can assure you, most high masters say this place is a cesspool of bad misinformation spread by people like, well, me, and since they know everything, they don't need to be here to learn anything new).
Except your econ is pretty heavily impacted so that early gateway timing is going to be not nearly as strong, it's just completely pointless to go forge gateway.
You're basically hoping your opponent doesn't scout you and doesn't know that the only reasonable option coming from a forge/gateway opening is a really early gateway timing.
I think he was trolling. Everyone knows both gate first and forge first are totally safe from early pools, so there is no point to go forge/gate on 1 base as an opening. Seeing something like that is a record in masters - I've seen forge/gate 1 base in diamond, but never masters before. I've seen some pretty bad stuff in low masters, like FFE with no wall into a plain 8 gate where the 8 gates were laid down at 8:00 mark and he took 4 gas and made sentries as his first units.
The problem I have and I expect many other lower league players have as a Zerg is when to build drones or units, due to the way Zerg produces units. I've lost so many games where I thought it would be safe to build a round of drones, then a push or drop came into my base that I simply wasn't prepared for, or I tried to drone up as much as possible early game and a random timing that I failed to scout from my opponent completely catches me off guard. This is something that I expect is helped a lot with experience. Also I'd like to add there's a lots of other problems with my play that I am aware of such as forgetting overlords at some points, but knowing when to drone is one of the most notable.
Learn about map control. It was something I never understood until mid-masters, but it's a huge factor in how you drone up in the midgame. Also, 1st overlord to spot by their natural for expo/gas count/droning, and try to get a 2nd overlord near their main (send 2nd overlord, made at 9, as soon as your pool finishes and it's done spotting your natural for shenanigans like bunkers/cannons/spines).
Lol no I fail to see how delaying your nexus by 150 minerals is "pretty heavily impacting" my econ. 150 minerals is like 15 seconds mining time at that point in the game. I've tried all sorts of gateway timings, and with an early warpin, jsut the threat of 4-5 +1 zealots walking to their base at an earlier timing is enough to make them skip a round of drone which has a lot more impact than being 15 sec late on nexus timing.
Although all in all I do prefer the nexus first, or forge nexus gate for various reason, earlier second gas, tech possibiities, etc... I don't really see why you would immediately discard forge/gateway as being horrible. I've seen master player do much crazier builds.
Also, the fact that it is "scoutable" is pretty much irrelevant as to whether or not it's a usuable build. If that were the case, than you would never see any 6 pools or proxy gates at high levels.
He wasn't going FFE.... he went forge first, at the top of his ramp, placed the same way as you would with a gateway first opening. Then he did a bad cannon rush against a pool first build (it's possible, if the person isn't patrolling a drone, and his execution was horrid - he didn't commit more than 1 pylon and 1 cancelled cannon though), then went gateway at top of ramp. He didn't put forge on low ground, he didn't try to wall the ramp at the natural. He very clearly was going forge/gate, as in after his gateway, he grabbed 2 gas and cybercore.
I get there are some interesting all-ins with forge/gate, but that's with gate first, forge as reaction to hatch first. I didn't go hatch first, and he went forge first, not hatch first, and he didn't make either particular quick or as a follow up.
You are reading way too deep into it Geiko. He went forge at 13 at the top of his ramp, then gateway at like 17, then core and 2xgas.
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If someone doesn't know hotkeys / controls / units / whatever, don't they have something much more important to work on than macro?
No, I'm not contradicting myself. I made myself clear when I said "I consider lower level as plat-low masters". So, 'lower level players' need to follow the OP's advice of probes and pylons. People in Bronze-Gold, who are essentially just people learning how to mechanically interact with this game still, or basically casuals, need to just log games and learn how to interact with the UI.
It's like, people in bronze to gold are below level 60 in WoW. There's a lot of content, but you aren't really playing the game yet. Then you hit level 60 at platinum, and that's where you actually start playing WoW, with the raids and stuff. Maybe this analogy is confusing because you can hit like level 100 now and raids don't exist but...
Personally I find it bizarre that anyone (Masters or no) says anything so ridiculous as "just macro". Especially without defining exactly what they mean by macro.
Do you mean producing units? What about upgrades? Base management / managing saturation? Decision making about when to expand? Decision making about when to make more production? All of them? They could all be considered macro. You're telling people to macro better, without actually telling them how, or what they should be focussing on.
To clarify, what I mean by macro: I mean in the first 9 minutes of the game, avoiding supply blocks, avoiding making supply earlier than when the supply is 99% done you are at Max/Max, avoiding making multiple supply at once when you clearly don't have the production to warrant it, avoiding making multiple supply to overcompensate when it's too early in the game and it actually hurts more than helps (just avoid the next supply block, move on, you don't need 2 depots at once at 18 supply), constant worker production as T/P and NEVER having idle larva as Z, never queing up units and never missing injects or warp ins, not taking your gas too early, and not taking your gas too late, and never banking more than 100 minerals (if you need a nexus or whatever, obviously, be ready to plant it exactly at necessary amount, and not going over that amount by 100 minerals).
It's very simple to do this in the first 9 minutes, but 'lower level players' generally can never do this. Fuck dude - I'm mid masters, I come across pros on ladder (albeit very, very rarely), and I, without fail, fuck this up royally every single game (including against easy AI too). I have over 100 APM (i dont spam), and I can assure you, that my macro is better than any lower league player, and compared to most players my level. But I promise you, I promise you, that anyone lower level than me, has much worse macro. If you are not just 100 points lower than me in masters, but actually diamond, or bronze - forget about it, your macro is sooo behind. You really, really don't realize it.
Here's this: If you think you have good macro as a bronze-gold player, please post a replay, and I promise you we will find very, very dumb mistakes in the first 10 minutes. Please submit the most boring and plain games you can too. Whatever you think makes you look best.
If you can manage all of that, things like bases taken, upgrades, et cetera, will come naturally. You can't constantly produce workers, never get blocked, and then not tech up or take more bases without banking a ton of money. It just won't work out.
If you can macro out fine in the first 9 minutes, the rest of the stuff like builds are pretty straightforward. You will just naturally start to realize, hey, toss can't do shit to me, I can take a third, or hey, I have total map control now against hellions, I can take a third against T, et cetera. Don't macro well, and it's like 'fuck I keep losing to stuff I didn't scout!'.
Well, sorry man. But if you macro well, things like 1 base mass void ray or banshees aren't an issue. You can't possibly lose to mass 1 base void ray if you macro well. You will just have too many drones that you can put down a million spores and laugh it off. But these 'timings' exist in the lower levels, so in bronze, people are like 'omg i have to worry about thors/banshees/vikings/ghosts/marines/marauders/battlecruisers/carriers/mass voids/dts/ etc because your timings are off. Tighten your macro, and it becomes "Does he have a 2nd gas? Okay, he can either be going expand, or something that needs 1 spore crawler and 2 extra queens".
That's why I support the guy who says that multi-tasking far more of an issue than "macro". Doing any one of the things listed on it's own is pretty useless. Doing all of them makes someone a better player.
I promise you, I'll beat any bronze-gold without multitasking anything. I'll never harass, I'll never counterattack, I'll never flank or spread, I'll only a-move, I'll put all units on same hotkey (or no hotkey). I'll still win 10/10.
Multitasking is useful at like GM level. Otherwise, not really. Mass roach. Mass stalkers. Mass marine/tank. That'll handle anything really.
To sum up. I had to do all the things to really start winning games. Sure, I had to focus on individual elements, but in the end it was doing micro, production, tech and decision making all at once, that actually helped me start to win games. Yes, at one stage my production was terrible, but it was only a symptom of my lack of ability to do everything at once (multi-tasking).
Perhaps my issues aren't the same for every low league player, but this is my experience.
i don't think most people consider constant worker production, making sure to follow a BO and plant buildings on time, avoiding supply blocks, and not making supply too early to too many at once, ie probes & pylons, is multitasking.
But in reality, yes, it is. You do need about 70+ APM to be effective for basic macro. It's an extremely multitasking-stressful game, even at the most basic level. But it's not 'you need multitasking' when you are just talking about probes&pylons. People would consider multitasking things like setting up flanks, dealing with harass, micro. What you are talking about is not 'multitasking'. It's basic macro, which, confusingly, yes, requires some multitask ability. You are learning to play the basics of the game.
This game is hard as fuck.
By the way, I played FXOasd today (pretty sure it was, or maybe it was a platinum screwed by ladder lock). It's ZvP, on entombed. He blocked my third with a pylon, that couldn't be taken out because my lings were distracted by another probe. It caused my third to go down a little late (which is fine), and then he pushed with zealot/stalker. The thing is, higher level players, really, only pros, can do amazing things with their units, and make them soooo efficient (so amazing macro + extreme unit efficiency, is ridiculous). He used 1 zealot and 2 stalkers, with a warp in 2 minutes later of just 4 units, to kill over 30 lings and 8 roaches. I eventually held, but he had taken a third behind it while macro'ing up immortal/sentry at home.
He just literally trolled the fuck out of me with less than 10 units. That's just how much better FXOasd (or a platinum, tt) is than me. It was pathetic. And he didn't play particularly special, I would imagine any high masters would do the same thing and he would troll them just the same too). You don't get it, just how much better some people can be at this game. Someone like a Blue poster, like Cecil. He's just fucking god at this game compared to you.
Seriously. How dare you question him. If only he could waste the time to play you and make you pay for your insolence.
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EPT
