EPT[D] Underused Tactic in Lower Leagues - Page 10
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LazinCajun
United States294 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 09 2012 05:01 LazinCajun wrote: I don't think it's fair to say master's level macro is "poor." Perhaps saying it still has holes is more accurate. Well it's just my personal and subjective opinion. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
I would say 100% of people in Bronze to Gold just genuinely do not understand how to play the game. Not, like they don't know how to play the game like 99% of midmasters do not understand map control and when to drone up and make units - but as in, you don't know the hotkeys yet. You don't realize the nuances of holding shift, control, alt, or a combination of those buttons, in conjunction with hotkeys, right click, left click, et cetera. You don't fully understand what units, counter what units - you may know "a banshee beats a roach", although most of bronze to gold don't, but you definitely don't understand things like "roaches counter stalkers at X timing" or "roaches counter thors, despite on paper it being opposite". When someone says 'lower level player', I don't consider Bronze to Gold 'lower level'. That would be like saying my grandfather is a 'lower level MW2 player' - no, he just doesn't know how to play the game yet. It's not an insult, this is an extremely complex game, and I'm sure if a blue like Cecil saw me play, he'd laugh and say I didn't know what the fuck I was doing at all (and he'd be right). You can watch the many things, like Gheed's Worker Rushing in Bronze. Oh, you can hold a worker rush? Great - but you being in the same league as people like this, means you play just at the same level, and make just as ridiculous of mistakes. You are completely wrong that lower level people have 'decent macro'. You are so wrong. You making that comment, just proves that you have no clue what decent macro is. Please, please provide a replay showing your 'decent macro' in a ladder game. I'll happily eat my words. I've actually done it many times on this forum (eat my words), every time I argued with a blue poster. What I think is going on, is you have never, ever, ever played with a GM level player (or perhaps diamond, really). You don't realize just how bad you really are. It took playing with a GM for me to realize how much of a fucking idiot I really was. I used to be just like you - 'oh yea, I macro really well, i never get supply blocked!'. Turns out, you can avoid supply blocks 100% and still have atrocious macro. But I guarantee that every bronze to diamond player gets supply blocked at least once before the 8 minute mark. I seriously do not believe a bronze-gold player can play against easy AI and max out in 12 minutes on roaches. The reason 1 and 2 base all-ins are strong in bronze-gold is because no one macros well. So 'timings' exist that are just completely nonsensical anywhere else. Like many people have said, "anything is viable in diamond- league". I could guarantee I can beat anyone in bronze-gold with just pure banelings, or roaches, or queens, or whatever. Just like a High masters could troll the shit out of me, and beat me with pure queen, pure marauder, pure queen, or whatever. There's just that large a difference in the macro. Bronze to Gold is not a 'low level player'. It's someone who doesn't know the hotkeys yet, who doesn't know all the nuances of the controls. I would say 'lower level' is more like platinum to low masters, who understands the command prompts, but may or may not know what the fuck they are doing. I mean really, just pay Cecil $20 to coach you for an hour, and by the end, you'll realize how much of an insolent brat you are for ever doubting a High Masters/GM level player. I used to be such an insolent brat, and my TL Warning & Ban History can attest to that. Now, I am ashamed I ever talked back to a blue poster, and high masters players, and I've learned I have no fucking clue what I'm doing. I mean literally. Cecil, and every other blue and high master, spend like 5+ hours every day on starcraft. For the last 10 years. How long have you been in starcraft? Oh, what, you are gold, and only been around for a year, and only play on the weekends? What, you didn't even get to D+ on ICCUP? What, you never even played ICCUP? You realize, that these guys were like B+ on ICCUP, which is like high masters, on BW, 10 years ago. Do you realize how crazy it is that you somehow figured something out to this game that they simply forgot? Don't you think it's odd that how every, single, high masters+ player says macro is the most important thing? Or are they just all assholes and wrong? I mean I get it, I did the same thing a lot too. Just find someone who's GM or High Masters, and have him play with you for a few games. You'll realize just how bad you are so quickly. I mean anyone who played on ICCUP, is at least Masters. That should tell you something. Don't be surprised that after a year of playing, you can't get past Gold. Where do you think idra was for the first year he played? You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold. I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold. I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote: Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Why are you ignoring me?  | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
I am? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold. I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. I would argue you are vastly overselling. There is an even larger skill gap between diamond and lower masters, yet low masters doesn't macro well at all. And bottom of bronze are like 10 year olds, handicapped people, and portrait farming or bots. Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. You are obviously either a troll, or just seriously... worse than you think you are. There is no such thing as 'worker combat'. That was the whole point of Gheed's blogs. That you just a-move, and you will win, because you have 2-4 more workers than the worker rusher. Horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff... are you really serious? Please, read gheed's blogs. And I seriously doubt you are better at anything else. Submit a replay of your best macro, or a game you think you lost because of something other than macro or an obvious mismacro. I seriously doubt you play this game at what most would consider a competent level, if you are defending losing to worker rushing. I don't think it's fair to say master's level macro is "poor." Perhaps saying it still has holes is more accurate. I think most masters would say master's level macro is pretty poor. At masters people start to understand how to analyze their game and how to get better, and just how truly shitty they are. It's not holes, many lower masters have some pretty glaring errors in their macro early on. So it's funny when someone below masters insists they have good macro. Cecil's last few posts, I think have been pretty informative. | ||
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sOm
United States43 Posts
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Grohg
United States243 Posts
I remember one game on Steppes of War (God forbid that name be spoken) in which I thought I played the best game of my life because my money was always low and I got my injects down on two bases for a good amount of time. I won the game and was so excited that I had finally learned how to play a macro game and knew what to look for. My analysis of the game afterwards confirmed what I had believed as my opponent typed "gg." I was a macro beast...high money, nope...constant units, check. Sadly, I was far from it and my ability to gauge my current skill level was totally skewed by my lack of overall understanding. Think of it like this: It's like applying Newtonian gravity to everything and saying you understand how gravitational forces work. While you might have a very close representation of what is actually the case, it isn't sufficient enough to say that you understand gravitational physics. You can't even point out the own issues with Newton's theory without knowing more. Once you add in extra knowledge (in this case general relativity) you start to see the holes in the original thought process. The same can be said for SC...you need to have that extra insight in order to understand how to improve. It's not easy and it's why there are so many help threads on TL. For most people, there will be walls that you hit and you simply need a key piece of knowledge to help you break through. It can be something as small as making set supply timings for your overlords. Even though it might not be completely optimal and timings in a real game are not always clear, having an set method the your overlord production can drastically improve your ability to produce more drones/units. Later on, you might gain a better understanding of how to efficiently time your overlords and scrap your original method. The structure is simply a tool to gain that next tidbit of information that will help you continually progress. Just like general relativity patched up a lot of holes in Newton's theory, your improvement will help you improve more simply by pointing out flaws you wouldn't have noticed before. This is the approach everyone should take if they want to improve. You can't ever be content with your current level. Until you reach the very top, you know for certain that there are ways to get better. As long as there are people above you, it's impossible that you are doing things correctly...and even if you become the first player in SC2 history to win every major tournament you enter, there will be things you can improve. The OP gives good advice but I can see how some people could see it as painfully obvious and not helpful at all. It might seem vague but the fact is, improving is about the basics and all you really need to do as a lower level player is focus on those basics. I agree with others about having a plan; you should probably have a set strategy for each matchup so you aren't wasting brain power thinking about a build or style. Once you have this, focus on the very basic aspects of the game. One at a time, improve your ability to play smoothly. Build on what you know and improve the things that need attention. Find yourself a higher level player than you to point out things you normally wouldn't spot and have them explain it in detail. Sometimes you will hear something and it will simply click...then you're off to the races. gl, hf! | ||
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
Not for your OP on Probes and Pylon. I'm a platinum random player, I suck, my main problem is my macro and my inability to stay focused on what really matters (top-right and bottom-left corner of the screen) is why I'm losing games. Apart from the occasional "come on, I was playing so godly, I only lost because this or that is OP", I'm very conscious of this fact. The reason why I wanted to thank you is that I'm currently a student of a Social Psychology class, and one of the topic I'm currently dealing with is The Psychology of Self-Defense, i.e. how do people use motivational and cognitive strategies to preserve the image they have of themselves. Practically, they will actively deny anything that stands between who they really are and we call their "motivated illusion of themselves". This is usually not a problem: for instance, this system will help you forget that humiliating night where you got drunk and puked everywhere. However, it will all too often prevent you from improving: indeed, the first step in getting better is acknowledging that you have been so far mistaken in certain aspects, and this realization can be perceived as threatening. In this case, people want believe they are good at Starcraft, because they invest a significant amount of their time into the game, but also because they belong to a community that emphasize being good at Starcraft as a positive aspect of the self. In their opinion, it's OK to have some micro or strategic issues, because even pros have them. However, accepting that they do not even have the slightest grasp on the game is very threatening for their perceived self, and for this reason they will actively deny that their macro sucks. Long story short, responses to your topic are a trove of potential illustrations for this phenomenon, and anyone not believing in this theory should have a look at people like PinheadXXXX. It's absolutely compelling ! | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
-Everyone I know in silver-gold knows the letter hotkeys for their respective races perfectly. Its hard to tell how widespread this is, though. -Based on replay watching, only a smaller subset know about shift-queuing. IE sending a scout to visit all 3 spawns, or having it loop around the enemy's CC, or sending an SCV to build then back to mining. -Also most but not all hotkey all their production buildings. -Most people clearly the theory behind stutterstep and kiting, even if the execution is sloppy. The bigger problems I see are non-standard or overly defensive buildorders. Fixing those would be a much simpler source of improvement. Also some throw their games away with bad decisions that are easy to avoid -building hydras vs terran, or using pure roach vs bio, Both had big macro leads and lost. -walking waves of bio into a 10 siegetank position, 4 times. And we had been in a tank war prior to this, and he had been winning. -switching from marine/tank /viking war to mass BC while one base up. Those people all had an extremely flawed game understanding relative to their macro, and likely could have it fixed with a few minutes explanation of the matchup. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Long story short, responses to your topic are a trove of potential illustrations for this phenomenon, and anyone not believing in this theory should have a look at people like PinheadXXXX. It's absolutely compelling ! haha. I feel like that comment should be framed in TL hall of fame or something. "Im not good at worker combat but good at other things". Just the biggest fail I think I've ever seen. Ever. And he still hasn't submitted a replay of his supposed play where he doesn't make any glaring macro issues in the first 10 minutes. Charon submitted a replay showing how a gold could macro perfectly in first 10 minutes if playing by themselves, and his macro was horrible. He just wasn't aware of it, and he just ended up proving my point. | ||
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Ringall
Finland177 Posts
It just simply is not true. That is the exact piece of advice I received when I started in bronze. I began making probes (played protoss back then) non-stop. I would NEVER stop producing them. And look at that. I quickly went up to gold without any strategies or gameplans what so ever. I was just simply able to outproduce my opponent with my unit of choice (stalkers ftw) Only when I reached gold, I needed to start thinking of things like saturations and build orders :3 So yeah. Awesome Piece of advice Cecil. I hope I had seen something like this when I started :D | ||
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
On April 09 2012 17:39 Belial88 wrote: haha. I feel like that comment should be framed in TL hall of fame or something. "Im not good at worker combat but good at other things". Just the biggest fail I think I've ever seen. Ever. And he still hasn't submitted a replay of his supposed play where he doesn't make any glaring macro issues in the first 10 minutes. Charon submitted a replay showing how a gold could macro perfectly in first 10 minutes if playing by themselves, and his macro was horrible. He just wasn't aware of it, and he just ended up proving my point. Glad you liked it Belial  .The amount of delusion is indeed strong within this guy: "Hey, I can't walk, but I can run pretty well you know?!" | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 09 2012 17:59 Ringall wrote: I see a lot of "lol making drones is bad - I just die" comments here. (Or any variation of that. ) It just simply is not true. That is the exact piece of advice I received when I started in bronze. I began making probes (played protoss back then) non-stop. I would NEVER stop producing them. And look at that. I quickly went up to gold without any strategies or gameplans what so ever. I was just simply able to outproduce my opponent with my unit of choice (stalkers ftw) Only when I reached gold, I needed to start thinking of things like saturations and build orders :3 So yeah. Awesome Piece of advice Cecil. I hope I had seen something like this when I started :D Expand and make lots of stalkers IS a gameplan, though. And not a terrible one either. And from a similar experiment with mass marines, I had to fix my saturation issues quite early. A 20/40/20 mineral mining scv split on 3 bases is bad! And I had to force myself to cut scvs at 80 or so to allow for more army and raxes. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote: Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? From reading the blogs, he seems to lose to most of the silvers. He did beat a gold, but that turned out to someone on the way down to bronze. Certainly there's little excuse for people who regularly see worker rushes and who are somewhat serious about the game not knowing how to beat it. But there's also people who might lose simply because they've never seen it before. I've seen 1 worker rush in 300-400 games, and that guy quit because he scouted me last. | ||
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SeinGalton
South Africa387 Posts
I'm a low-level Diamond player. I play the game strictly for fun, but I find a lot of the fun lies in the learning of it. I've always been the strongest player amongst my friends and regarded as the "safe, mechanical player." However, my mechanics are the worst part of my play - specifically my macro. After deciding to learn a new hotkey setup to aid this, I'm coming back to threads like this one and the "Focused Approach to Perfecting Mechanics" to help me just get better at the fundamentals of the game. I found your VOD very convincing - no shenanigans, just straight macro and vs an unchecked zerg at that. Your post has helped me learn more about the game, the message simple and well presented. Thank you for posting, I'll be returning to this thread simply to reread the OP. | ||
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SgtCoDFish
United Kingdom1520 Posts
On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Worker combat? You mean beating a worker rush? It's so easy to beat a worker rush, I can literally type every action you have to do to beat one. 1) Select all your workers by dragging using the left click button on your mouse. 2) Right click on a mineral field near your CC/Nexus/Hatchery. There are 8 to choose from on most maps. Any will do. 3) Select your CC/Nex/Hatch using the left click button. 4) Create a worker. This involves one button press for Terran or Protoss (S or E respectively) and two button presses for zerg (S and then D) 5) Right click on one of the mineral patches to "rally" your CC/Nex/Hatch. 6) When you have 50 minerals, repeat step 4. 7) Repeat step 6 until you are at 9 supply for protoss and zerg or 10 supply for terran. 8) As terran or protoss, select a worker, press b, and then s or e respectively. Left click anywhere the icon is green in your main base. As zerg, select your hatchery and press S and then V. 9) You will see the worker rush around about now. Select all of your workers using the same left-click-drag you used in step 1. 10) Press a. 11) Left click on the ground and not an enemy unit, your CC/Nex/Hatch, your building supply depot or pylon, or any of your larvae or eggs. 12) You have now won the game, congratulations. Seriously, that's it. If you struggle with the above 12 actions and you are not physically or mentally impaired in some way (and there are players who've lost limbs for whatever reason who can achieve the above), you seriously don't know enough to talk about any topic relating to the game until you've improved. You don't even need all 12 of the above. If you manage to create 2 workers in the first minute of the game and press a and left click on the ground, you win. | ||
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