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On April 09 2012 19:04 Monkeyballs25 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote:On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold.
I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? From reading the blogs, he seems to lose to most of the silvers. He did beat a gold, but that turned out to someone on the way down to bronze. Certainly there's little excuse for people who regularly see worker rushes and who are somewhat serious about the game not knowing how to beat it. But there's also people who might lose simply because they've never seen it before. I've seen 1 worker rush in 300-400 games, and that guy quit because he scouted me last.
On November 07 2011 07:28 Gheed wrote:When I first began worker rushing and my MMR settled, I noticed I would play almost exclusively against bronze leaguers. Now, I'm facing a silver leaguer or above in about one of every four matches. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HQrWn.jpg)
Mostly silver, yes, but he's still facing a reasonable number of golds. The first thing you need to do to improve is realise how terrible you actually are, and if your ladder peers (at the same level as you) can be beaten by something as simple and stupid as a worker rush you have to accept you are just plain terrible at the game. Once you have accepted you are terrible, you are better able to look at areas you THOUGHT were good and find glaring mistakes, which lead to ways to improve!
I am a low EU Diamond player, and I used to look at protoss opponents (it is always protoss) who have literally half of my APM and didn't use hotkeys AT ALL, and I used to think they were terrible and that I was better than them.
Then I realised that, for me to be facing them on ladder, I was equally as terrible as them. My play may be better than them in some areas, but if I am facing them on ladder it means my MMR is ~= to theirs. And that means, even though I am using base cameras and hotkeys and have double their APM, that I have huge glaring holes elsewhere in my play.
[spoiler]Protoss are still nubs though[/quote]
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On April 09 2012 20:07 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote:On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold.
I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Worker combat? You mean beating a worker rush? It's so easy to beat a worker rush, I can literally type every action you have to do to beat one. 1) Select all your workers by dragging using the left click button on your mouse. 2) Right click on a mineral field near your CC/Nexus/Hatchery. There are 8 to choose from on most maps. Any will do. 3) Select your CC/Nex/Hatch using the left click button. 4) Create a worker. This involves one button press for Terran or Protoss (S or E respectively) and two button presses for zerg (S and then D) 5) Right click on one of the mineral patches to "rally" your CC/Nex/Hatch. 6) When you have 50 minerals, repeat step 4. 7) Repeat step 6 until you are at 9 supply for protoss and zerg or 10 supply for terran. 8) As terran or protoss, select a worker, press b, and then s or e respectively. Left click anywhere the icon is green in your main base. As zerg, select your hatchery and press S and then V. 9) You will see the worker rush around about now. Select all of your workers using the same left-click-drag you used in step 1. 10) Press a. 11) Left click on the ground and not an enemy unit, your CC/Nex/Hatch, your building supply depot or pylon, or any of your larvae or eggs. 12) You have now won the game, congratulations. Seriously, that's it. If you struggle with the above 12 actions and you are not physically or mentally impaired in some way (and there are players who've lost limbs for whatever reason who can achieve the above), you seriously don't know enough to talk about any topic relating to the game until you've improved. You don't even need all 12 of the above. If you manage to create 2 workers in the first minute of the game and press a and left click on the ground, you win.
Don't overcomplicate it. To beat a worker rush (of the type Gheed was doing) you simply need to:
1) Box your workers
2) A-move
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On April 09 2012 20:32 Hairy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2012 20:07 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote:On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold.
I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Worker combat? You mean beating a worker rush? It's so easy to beat a worker rush, I can literally type every action you have to do to beat one. 1) Select all your workers by dragging using the left click button on your mouse. 2) Right click on a mineral field near your CC/Nexus/Hatchery. There are 8 to choose from on most maps. Any will do. 3) Select your CC/Nex/Hatch using the left click button. 4) Create a worker. This involves one button press for Terran or Protoss (S or E respectively) and two button presses for zerg (S and then D) 5) Right click on one of the mineral patches to "rally" your CC/Nex/Hatch. 6) When you have 50 minerals, repeat step 4. 7) Repeat step 6 until you are at 9 supply for protoss and zerg or 10 supply for terran. 8) As terran or protoss, select a worker, press b, and then s or e respectively. Left click anywhere the icon is green in your main base. As zerg, select your hatchery and press S and then V. 9) You will see the worker rush around about now. Select all of your workers using the same left-click-drag you used in step 1. 10) Press a. 11) Left click on the ground and not an enemy unit, your CC/Nex/Hatch, your building supply depot or pylon, or any of your larvae or eggs. 12) You have now won the game, congratulations. Seriously, that's it. If you struggle with the above 12 actions and you are not physically or mentally impaired in some way (and there are players who've lost limbs for whatever reason who can achieve the above), you seriously don't know enough to talk about any topic relating to the game until you've improved. You don't even need all 12 of the above. If you manage to create 2 workers in the first minute of the game and press a and left click on the ground, you win. Don't overcomplicate it. To beat a worker rush (of the type Gheed was doing) you simply need to: 1) Box your workers 2) A-move
No, because if you do that you'll have equal harvesters to them and it'll come down to micro and positioning. To reliably beat a worker rush with an a-move as any race against any race, you need to have more than they do. You can have at least 2 more than them (and probs about 3/4 more with another on the way, I don't know the exact timings and what map) by the time a worker rush arrives, in which case a simple a-move will autowin against any micro.
I was being intentionally very verbose in my first post to drive home how simple this really is.
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On April 09 2012 21:16 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 20:32 Hairy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2012 20:07 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote:On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold.
I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Worker combat? You mean beating a worker rush? It's so easy to beat a worker rush, I can literally type every action you have to do to beat one. 1) Select all your workers by dragging using the left click button on your mouse. 2) Right click on a mineral field near your CC/Nexus/Hatchery. There are 8 to choose from on most maps. Any will do. 3) Select your CC/Nex/Hatch using the left click button. 4) Create a worker. This involves one button press for Terran or Protoss (S or E respectively) and two button presses for zerg (S and then D) 5) Right click on one of the mineral patches to "rally" your CC/Nex/Hatch. 6) When you have 50 minerals, repeat step 4. 7) Repeat step 6 until you are at 9 supply for protoss and zerg or 10 supply for terran. 8) As terran or protoss, select a worker, press b, and then s or e respectively. Left click anywhere the icon is green in your main base. As zerg, select your hatchery and press S and then V. 9) You will see the worker rush around about now. Select all of your workers using the same left-click-drag you used in step 1. 10) Press a. 11) Left click on the ground and not an enemy unit, your CC/Nex/Hatch, your building supply depot or pylon, or any of your larvae or eggs. 12) You have now won the game, congratulations. Seriously, that's it. If you struggle with the above 12 actions and you are not physically or mentally impaired in some way (and there are players who've lost limbs for whatever reason who can achieve the above), you seriously don't know enough to talk about any topic relating to the game until you've improved. You don't even need all 12 of the above. If you manage to create 2 workers in the first minute of the game and press a and left click on the ground, you win. Don't overcomplicate it. To beat a worker rush (of the type Gheed was doing) you simply need to: 1) Box your workers 2) A-move No, because if you do that you'll have equal harvesters to them and it'll come down to micro and positioning. To reliably beat a worker rush with an a-move as any race against any race, you need to have more than they do. You can have at least 2 more than them (and probs about 3/4 more with another on the way, I don't know the exact timings and what map) by the time a worker rush arrives, in which case a simple a-move will autowin against any micro. I was being intentionally very verbose in my first post to drive home how simple this really is.
On what map can you possibly have equal number of harvesters when a worker rush hits your base? They have 6 workers, you should have at the very least 8. You're supposed to box your workers and a-move when they reach your base, not when the game starts, which is quite obvious since you don't know it's a worker rush before that point anyway.
As stated, you're way overcomplicating something for no reason. Literally box workers and amove as soon as you see the worker rush, anything before or after is way overcomplicating.
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On April 09 2012 21:30 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:16 SgtCoDFish wrote:On April 09 2012 20:32 Hairy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2012 20:07 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote:On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold.
I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Worker combat? You mean beating a worker rush? It's so easy to beat a worker rush, I can literally type every action you have to do to beat one. 1) Select all your workers by dragging using the left click button on your mouse. 2) Right click on a mineral field near your CC/Nexus/Hatchery. There are 8 to choose from on most maps. Any will do. 3) Select your CC/Nex/Hatch using the left click button. 4) Create a worker. This involves one button press for Terran or Protoss (S or E respectively) and two button presses for zerg (S and then D) 5) Right click on one of the mineral patches to "rally" your CC/Nex/Hatch. 6) When you have 50 minerals, repeat step 4. 7) Repeat step 6 until you are at 9 supply for protoss and zerg or 10 supply for terran. 8) As terran or protoss, select a worker, press b, and then s or e respectively. Left click anywhere the icon is green in your main base. As zerg, select your hatchery and press S and then V. 9) You will see the worker rush around about now. Select all of your workers using the same left-click-drag you used in step 1. 10) Press a. 11) Left click on the ground and not an enemy unit, your CC/Nex/Hatch, your building supply depot or pylon, or any of your larvae or eggs. 12) You have now won the game, congratulations. Seriously, that's it. If you struggle with the above 12 actions and you are not physically or mentally impaired in some way (and there are players who've lost limbs for whatever reason who can achieve the above), you seriously don't know enough to talk about any topic relating to the game until you've improved. You don't even need all 12 of the above. If you manage to create 2 workers in the first minute of the game and press a and left click on the ground, you win. Don't overcomplicate it. To beat a worker rush (of the type Gheed was doing) you simply need to: 1) Box your workers 2) A-move No, because if you do that you'll have equal harvesters to them and it'll come down to micro and positioning. To reliably beat a worker rush with an a-move as any race against any race, you need to have more than they do. You can have at least 2 more than them (and probs about 3/4 more with another on the way, I don't know the exact timings and what map) by the time a worker rush arrives, in which case a simple a-move will autowin against any micro. I was being intentionally very verbose in my first post to drive home how simple this really is. On what map can you possibly have equal number of harvesters when a worker rush hits your base? They have 6 workers, you should have at the very least 8. You're supposed to box your workers and a-move when they reach your base, not when the game starts, which is quite obvious since you don't know it's a worker rush before that point anyway. As stated, you're way overcomplicating something for no reason. Literally box workers and amove as soon as you see the worker rush, anything before or after is way overcomplicating.
This is so offtopic, but:
As I said, I was being intentionally verbose to emphasize how simple this is to beat. Obviously you need to box and a-move. But it's technically incorrect to say that all you need to do to beat a worker rush is to box and a-move, because if they're the only actions you perform, you by default haven't created any more workers and you will have equal numbers of harvesters when they reach your base since neither of you have made any (they'll have a 7th coming shortly after their first 6 arrive)
Since I was going through every step in excruciating detail, I emphasized that you do indeed need to create workers to beat a worker rush reliably with an a-move. Boxing and a-moving with equal workers would lead to micro and positioning being important.
I don't know how I can make it any more clear that I was going through every step required to beat a worker rush.
The only possible "overcomplication" is the part I wrote about building supply depots/pylons/overlords, because you can obviously beat a worker rush if you continue producing up to the cap. I actually mentioned this in my first post though.
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A little anecdotal feedback. Taking the OP's point of valuing macro, I attempted to make it my main focus of late. I had a good night last night, and went 9-4 tonight. Even thought I had no specific plans on improving macro, simply having it in the back of my mind helped immensely. I'm looking more and more at the top right of the screen to keep track of my money and production and am hitting my injects better.
The games I win I have an equal or better Resource Collection Rate. The games I lose are usually due to specific Protoss timings, or ZvZ early game. At least at my level (high plat Zerg) simply having a little reminder of "macro" in the back of your head seems to help.
It's a little early to call success yet. It's the end of the season and I'm coming of a 2 week break. Both these could have contributed to my good win rate. I'm not sure I'll get promoted in Season 7, but we'll keep going and see how it goes. I feel like my APM is topping out though (around 60) so this may limit my improvement long term.
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Before I say anything, I want to make it clear that I absolutely agree with the premise and I'm not trying to fight the point that macro is the most important thing. I play with a LOT of bronze/silver league friends for fun sometimes. I'm going to point out some things I noticed in your first game that I don't think they "get" when they hear "probes & pylons". These are subtle things that I think you do subconsciously and are supremely obvious to you, that actually do have a discernible impact on the outcome of the game that they would NEVER do.
- Probe Stacking (ok fine, not a big deal)
- Scouting without forgetting absolutely everything in their base. They come back to 1000/250 when they micro a probe.
- Microing your probe without losing it and therefore being completely blind to the 25 lings that pop, or coming up with some random thing in their head like "OMG HE COULD BE SENDING 20 ROACHES, BETTER DROP 15 CANNONS".
- Knowing to look for a hatch against the zerg (seriously)
- Checking for gas and/or knowing what that might even mean. Many silver players don't know that zergling speed costs gas.
- Not taking 2-4 gas for absolutely no reason and just making pure zealots.
- Positioning your army/structures so run-bys aren't possible and doing this without losing any time.
- Pre-emptively breaking rocks to your third.
- Building a pylon near your third for vision and warp in ability (they rarely do this)
- Observer scouting without your macro going to shit.
- Not screen scrolling (this eats up a ton of their time).
- Built a cannon above the rocks at third.
- Built a warp prism and used waypoints at all, let alone ones that didn't fly directly over their base.
- Killed creep.
- Got appropriate upgrades at reasonable times (ok, macro I guess).
- Harassed the mineral line of main and the front at the same time and paid attention to both while simultaneously not letting your macro go to shit. This is laughable for a silver league player. This falls under "Probes & Pylons"?
- Forcefielded the ramp.
- Knew when to retreat a bit.
- Harassed the mineral line again while simultaneously strafing your army away from the ramp so that hydras couldn't shell you from range (seriously?) lol. They're more likely to move command up the ramp because "the army is up there, if I kill it, I win!".
- Didn't move command (this has ended so many games).
- Minimap awareness (not really relevant in this game). I've sat an entire army on someone's creep and they didn't even see it.
- Didn't build 45 cannons in your main because "fuck mutalisks, that's why".
The point I'm trying to make is that they blunder basically all of these. Their games generally don't get this far because they move their army out in front of their base, someone sends 75 lings into their third because they didn't realize they broke down the rocks, they lose that. By the time they realize this is even happening at all, they move command (not A-move) their army back to their natural. Lings run into the mineral line and kill half the shit there. And the entire gameplan (or lack thereof) goes to crap.
One of the oft-misunderstood things about silver league players (don't know why I'm harping on silver league so much) is that one ounce of pressure and absolutely everything goes to crap. You ever play WoW? There was always the ever so slightly older person in the guild that just played for fun and didn't want to hit her fireball key all the time because arcane missiles was cooler looking. That's bronze. Silver is just above that. Gold is where maybe 1/3rd of that list is now attainable.
Imagine the zerg player had gone for muta. And he flew them around and went to your main mineral line. Then when you moved your army up, he flew them down to your natural. Then when you moved your entire army there, he flew back to your main. I have yet to encounter a silver league player that can handle this. Make all the probes/pylons you want. They NEVER split up their army.
Again, I'm not trying to argue the probes & pylons point. I'm just saying that some of the uber-low league players have such unbelievably glaring flaws that sometimes people don't even consider. It wouldn't matter if macro happened automatically and perfectly. You would still destroy them.
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On April 09 2012 23:26 South wrote:
Before I say anything, I want to make it clear that I absolutely agree with the premise and I'm not trying to fight the point that macro is the most important thing. I play with a LOT of bronze/silver league friends for fun sometimes. I'm going to point out some things I noticed in your first game that I don't think they "get" when they hear "probes & pylons". These are subtle things that I think you do subconsciously and are supremely obvious to you, that actually do have a discernible impact on the outcome of the game that they would NEVER do.
- Probe Stacking (ok fine, not a big deal)
- Scouting without forgetting absolutely everything in their base. They come back to 1000/250 when they micro a probe.
- Microing your probe without losing it and therefore being completely blind to the 25 lings that pop, or coming up with some random thing in their head like "OMG HE COULD BE SENDING 20 ROACHES, BETTER DROP 15 CANNONS".
- Knowing to look for a hatch against the zerg (seriously)
- Checking for gas and/or knowing what that might even mean. Many silver players don't know that zergling speed costs gas.
- Not taking 2-4 gas for absolutely no reason and just making pure zealots.
- Positioning your army/structures so run-bys aren't possible and doing this without losing any time.
- Pre-emptively breaking rocks to your third.
- Building a pylon near your third for vision and warp in ability (they rarely do this)
- Observer scouting without your macro going to shit.
- Not screen scrolling (this eats up a ton of their time).
- Built a cannon above the rocks at third.
- Built a warp prism and used waypoints at all, let alone ones that didn't fly directly over their base.
- Killed creep.
- Got appropriate upgrades at reasonable times (ok, macro I guess).
- Harassed the mineral line of main and the front at the same time and paid attention to both while simultaneously not letting your macro go to shit. This is laughable for a silver league player. This falls under "Probes & Pylons"?
- Forcefielded the ramp.
- Knew when to retreat a bit.
- Harassed the mineral line again while simultaneously strafing your army away from the ramp so that hydras couldn't shell you from range (seriously?) lol. They're more likely to move command up the ramp because "the army is up there, if I kill it, I win!".
- Didn't move command (this has ended so many games).
- Minimap awareness (not really relevant in this game). I've sat an entire army on someone's creep and they didn't even see it.
- Didn't build 45 cannons in your main because "fuck mutalisks, that's why".
The point I'm trying to make is that they blunder basically all of these. Their games generally don't get this far because they move their army out in front of their base, someone sends 75 lings into their third because they didn't realize they broke down the rocks, they lose that. By the time they realize this is even happening at all, they move command (not A-move) their army back to their natural. Lings run into the mineral line and kill half the shit there. And the entire gameplan (or lack thereof) goes to crap.
One of the oft-misunderstood things about silver league players (don't know why I'm harping on silver league so much) is that one ounce of pressure and absolutely everything goes to crap. You ever play WoW? There was always the ever so slightly older person in the guild that just played for fun and didn't want to hit her fireball key all the time because arcane missiles was cooler looking. That's bronze. Silver is just above that. Gold is where maybe 1/3rd of that list is now attainable.
Imagine the zerg player had gone for muta. And he flew them around and went to your main mineral line. Then when you moved your army up, he flew them down to your natural. Then when you moved your entire army there, he flew back to your main. I have yet to encounter a silver league player that can handle this. Make all the probes/pylons you want. They NEVER split up their army.
Again, I'm not trying to argue the probes & pylons point. I'm just saying that some of the uber-low league players have such unbelievably glaring flaws that sometimes people don't even consider. It wouldn't matter if macro happened automatically and perfectly. You would still destroy them.
Don't confuse old, with lazy /casual. Age is only relevant to declining ability, not desire.
I praticed as much as possible last week, and finally got around to redoing my 5 placement matches. I went 4-1 and placed platinum. Had a good practice partner ( thanks Orange). He was a Zergie, so I switched to Toss 
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On April 09 2012 22:26 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:30 Tobberoth wrote:On April 09 2012 21:16 SgtCoDFish wrote:On April 09 2012 20:32 Hairy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2012 20:07 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote:On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold.
I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Worker combat? You mean beating a worker rush? It's so easy to beat a worker rush, I can literally type every action you have to do to beat one. 1) Select all your workers by dragging using the left click button on your mouse. 2) Right click on a mineral field near your CC/Nexus/Hatchery. There are 8 to choose from on most maps. Any will do. 3) Select your CC/Nex/Hatch using the left click button. 4) Create a worker. This involves one button press for Terran or Protoss (S or E respectively) and two button presses for zerg (S and then D) 5) Right click on one of the mineral patches to "rally" your CC/Nex/Hatch. 6) When you have 50 minerals, repeat step 4. 7) Repeat step 6 until you are at 9 supply for protoss and zerg or 10 supply for terran. 8) As terran or protoss, select a worker, press b, and then s or e respectively. Left click anywhere the icon is green in your main base. As zerg, select your hatchery and press S and then V. 9) You will see the worker rush around about now. Select all of your workers using the same left-click-drag you used in step 1. 10) Press a. 11) Left click on the ground and not an enemy unit, your CC/Nex/Hatch, your building supply depot or pylon, or any of your larvae or eggs. 12) You have now won the game, congratulations. Seriously, that's it. If you struggle with the above 12 actions and you are not physically or mentally impaired in some way (and there are players who've lost limbs for whatever reason who can achieve the above), you seriously don't know enough to talk about any topic relating to the game until you've improved. You don't even need all 12 of the above. If you manage to create 2 workers in the first minute of the game and press a and left click on the ground, you win. Don't overcomplicate it. To beat a worker rush (of the type Gheed was doing) you simply need to: 1) Box your workers 2) A-move No, because if you do that you'll have equal harvesters to them and it'll come down to micro and positioning. To reliably beat a worker rush with an a-move as any race against any race, you need to have more than they do. You can have at least 2 more than them (and probs about 3/4 more with another on the way, I don't know the exact timings and what map) by the time a worker rush arrives, in which case a simple a-move will autowin against any micro. I was being intentionally very verbose in my first post to drive home how simple this really is. On what map can you possibly have equal number of harvesters when a worker rush hits your base? They have 6 workers, you should have at the very least 8. You're supposed to box your workers and a-move when they reach your base, not when the game starts, which is quite obvious since you don't know it's a worker rush before that point anyway. As stated, you're way overcomplicating something for no reason. Literally box workers and amove as soon as you see the worker rush, anything before or after is way overcomplicating. This is so offtopic, but: As I said, I was being intentionally verbose to emphasize how simple this is to beat. Obviously you need to box and a-move. But it's technically incorrect to say that all you need to do to beat a worker rush is to box and a-move, because if they're the only actions you perform, you by default haven't created any more workers and you will have equal numbers of harvesters when they reach your base since neither of you have made any (they'll have a 7th coming shortly after their first 6 arrive) Since I was going through every step in excruciating detail, I emphasized that you do indeed need to create workers to beat a worker rush reliably with an a-move. Boxing and a-moving with equal workers would lead to micro and positioning being important. I don't know how I can make it any more clear that I was going through every step required to beat a worker rush. The only possible "overcomplication" is the part I wrote about building supply depots/pylons/overlords, because you can obviously beat a worker rush if you continue producing up to the cap. I actually mentioned this in my first post though.
How is it not overcomplicating something to give excruciating detail in everything, and what's the point of doing it? What a player losing to worker rushes need to hear isn't "First, plug in your mouse..", it's "box and a-move". I don't think they want to read a whole book on a subject so simple.
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On April 10 2012 00:09 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:26 SgtCoDFish wrote:On April 09 2012 21:30 Tobberoth wrote:On April 09 2012 21:16 SgtCoDFish wrote:On April 09 2012 20:32 Hairy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2012 20:07 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote:On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold.
I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Worker combat? You mean beating a worker rush? It's so easy to beat a worker rush, I can literally type every action you have to do to beat one. 1) Select all your workers by dragging using the left click button on your mouse. 2) Right click on a mineral field near your CC/Nexus/Hatchery. There are 8 to choose from on most maps. Any will do. 3) Select your CC/Nex/Hatch using the left click button. 4) Create a worker. This involves one button press for Terran or Protoss (S or E respectively) and two button presses for zerg (S and then D) 5) Right click on one of the mineral patches to "rally" your CC/Nex/Hatch. 6) When you have 50 minerals, repeat step 4. 7) Repeat step 6 until you are at 9 supply for protoss and zerg or 10 supply for terran. 8) As terran or protoss, select a worker, press b, and then s or e respectively. Left click anywhere the icon is green in your main base. As zerg, select your hatchery and press S and then V. 9) You will see the worker rush around about now. Select all of your workers using the same left-click-drag you used in step 1. 10) Press a. 11) Left click on the ground and not an enemy unit, your CC/Nex/Hatch, your building supply depot or pylon, or any of your larvae or eggs. 12) You have now won the game, congratulations. Seriously, that's it. If you struggle with the above 12 actions and you are not physically or mentally impaired in some way (and there are players who've lost limbs for whatever reason who can achieve the above), you seriously don't know enough to talk about any topic relating to the game until you've improved. You don't even need all 12 of the above. If you manage to create 2 workers in the first minute of the game and press a and left click on the ground, you win. Don't overcomplicate it. To beat a worker rush (of the type Gheed was doing) you simply need to: 1) Box your workers 2) A-move No, because if you do that you'll have equal harvesters to them and it'll come down to micro and positioning. To reliably beat a worker rush with an a-move as any race against any race, you need to have more than they do. You can have at least 2 more than them (and probs about 3/4 more with another on the way, I don't know the exact timings and what map) by the time a worker rush arrives, in which case a simple a-move will autowin against any micro. I was being intentionally very verbose in my first post to drive home how simple this really is. On what map can you possibly have equal number of harvesters when a worker rush hits your base? They have 6 workers, you should have at the very least 8. You're supposed to box your workers and a-move when they reach your base, not when the game starts, which is quite obvious since you don't know it's a worker rush before that point anyway. As stated, you're way overcomplicating something for no reason. Literally box workers and amove as soon as you see the worker rush, anything before or after is way overcomplicating. This is so offtopic, but: As I said, I was being intentionally verbose to emphasize how simple this is to beat. Obviously you need to box and a-move. But it's technically incorrect to say that all you need to do to beat a worker rush is to box and a-move, because if they're the only actions you perform, you by default haven't created any more workers and you will have equal numbers of harvesters when they reach your base since neither of you have made any (they'll have a 7th coming shortly after their first 6 arrive) Since I was going through every step in excruciating detail, I emphasized that you do indeed need to create workers to beat a worker rush reliably with an a-move. Boxing and a-moving with equal workers would lead to micro and positioning being important. I don't know how I can make it any more clear that I was going through every step required to beat a worker rush. The only possible "overcomplication" is the part I wrote about building supply depots/pylons/overlords, because you can obviously beat a worker rush if you continue producing up to the cap. I actually mentioned this in my first post though. How is it not overcomplicating something to give excruciating detail in everything, and what's the point of doing it? What a player losing to worker rushes need to hear isn't "First, plug in your mouse..", it's "box and a-move". I don't think they want to read a whole book on a subject so simple.
You're overly simplifying it.
He's overly complicating it.
Back on track please...
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On April 09 2012 17:17 Ahelvin wrote:
Long story short, responses to your topic are a trove of potential illustrations for this phenomenon, and anyone not believing in this theory should have a look at people like PinheadXXXX. It's absolutely compelling !
I believe in this theory, btw. When did I ever say I didn't? Macro is the most important thing in the game, and I have never said otherwise.
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On April 09 2012 20:07 SgtCoDFish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 08:54 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On April 09 2012 08:52 Hairy wrote:On April 09 2012 08:33 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
You have a very low opinion of bronze to gold league. Most people in top Bronze, Silver, and Gold know their hotkeys, and actually do know how to play. They do actually know some or most counters. You refer to to Gheed's worker rushing in Bronze, but still, you fail to comprehend the enormous skill gap between the bottom and the top of bronze, and even the bottom of bronze and the top of gold.
I am not saying that bronze-gold league can macro well. All i am saying is that you are vastly underselling that skill set, and you really do not have an idea of what things are like there. I'm not taking what you said as an insult, it is just atrociously incorrect. Not to detract from your argument, but didn't Gheed actually get up to facing the occasional gold player when doing his worker rushing...? Yeah, but lots of players, including me, are horrendous at worker combat, but much better at other stuff. Worker combat is not that easy for a lot of people. Worker combat? You mean beating a worker rush? It's so easy to beat a worker rush, I can literally type every action you have to do to beat one. 1) Select all your workers by dragging using the left click button on your mouse. 2) Right click on a mineral field near your CC/Nexus/Hatchery. There are 8 to choose from on most maps. Any will do. 3) Select your CC/Nex/Hatch using the left click button. 4) Create a worker. This involves one button press for Terran or Protoss (S or E respectively) and two button presses for zerg (S and then D) 5) Right click on one of the mineral patches to "rally" your CC/Nex/Hatch. 6) When you have 50 minerals, repeat step 4. 7) Repeat step 6 until you are at 9 supply for protoss and zerg or 10 supply for terran. 8) As terran or protoss, select a worker, press b, and then s or e respectively. Left click anywhere the icon is green in your main base. As zerg, select your hatchery and press S and then V. 9) You will see the worker rush around about now. Select all of your workers using the same left-click-drag you used in step 1. 10) Press a. 11) Left click on the ground and not an enemy unit, your CC/Nex/Hatch, your building supply depot or pylon, or any of your larvae or eggs. 12) You have now won the game, congratulations. Seriously, that's it. If you struggle with the above 12 actions and you are not physically or mentally impaired in some way (and there are players who've lost limbs for whatever reason who can achieve the above), you seriously don't know enough to talk about any topic relating to the game until you've improved. You don't even need all 12 of the above. If you manage to create 2 workers in the first minute of the game and press a and left click on the ground, you win.
Well, thank you. Couldn't some of you people have considered that maybe i thought YOU HAD TO MICRO YOUR WORKERS! Obviously, I was wrong, but for those people saying that I am a troll, or stupid, or mentally impaired, it could just be because I actually didn't know how to deal with a worker rush! You have to remember that people, including me, go/went into this game knowing completely nothing. All other "obvious" things are very easy to find, but that you can simply 1a your way to victory in a worker rush? I have actually never seen this before, because people simply insist that you must be mentally impaired or whatever, and refuse to tell how to do it. I say this also because it's not like it's a very common thing to turn up, and a lot of people actually think that you need to micro your workers in a scenario like this. You'd be surprised, and its partly because if anyone asks, all you high league players just talk about how stupid this person is, etc.
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On April 09 2012 17:39 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Long story short, responses to your topic are a trove of potential illustrations for this phenomenon, and anyone not believing in this theory should have a look at people like PinheadXXXX. It's absolutely compelling ! haha. I feel like that comment should be framed in TL hall of fame or something. "Im not good at worker combat but good at other things". Just the biggest fail I think I've ever seen. Ever. And he still hasn't submitted a replay of his supposed play where he doesn't make any glaring macro issues in the first 10 minutes. Charon submitted a replay showing how a gold could macro perfectly in first 10 minutes if playing by themselves, and his macro was horrible. He just wasn't aware of it, and he just ended up proving my point.
I didn't ever say my macro was good, I just said I know my hotkeys and my unit counters. In reality, my macro is horrendous, (and yes, I do think it is the most important part of the game), but I still train all units through hotkeys, queue commands, and know generally what units to build in which situation. I also never said I was good at other things, I just actually can play, although fairly horribly. In Gheed's blog, he tried to lose without worker rushing, and faced awful players. I am better than any of those players. And yes, although this would be somewhat difficult to prove through a replay, I can submit one that shows this. Not that my macro is good or anything like that, just that I have some basic knowledge of the game.
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I would argue you are vastly overselling. There is an even larger skill gap between diamond and lower masters, yet low masters doesn't macro well at all. And bottom of bronze are like 10 year olds, handicapped people, and portrait farming or bots.
Yeah, the bottom of bronze sucks. But how am I overselling by saying that 50% of the people who play starcraft actually know something about it? I'm not saying bronze-gold is actually good, you just said that 50% of the starcraft 2 population actually doesn't know how to play. I am in bronze, and I actually know my basic unit counters and all my hotkeys. That is way, way better than your opinion of gold league, even. And no, I am not wrong, because knowing counters and hotkeys is a very tangible thing.
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One interesting thing I discovered with regards to the "mass stalker to Diamond" guy.
His macro wasn't even that good! http://drop.sc/156912
I reviewed some of his replays, he'd generally have 19-22 stalkers and 54-58 probes by the 12 minute mark.
I did a practice session vs Normal AI to prepare me for the switch to a mass stalker strat in season 7.
It went so horribly bad that I had ended up depowering my 1st gateway and cybercore because I accidentally walled myself in and broke the Artosis pylon to get out.
I had 23 stalkers and 55 probes by the 12 minute mark. http://drop.sc/156911
I haven't played more than half a dozen customs vs AI as Protoss, and 2 practice sessions vs a friend.
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@ worker rush:
there are many many many ppl in bronze and silver who dont know how to a-move. I can remember various threads in official forums where ppl asking how to defend a worker rush "because his workers wont attack and he has to select and right-klick every single worker".
Add to this that people reading/posting in forums are a very small amount. Most player dont even know the forums exist or just dont care.
In the past in all RTS i just played the story mode (I think Dune was the first I ever played) and until SC2 Ladder around silver I knew nothing at all about a-move.
I just movecommanded everyting close by and waited for the auto aggression to happen. Not to hard to imagine taht there are loads of "victims" out there who lose to workerrushes even when its 10 to 6
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I am sorry, But as a mid-high masters league player myself I disagree on a slight point. I believe the fundamental basis of starcraft should be MECHANICS and not macro. Of course economy management comes next, I believe lower league players need to learn the fundamentals of mechanics before concentrating on macro. Building probes and pylons is great but did you use your screen hotkey to go build a pylon, was your pylon late because you were inefficiently sending a stalker to a watchtower from your main army without utilizing cloning (shift deselecting)?
Honestly, the hardcore brood war crowd fails to grasp that these lower league players are stuck struggling cause they waste so much time doing incredibly inefficient actions because they fail to realize how ctrl and shift function with the hotkeys completely, as well as minimap and UI utilization. Instead the hardcore elite BW crowd just tells them they need better econ management ect, assuming the mechanical RTS interface things are obvious(guess what, they're not). Just frustrates me, the misinformation and myths lower league players develop because of things like these.
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Kind of in line with the above poster I think this is a huge oversimplification: probes and pylons aren't going to stop a 1-1-1 or a fe roach rush. You combine your years of SC2 experience with a macro oriented guide, that's nice and I imagine you get a few more clients but your knowledge of build orders and micro is clearly showcased in your examples (I think your 1 gate expand agaisnt the first zerg is cheeky, what if he decides to bust you and your warp prism harass is neither a probe nor a pylon so what are you showcasing?) Really you are saying concentrate on macro and pick up all the things i already know. Well, clap-clap.
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to OP:
I think you are absolutely right. I myself am proof of this to a certain extent. At the beginning of playing SC2 I was all like you said above... How do I counter if I see my opponent go one-base carrier? Do I have the right amount of Marauders to deal with the roach push? etc etc etc, continue infinitely.
After I got the general impression that I should focus on macro, I started doing one, repeat, ONE build in all match-ups. I always always always go 1 Rax FE into pure Bio play into MMM(G)(V), rarely do I build tanks. Now while this obviously brought me some losses, I have until now advanced the following:
Season 3: Bronze
Season 4: Gold
Season 5: Gold
Season 6: Plat.
I am currently something like 30th in my division, and that is with I think around only 30 wins this season. I play a mere 2-3 games every 2-3 days, and still I feel like I am improving further and further. Basically all I do is watch my workers, supply, money/gas. I don't even build tanks when I see lots of banelings, and sometimes I still can win the game just because of superior production.
So there you have your prime example. Macro is still the key. Of course you will lose to direct counters to your composition, but everything else? You just crush with superior macro.
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On April 10 2012 04:29 ChaZzza wrote:
Kind of in line with the above poster I think this is a huge oversimplification: probes and pylons aren't going to stop a 1-1-1 or a fe roach rush. You combine your years of SC2 experience with a macro oriented guide, that's nice and I imagine you get a few more clients but your knowledge of build orders and micro is clearly showcased in your examples (I think your 1 gate expand agaisnt the first zerg is cheeky, what if he decides to bust you and your warp prism harass is neither a probe nor a pylon so what are you showcasing?) Really you are saying concentrate on macro and pick up all the things i already know. Well, clap-clap.
Luckily I said that probes and pylons alone won't win you games. In like the second sentence. I didn't create this thread to get more students, I actually have gotten zero more students and that's likely how it will stay, because I'm not advertising coaching.
I'm glad you already know these things. Now you just have to do them.
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EPT
