I am a bronze Protoss and am trying to pick up the fundamentals of the game. So far I can usually get through the early game - very sloppily, yes - without making a huge screwup. For example, let's say I'm going for a 2-gate expo.
9 Pylon 13 Gateway, send scout 14 Assimilator 15 Pylon 18 Cybernetics Core Zealot Warpgate Research as Cybernetics Core finishes, with 4 Chrono Boosts Stalker 22 Pylon Sentry 26 Assimilator 27 Gateway Sentry 31 Pylon (low ground by expansion) 34 Nexus 35 Forge Warp in 2 Sentries after Forge When forge completes, warp in 2 Cannons defending natural expansion At 100 gas, research Hallucinate Use the next 100 gas to research +1 attack @100 gas Twilight Council Build Assimilator at the natural expansion Warp in Stalkers as money allows
In the beginning I focus on two things, as Day9 says: probes and pylons. This I can do because I don't have to think about anything else: I have a build order that I can follow religiously, and only one expansion to look after. I can concentrate on my basic macro (yes, my macro has flaws but they can be eased out through practice).
But when the midgame rolls around after I take the expo, I just have a meltdown. The build order doesn't tell me what to do so I have to spend a lot more brain power an my build. Macro collapses: I get supply blocked every single pylon, forget to build workers, forget to scout with observer. I am reduced to a blubbering idiot, incapable of even the simplest actions.
What I need is a solid, specific build order. I want a build order to gets to 40 supply like the above one, and then splits off into a "tree" based on what I scout. I want to know how many gateways I should build, and when. I need to know when to start Colossus, when to start upgrades (this build does that, but not many other builds), when to take my third gas, when to take my third expo. Where can I find such a build order?
In this replay, which is one of my worse games, exactly that happened. My opening was okay but I screwed up later, missing pylons, forgetting to build probes, having thousands of minerals towards the end, and screwing up my rally points so bad that I had 10 probes somehow trapped in my simcity without me even noticing it happened. The final battle was horrendous; the front half of my army attacked while the back half idled around for a few seconds. The marine/tank effortlessly rolled me over
EDIT: Many Liquipedia builds DO have several paragraphs telling me what to do after I scout the opponent, but these don't work for me because they aren't specific. Many of you guys being master leaguers can easily follow these sorts of instructions because macro is natural for you and you don't have to think about it. For me, it is very hard dealing with probes, pylons, warp-ins, expoing, and teching to spare any brain time to do anything beyond read a specific build order.
EDIT It would be appreciated if you could suggest some 2-base timing push builds, as they help me perfect my early-game and mechanics.
I would suggest reading the guides that KCDC and Alej make. They are very well written and usually provide beginning to late game information, build order based on timings, and scouting information. A few are:
It just sounds like you need practice. You can play up to diamond level without build orders beyond 15 supply. I remember having lots of brainmelt multitasking when I was in silver, but it just straightened out without much conscious effort. Just play more games, thinking is for higher levels.
Sir, i can respectfully say that you are in bronze. What does this mean? It means no pressure, no need to win every game, you aren't a pro, far from it. Your goal is to have the most fun you can, and get better at a semi-linear rate. I understand the need for the specific BO, that you latch onto like its a warm snuggly security blanket. You're Macro isn't what lost you that game, what lost you that game is half of your army attacking his army as he is sieged and then the other half just walking into it. As a toss, you need to know how to hold a ramp, especially on entombed valley. So how do we make sure have the right followup to our buildorder, how do we remember not to lose half our army? We learn from our mistakes, we play, we lose, we lose, we lose, and we learn, and at the end of it, we come out a better player. Think of Bronze as a proving ground, a place where you get smacked around like a lil rag doll until you learn to grow a spine and win. You have the right idea, just play more, learn all the followups and figure out which one you like best, true play shouldn't be based off of BO, it should be based off internal timing, decision making, and even at times improvisation, not some words and numbers jumbled onto a sticky note you stuck to your monitor. Best of luck chap.
EDIT: No offense man, but maybe the problem is less your macro or micro but the fact that you have 9 count em 9 probes stuck in your main....
StarCraft II is a game of reacting to your opponent. You can very seldom follow a set build order beyond 50 or so supply because by then it is likely that you will have lost units, scout different tech paths that your opponent is taking, etc.
One piece of advice that I can give you that my friend said was the best thing he learned from me would be this. Whenever your warpgates are off cooldown, make units then look at your supply. If you have less than 10 free supply, build a pylon. This way, you will almost never get supply blocked. Also, you want to develop a cycle that you can go through repeatedly. For example, you might do the following: Build Probes, warp in units, check robo/stargate for unit, build pylons. Once you go through that cycle, start back at the beginning and continue doing that until you are ready to make an attack.
The build order that you listed is way too complicated, no wonder you get lost in the mid-game. Think about what you are trying to accomplish with your practice. If you were trying to perfect a timing, then religiously following a BO makes sense. However, if you are just trying to practice macro, just freaking make units.
Think very simply about this game. At the Bronze level, you just need to make more THINGS than your opponent. I'm a Master level Zerg, but when I play a 3v3, or 4v4, I end up just massing 1 or 2 kinds of units because otherwise, it becomes too hard to keep track of everything and still macro. This is what you need to do too. To work on your macro, don't worry about a complicated build order. Just go 2-3 gates + 1 robo every game and just make a shit ton of units. When you see your base getting saturated with probes, then expand. This might seems so stupid but it is absolutely the way to get better. Go to a mid-game and only make Gateway units. Forget about teching. Once you get this down and are macroing smoothly off two base, then you can practice build orders, add in upgrades, or tech to Tier 3.
Watched the replay, have a couple really general points for you about that game:
- Scout! I know you spotted his position early in the game, but keep your probe there and see what he's up to. I suspect he could have won really early if he'd built a third barracks and just rallied marines into you right off the start of the game.
- Hotkey! your production structures. I saw your Nexuses on Zero there for a while, but I feel like you picked something right out of the way, and as such seldom chronoboosted. I like your idea to get Colossi as they're what I call 'pretty good', but you could have had many more if you'd stayed on your Robotics facility to keep building them.
You shouldn't get too focussed on a specific build order. I've seen quite a few players in the lower leagues stick to a single BO religiously and fall apart once they're at the end of their "todo list" or if early game action messes up the build. The main thing to go for in the lower leagues is to learn your general macro cycle: building Probes, Pylons, production buildings and units. A build-order that takes you past 20-25 supply will be too specific for a general gameplan.
A good thing to practice is to start a game against the AI, focus on building Probes and Pylons and then keeping your money low. Expand every 5 minutes, add Gateways when needed and try to reach 200 supply as soon as you can (just with Gateways/Warpgates is fine). This should give you a good rythm of making Probes, checking WG cooldown, adding Pylons, etc...
In actual ladder games you can apply a similar technique with a great level of success in Bronze. It'll allow you to have a ton more "stuff" than your opponent and unless he's doing some cheese (usually with cloaked stuff), you'll probably win.
Things like upgrade and transition timings aren't very relevant yet and you will learn them as you experience enemy builds. Upgrades are something that you can do when your macro slips up a bit to dump excess resources in (after cursing to yourself mentally for letting the macro slip).
tldr: Don't focus on specific BOs, focus on general macro mechanics, learn a rythm that allows you to build a lot of stuff.
You macro is good for bronze standards up to 10 mins.
I would say what lost you the game was 50% your bad final engagement and 50% not spending your money.
As for the bad engagement all I can say is be more aware of such stuff next time and that will only come with more games played.
As for spending your money, you were on way too little production structures for too long. Too much money? Build more gateways! And your robo was painfully idle for really long periods of time. Keep producing out of your unit production structures. A good rule of a thumb is 3 unit production structures per base. Keep upgrading/chrono boosting your forges as well.
I dont think 2 bases allins is what you need to solve your problem...just play long macro games, rather try to go for warpprisms, and micro intensive units likes storm, blink stalk, to stretch your multitask, and get to increase your apm...cheesing is not a solution lol
E: on the builds, just learn basic builds, most pros dont even know bos part 30 supply (esp zergs) . Just learn like 1,2,3 gate expand, and after you should react, you dont need to learn bo's up to 100 supply, because there might be times when you need like 5 sentrys for roachbust defence, oh what if he is going muta, (need to get more blink stalker+ cannons) so BO becomes useless...
You need an observer, and micro vs the marine ball with the colossus. I think those 9 or so probes that were just chilling needed to be adhered to as well More colossus wouldn't have gone amiss either
I'm just going to spew out what you did wrong in the game in order from what I saw:
You ask you're opponent what race he is. This is a bit pointless if he's random, since he will probably say that he's a different race than he is, or nothing at all. In the rare case that he does say what race he is, you won't know for sure, so it's just plain better to go for a 9-scout.
Your opening build looks wonky. You go 3gate-robo without doing any pressure, and expand at around 7:40. This is controversial at best IMO, and I think you'd be better off learning something like a 1gate FE into colossus timing, though you can pick whatever you want.
You have eight [8] buildings supported by a single pylon. *cough* artosis *cough*.
Your macro is bad as you state in the OP, I personally got around this in Bronze by just building a bunch of production/expansions>production whenever I had spare $$$, and eventually noticing when I needed it and building it. Build orders don't really matter until diamond, though they help a little, I think that you can just wing it for the most part and be fine if you just make pylons, gateways, probes, and units.
Oh yeah, I also recommend going for the 'ez' to use units, like Colossus, Archon, Zealot rather than Sentries, HT's, and DT's.
Last, always GG. It doesn't do you any good to just leave. I can't really explain it for some reason, >.< but it does you far more good than 'ragequitting' will ever do.
I'll also strongly advice going for the macro games, as they will teach you most.
You identify your problem and say that when the BO ends, you are clueless , and then you say that to solve this, you need longer BO. Wrong! You need to start thinking in your game and making your own decisions. Otherwise, when this longer BO ends, you'll be in the same spot as you are now.
Off top - @Fencer710. Does saying GG after every game do you any good ? I don't see how. If he doesn't feel like typing anything, it's his business.
On March 19 2012 21:34 blocur wrote: I'll also strongly advice going for the macro games, as they will teach you most.
You identify your problem and say that when the BO ends, you are clueless , and then you say that to solve this, you need longer BO. Wrong! You need to start thinking in your game and making your own decisions. Otherwise, when this longer BO ends, you'll be in the same spot as you are now.
Off top - @Fencer710. Does saying GG after every game do you any good ? I don't see how. If he doesn't feel like typing anything, it's his business.
It's polite for one thing, I can't really explain past that. I'll just make myself look like an idiot. :\
He explain pretty much everything you need to know about Protoss up until at the very least platinum. Simple BOs against each race which focus on standard and solid macro play.
The reason higher level players can follow 'vague' advice beyond the first few minutes of a game is not because they can somehow think about more things than you can. It's because they've committed the act of building pylons, building probes, and warping in units to muscle memory and pure instincts. They literally don't have to think about it. If you seriously want to get into more complex strategies at a higher level, you have to gain some level of this instinctive play.
My suggestion is to warp in random units as often as possible after following your opening build order. If you have minerals left over after a round of warp ins, build 2-3 more gateways. Worry about only 3 things: Probes, pylons, Warp in units. Max out as fast as you can on probes and gateway units. Drill this into every game until you can do it without thinking. Then start adding in more things to do one at a time. Like teching to colossus or constantly upgrading units. Start basic and slowly add more things do. Once one thing becomes easy or instinctive add another thing to do.
And when I say worry about these 3 things, I mean seriously do not worry about anything else. If you are getting attacked by banshees, make probes, make pylons, warp shit in... then go deal with the banshees. Does it sound stupid. Totally. But I can guarantee that in bronze league if you only worry about those 3 things, banshees could destroy your nexus and you wouldn't even be behind. And you'll be working on the fundamentals you need to execute higher level strategies.
The problem is that you can't get very specific after the expo, because what you do after the expo depends on what the enemy makes. But I'll try to be as specific as possible
Vs Zerg: Make 1 extra gateway. Then make 1 Robotics Facility. Then make 2 more gateways. Then 1 Robotics Bay. Now constantly make stalkers from the 5 gateways and colossus from the Robotics Facility. Make sure to get one Observer before you start making colossus though. When you get any extra minerals and vespene, make a Twilight Council and get Blink. Also get a Forge and upgrades with extra minerals/vesp.
Vs Terran: Same start vs with Zerg. Make 5 gates and 1 robo. But instead of making 5 stalkers, make 3 zealots 1 sentry 1 stalker. Instead of getting Blink, get Charge. At about ~100 supply, make a Templar Archives and research Storm, and replace the 1 sentry for 1 High Templar.
Vs Protoss: Same as Vs. Zerg
As for a 2-Base attack, they won't help you with your macro much, but here's one: FFE into 7-Gate Vs Zerg. 9 Pylon 15 Forge 17 Nexus 17 Cannon 19 Gateway 21 Assimilator x2 27 Cybernetics Core 31 Assimilator 41 Level 1 Weapons 48 Robotics Facility 56 Gateway x6
Just play for fun and do something that makes sense to u (4 gates for instance ...) I got to gold (after 56 weeks without playing!) simply building proxy pylon + gate inside their base .... (and oh boy did i get bm'ed ...)
A really good habit that helped my macro tremendously was to just keep macroing as perfectly as u can for 5-10 minutes after you beat you're opponent.. that way you can "figure out" your build order and execute it in a zero pressure scenario and get used to playing mid-late game without your macro falling apart completely.
After doing that for a while, late game macro even off 3-4 bases is no longer too challenging... I'm diamond btw.
On March 19 2012 10:47 lordsurya08 wrote: But when the midgame rolls around after I take the expo, I just have a meltdown. The build order doesn't tell me what to do so I have to spend a lot more brain power an my build. Macro collapses: I get supply blocked every single pylon, forget to build workers, forget to scout with observer. I am reduced to a blubbering idiot, incapable of even the simplest actions.
What I need is a solid, specific build order. I want a build order to gets to 40 supply like the above one, and then splits off into a "tree" based on what I scout. I want to know how many gateways I should build, and when. I need to know when to start Colossus, when to start upgrades (this build does that, but not many other builds), when to take my third gas, when to take my third expo. Where can I find such a build order?
You can find plenty of build orders as already mentioned in this thread. But usually once on 2 bases things aren't quite so precise. Rather, you should have a goal of what buildings you want.
e.g. in PvT, you could roughly outline your gameplan as "I will 2-gate robo expand and see what's going on with my observer. My goal on 2 bases is to have 5 gates, a forge, and colossus tech. Once I have colossus I will add my 3rd base, go up to 8 gates, twilight council, and templar archives when I'm ready."
Now you know what you're aiming for on 1, 2, and 3 bases, which removes some uncertainty.
As regards to pylons - you simply need to build more the more bases you have. On 2 bases throw down two pylons at a time instead of 1 at a time on one base (makes sense right?).
EPT
More colossus wouldn't have gone amiss either
