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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 21 2012 23:52 Honcepoi wrote:
sorry if i am wrong. But I tell you what worked against me. I am just a low Master zerg player so i could have failed myself.
If the protoss opens with 2 robos and pumps immortals, roaches become rather useless. I know its kind of a blind counter to the build but its in every case a build that counters the roach aggression very well.
If scouted zerg could pretty much go hydras or mutas to counter double robo immortal. Its hard to keep as suprise
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On March 21 2012 23:30 Supah wrote:
I posted a few pages back that got lost in the shuffle; I really think we should look into 2 Stargate play with Phoenixes, rather than getting VRs at all.
- They come out a lot faster and move much more quickly. You can snipe Queens (thereby slowing production greatly) more easily, and there is less forgiveness for a slightly out of position Queen due to the nature of Gravitron Beam.
- The bigger numbers of Phoenix are a lot more microable than the lower/slower VRs. Even the regular 1 VR flanked with a few Phoenix is rarely effective: the VR does cursory damage, and you're left with 5 Phoenix that almost always pick off a couple Queens, Drones, OLs. It's a consistent trend.
- So then the question goes to: why not turn those 5 Phoenix into 7 or 8 at the same speed as you getting 5 from one Stargate? Bigger starting investment, but it negates Spores to a certain extent: IIRC 8 Phoenixes kill a Queen in 1 lift before the lifting Phoenix gets hurt too badly. Small micro adjustment, and you'll force MULTIPLE Spores per Hatch.
- Phoenix are effectively Sentries when the counter shove happens. You're essentially locking down at least a handful of units each time, coupled with forcefields, and you can be amazingly efficient with a small group of units. The rate at which a VR becomes effective during a fight takes A LOT longer than the fight usually occurs. Yes, you can hound (Roaches) as they traverse the map, provided the VR lives during the Queen harass phase (which it seems to rarely do), and provided it's pre-placed on the path of attack rather than scouting edges of the map for OLs.
- Map control and awareness goes without saying, as does shoving OLs out of the map.
- Activity with Phoenix is strong because the Zerg counters take a little longer to get and must have decent numbers. Camp near the far Hatch when you know Infestors/Hydras are popping out, and you're guaranteed to pick off several if the Zerg is not individually microing which Hatch produces what (which I haven't seen in the midst of harass too often even at the pro level)
Short answer: Because he'll overrun you with roaches.
Long answer (because your post at least comes across as sensible):
If you listened to state of the game (62), Tyler makes a very good point about the phoenix range buff - the problem with it is not that it makes Phoenix's "too good" against mutas, but that it does not address the issue that they are still very bad against anything "NOTmutalisk". Investing even more into phoenix (2nd stargate, in this case), makes you even more vulnerable to massmassmassroach. Phoenix's are actually quite expensive, and although harassing, picking off overlords is great, your ground army just won't handle that massive flood of roaches, even with phoenix support. Also, he can just build extra expansions, and there's nothing you can do about it.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
I can't see super quick thirds fixing the problem on most maps, for me it's cutting it too close to the bone. I think the way to go is either some kind of adaptation of MC's blink build, or to get a quick Robo after FFE & use a Prism with Immortals in place of a Void Ray, using drop micro to a) kill Zerg's queens to stunt production and b) snipe any exposed tech while scouting for a Spire with the prism.
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On March 22 2012 00:38 Paincarnate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:30 Supah wrote:
I posted a few pages back that got lost in the shuffle; I really think we should look into 2 Stargate play with Phoenixes, rather than getting VRs at all.
- They come out a lot faster and move much more quickly. You can snipe Queens (thereby slowing production greatly) more easily, and there is less forgiveness for a slightly out of position Queen due to the nature of Gravitron Beam.
- The bigger numbers of Phoenix are a lot more microable than the lower/slower VRs. Even the regular 1 VR flanked with a few Phoenix is rarely effective: the VR does cursory damage, and you're left with 5 Phoenix that almost always pick off a couple Queens, Drones, OLs. It's a consistent trend.
- So then the question goes to: why not turn those 5 Phoenix into 7 or 8 at the same speed as you getting 5 from one Stargate? Bigger starting investment, but it negates Spores to a certain extent: IIRC 8 Phoenixes kill a Queen in 1 lift before the lifting Phoenix gets hurt too badly. Small micro adjustment, and you'll force MULTIPLE Spores per Hatch.
- Phoenix are effectively Sentries when the counter shove happens. You're essentially locking down at least a handful of units each time, coupled with forcefields, and you can be amazingly efficient with a small group of units. The rate at which a VR becomes effective during a fight takes A LOT longer than the fight usually occurs. Yes, you can hound (Roaches) as they traverse the map, provided the VR lives during the Queen harass phase (which it seems to rarely do), and provided it's pre-placed on the path of attack rather than scouting edges of the map for OLs.
- Map control and awareness goes without saying, as does shoving OLs out of the map.
- Activity with Phoenix is strong because the Zerg counters take a little longer to get and must have decent numbers. Camp near the far Hatch when you know Infestors/Hydras are popping out, and you're guaranteed to pick off several if the Zerg is not individually microing which Hatch produces what (which I haven't seen in the midst of harass too often even at the pro level) Short answer: Because he'll overrun you with roaches. Long answer (because your post at least comes across as sensible): If you listened to state of the game (62), Tyler makes a very good point about the phoenix range buff - the problem with it is not that it makes Phoenix's "too good" against mutas, but that it does not address the issue that they are still very bad against anything "NOTmutalisk". Investing even more into phoenix (2nd stargate, in this case), makes you even more vulnerable to massmassmassroach. Phoenix's are actually quite expensive, and although harassing, picking off overlords is great, your ground army just won't handle that massive flood of roaches, even with phoenix support. Also, he can just build extra expansions, and there's nothing you can do about it.
The goal is to disrupt production, which is why sniping Queens is paramount. No Queens, no Roach en masse. The proposed solutions so far seem to be "let the Zerg do what he wants and I'll try to deal with it" but we should still try to exploit weaknesses prior and try to shape the earlier flow to force certain counters.
Yeah, the weakness in that is a Zerg could get a 4th fairly easily (and even a 5th most likely), but that still leaves you open to take a third, and what's needed is the gas, not necessarily the abiltity to reproduce units. The way I see it, we have 2 choices: kill the Queens, or be able to defend an expansion against vastly superior numbers.
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I sort of agree that 2sg phoenix is good, but it has to move out at like 5-6 phoenix and there needs to be a few sentries at home + cannons + multiple gates ready.
I've been using it vs this style zerg and what usually happens is one of the following:
1) Zerg freaks out and doesn't know what to do so he just sits at home, makes over 9000 spores and turtles
2) Zerg says fuck it, I'm attacking. Which of course is the best response, because you have multiple sentries at home and a few extra cannons, so split the roaches, kill them.
This happens because it's before zerg reaches his max. I sort of like it.
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a thought just came into my mind - would you be able to defend against the roach stream with dts?
as in: quick third along with stargate harassment or denying third into dts if roaches move out with you controlling the air = killing all overseers, switching dts into archons in case of muta switch
or even reducing the stargate play to few phoenixes to snipe ovies and then control air and pump about 10 15 dts, then turn them into archons when you get your ball out of 3 bases
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On March 22 2012 01:07 Supah wrote:
[
The goal is to disrupt production, which is why sniping Queens is paramount. No Queens, no Roach en masse. The proposed solutions so far seem to be "let the Zerg do what he wants and I'll try to deal with it" but we should still try to exploit weaknesses prior and try to shape the earlier flow to force certain counters.
Yeah, the weakness in that is a Zerg could get a 4th fairly easily (and even a 5th most likely), but that still leaves you open to take a third, and what's needed is the gas, not necessarily the abiltity to reproduce units. The way I see it, we have 2 choices: kill the Queens, or be able to defend an expansion against vastly superior numbers.
Ok, so if the general consensus is that ffe into 4 gate robo into third might be the best solution but disrupting the zs macro is also gonna help a ton, we could actually combine both.
getting a wp as first unit out of the robo to:
a) scout and be able to decide if u can take that fast third ( or rather let it finish) and choose the correct tech path
b) to zealot bomb the queens, take out the third or whatever damage u can manage to do.
while behind that, u will be set up with the correct infrastructure to continue to macro ur sentry immortal force that you will need to keep ur third alive.
just a scrubs thought anyways.
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On March 22 2012 01:48 Friend23 wrote:
a thought just came into my mind - would you be able to defend against the roach stream with dts?
as in: quick third along with stargate harassment or denying third into dts if roaches move out with you controlling the air = killing all overseers, switching dts into archons in case of muta switch
or even reducing the stargate play to few phoenixes to snipe ovies and then control air and pump about 10 15 dts, then turn them into archons when you get your ball out of 3 bases
That doesn't sound like a particularly reliable way of dealing with it. It's easier than you think to prevent overseers from dying, especially if they bring more than one (which anyone masters+ will probably do against dts). It's hard to tech so much into dt tech when you are at constant risk of being over-run.
I think the ONE of the key things to holding this off is to harass (as simple as that sounds). Harass,not as in meager zealot drops that will only kill a few drones, but maybe very early double immortal with warp prism to snipe hatcheries/key tech while having enough sentries to hold your ramp. Eventually due to their severed production you should have enough units to go down your ramp + secure a third. Maybe this could be given a try, as it is evident that trying to defend a third base is nigh impossible against this build. Just an idea.
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Instead of the fast 3rd, why don't you consider a later 3rd when you have an army that will stomp a roach wave? I have been opening stargate and getting a fast colossus with 4 gates when I take my 3rd. I take my 3rd at 12 min, when I have a void, 3-4 phoniex, 6 sentries, 1 colossus and some stalkers. I can easily defend my 3rd. In meantime, I just hit a timing window with 2-3 colossus and blink stalkers...almost always hits before zerg has a critical mass of broodlords and/or corrupters. In the event my colossus get taken down by corrupters, I just overrun him with blink stalkers. PvZ is my best MU...I think the issue here is that the fast 3rd delays your army. So take a more moderately timed 3rd and go kill him. Mid-game push around 15 minutes is when stalker/robo tech is extremely strong.
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On March 21 2012 23:30 Supah wrote:
I posted a few pages back that got lost in the shuffle; I really think we should look into 2 Stargate play with Phoenixes, rather than getting VRs at all.
Hmm. A lot of Phoenixes might actually work great against roaches -- certainly the roaches can't outrun them, and if every lift is a kill + you have a lot of lifts, perhaps you could just eat whole Roach waves -- and it takes a big investment in some combination of Infestor/Corruptor/Muta to defeat a large Phoenix force, by which time your third has presumably kicked in and let you move on with the game. They're still worthless against Zerglings, though. You'd better have a good answer if the Zerg decides to mass ling instead of Roach.
Note: definitely get +1 air weapons if you're doing this.
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On March 22 2012 03:31 Rigorous wrote:
Instead of the fast 3rd, why don't you consider a later 3rd when you have an army that will stomp a roach wave? I have been opening stargate and getting a fast colossus with 4 gates when I take my 3rd. I take my 3rd at 12 min, when I have a void, 3-4 phoniex, 6 sentries, 1 colossus and some stalkers. I can easily defend my 3rd. In meantime, I just hit a timing window with 2-3 colossus and blink stalkers...almost always hits before zerg has a critical mass of broodlords and/or corrupters. In the event my colossus get taken down by corrupters, I just overrun him with blink stalkers. PvZ is my best MU...I think the issue here is that the fast 3rd delays your army. So take a more moderately timed 3rd and go kill him. Mid-game push around 15 minutes is when stalker/robo tech is extremely strong.
yes this is good, but the problem with 1 robo 1 stargate on 2 bases is that it's the worst possible tech to ahve to deal with mutas. It's even worse than just goign double robo, because if you're going double robo colossus, you can build pure stalker out of all your gates, but if you're going 1 robo/1 stargate you need to have quite a bit of zealots too just to not lose everything to speedlings and at that point you don't have enough phoenixes or enough stalkers to defend 3 base muta, and you're gonna be in a lot of trouble against anyone who has a spire.
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I think the biggest concern with the double stargate opener will be taking the third base against the inevitable packs of speedlings that come - and they will come once the zerg realizes what's up. However... if you have many phoenixes, it might actually be possible to keep the zerg base number low (~3). If you split them up and place 1-2 at possible zerg expansions or routes to them, it might be possible to intercept any expanding drones. Just a quick thought I've just had.
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Phoenix heavy = Roach/corrupter going - Sup?
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On March 22 2012 03:31 Rigorous wrote:
Instead of the fast 3rd, why don't you consider a later 3rd when you have an army that will stomp a roach wave? I have been opening stargate and getting a fast colossus with 4 gates when I take my 3rd. I take my 3rd at 12 min, when I have a void, 3-4 phoniex, 6 sentries, 1 colossus and some stalkers. I can easily defend my 3rd. In meantime, I just hit a timing window with 2-3 colossus and blink stalkers...almost always hits before zerg has a critical mass of broodlords and/or corrupters. In the event my colossus get taken down by corrupters, I just overrun him with blink stalkers. PvZ is my best MU...I think the issue here is that the fast 3rd delays your army. So take a more moderately timed 3rd and go kill him. Mid-game push around 15 minutes is when stalker/robo tech is extremely strong.
The zerg will have 200/200 speed roaches at 12 min. His roaches will certainly stomp your VR, 3-4 Phoenixes, 6 sentries, colossus and stalkers while you are trying to expand. Good luck trying to make it to the 15 minute mark.
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MC vs idra on daybreak for iron squid group B play today could help ya out. The faster blink with fast third is what I've been advocating.
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all i can imagine is that the Sentry could be a Key unit, but only if all ForceFields used right xD.
An other way is maybe mass blink stalker and a good micro?
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Fast third -> +2 blink by 12:00 is a good idea. I don't love the blink timing into 3rd that MC does--everyone except MC seems unable to defend their third with the build. But if instead of going for the timing, you go for a fast third off of a couple gates with maybe 4 early sentries and then pump pure stalkers cutting everything but weapons upgrades and blink tech, you might be able to hit a pretty solid supply count by 12:00.
WG units aren't the most efficient, but the WG mechanic eventually gives you a 30 second advance on your investment compared to robo or SG units. Blink stalkers also have a property where as long as they're strong enough to win a fight, they take almost no losses.
If you hit ~160 food with blink stalkers on 3 bases, Z needs infestors or hive tech to beat you, so you've more or less printed yourself a ticket to lategame. I'll bet it's possible to somewhat safely hit 120 or 130 food with +2 weapons and blink by 12:00. With positioning, sim-citying, and forcefields, I'll bet that you can delay and/or force favorable engagements long enough to hit the critical mass of stalkers (on most maps).
The key would be focusing on maxing out supply and hitting that critical mass that can't be beaten by maxed roach+ling. Trading early, even favorable trading, might hurt your cause since Z will be able to max regardless, and trading early will slow your reaching critical mass.
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On March 15 2012 15:53 kcdc wrote:
We've had a lot of people suggesting that the answer is to gateway expand instead of FFE. While we're willing to consider all ideas, please understand that everybody here played a TON of gateway expand games vs Zerg, and we all did zealot/stalker pressure before expanding if Z delayed gas. You weren't the first to discover that stalkers can kite slow zerglings, and you didn't invent trying to deny Z's third by attacking with a bunch of sentries.
We know how it's played, and almost everybody reached the same conclusion--gateway expanding puts you behind. There's a reason that you never see pros gateway expand vs Z, and that reason isn't that they haven't thought of it. They all did it for a year+ and thousands of games.
So if you want to say that gateway expanding is the answer, you need to understand that you're running against everybody else's experiences, and you have a high burden of proof to clear before your opinion is taken seriously. You need to bring replays or VODs of pro games or at least GM-level games as evidence. If you don't have that evidence, just let it go. You can keep gateway expanding, but posting that you have success with it in diamond isn't going to convince anybody to go back to an old style that they found doesn't work.
"I put my opinion in italicized words on top of the OP and that makes it RIGHT."
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On March 22 2012 12:54 Chunhyang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 15:53 kcdc wrote:
We've had a lot of people suggesting that the answer is to gateway expand instead of FFE. While we're willing to consider all ideas, please understand that everybody here played a TON of gateway expand games vs Zerg, and we all did zealot/stalker pressure before expanding if Z delayed gas. You weren't the first to discover that stalkers can kite slow zerglings, and you didn't invent trying to deny Z's third by attacking with a bunch of sentries.
We know how it's played, and almost everybody reached the same conclusion--gateway expanding puts you behind. There's a reason that you never see pros gateway expand vs Z, and that reason isn't that they haven't thought of it. They all did it for a year+ and thousands of games.
So if you want to say that gateway expanding is the answer, you need to understand that you're running against everybody else's experiences, and you have a high burden of proof to clear before your opinion is taken seriously. You need to bring replays or VODs of pro games or at least GM-level games as evidence. If you don't have that evidence, just let it go. You can keep gateway expanding, but posting that you have success with it in diamond isn't going to convince anybody to go back to an old style that they found doesn't work. "I put my opinion in italicized words on top of the OP and that makes it RIGHT."
Don't be a moron. He's saying that you need proof to claim that a Gateway expand works, since lots of people have tried proposing the idea with no evidence or proof and it's getting old.
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On March 22 2012 12:54 Chunhyang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 15:53 kcdc wrote:
We've had a lot of people suggesting that the answer is to gateway expand instead of FFE. While we're willing to consider all ideas, please understand that everybody here played a TON of gateway expand games vs Zerg, and we all did zealot/stalker pressure before expanding if Z delayed gas. You weren't the first to discover that stalkers can kite slow zerglings, and you didn't invent trying to deny Z's third by attacking with a bunch of sentries.
We know how it's played, and almost everybody reached the same conclusion--gateway expanding puts you behind. There's a reason that you never see pros gateway expand vs Z, and that reason isn't that they haven't thought of it. They all did it for a year+ and thousands of games.
So if you want to say that gateway expanding is the answer, you need to understand that you're running against everybody else's experiences, and you have a high burden of proof to clear before your opinion is taken seriously. You need to bring replays or VODs of pro games or at least GM-level games as evidence. If you don't have that evidence, just let it go. You can keep gateway expanding, but posting that you have success with it in diamond isn't going to convince anybody to go back to an old style that they found doesn't work. "I put my opinion in italicized words on top of the OP and that makes it RIGHT."
I'm fine with people bringing ideas to the table that involve gateway expanding instead of FFE, but since almost every high level player has concluded that FFE is generally superior (Cecil may be one of the last hold-outs), I think it's fair to require a higher threshold of proof for the opposing position. It's sort of like if 90% of environmental scientists say that global warming is real and a new scientist wants to enter the fray saying that the earth is not warming, he's going to need some strong evidence backing up his claim if he wants to be taken seriously.
And frankly, we had a bunch of players coming in and saying (without evidence) that Stephano's SuperRoach style breaks FFE and that gateway expanding solves the problem, and the comments were derailing the thread. I don't have a problem if you think gateway expanding is good. Just back up your claim with solid evidence.
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