I have been working on a 2-gate zealot pressure expand build that uses two waves of zealots to 1) pressure the zerg's 14/14 expo, and 2) kill or prevent a fast third. (I am a masters protoss.)
I never FFE, though I do sometimes nexus first to change things up.
If anyone would like the build order and general synopsis of the build, they can let me know. I am planning to keep working on it for about a month longer, and then I will post an enormous, detailed guide to it in the strategy section.
This strategy gets me a solid win percentage against master zergs who know it is coming before the game starts. It's how I play "standard".
It goes somewhat like this:
9 Pylon at natural, return probe to mineral line. Chronoboost until 12 Stop probe production Build two gateways on 12 resume probe production, chrono nexus 14 Pylon 2 x zealot, save chrono Pylon 2x zealot, double chrono forge 1x zealot (to hold position in wall) cannon (to prevent counterattack) Nexus **pressure with 4 zealots**-- the goal is to force either spine crawlers, or roaches. (the primary goal of this build is to force zerg to get gas to defend the zealots, earlier than they normally want to.) if they are prepared for the zealots (which will hit at about the 5:00 mark), you should pull back and hold position on their third, to prevent them from taking it.
You should get 2 gas after your nexus has completed- you will use the first 100 gas on +1 from the forge. Chrono the forge, and prepare 6-8 zealots to kill the zerg's third- which he WILL try to take, since he assumes that he is safe for awhile after he fends off the first 4 zealots.
You can transition however you want from here. I sometimes utilize a macro nexus + triple stargate phoenix/voidray with a few gates. Triple stargate + 4 gateways (for zealots) will hold 2-base roach OR 2-base hydra/ling all ins, and it WILL allow you to get a third up quickly. It also will deal with mutalisks completely effectively.
The other benefit of this build is that it is a build order win against early pool. Your first two zealots will finish about 10 seconds after the first 6 lings from a 6-pool arrive, (and you will have two pylons, so they cannot unpower the gates.)
There are a number of transitions you can do: 7-Gate/Robo +2 Blink/Warp Prism all in 2 Stargate Phoenix/Chargelot all in. (this is VERY strong within a certain timing window where the zerg has not produced more than about 17-18 hydralisks.) 3 Stargate Phoenix/Voidray + 4 gate zealots (yes, two saturated bases can sustain these production facilities) 6 Gate Voidray, +1 Ground Attack and +1 Air Attack all in 6 Gate Mothership all-in. 6 Gate Robo +1 Sentry/Stalker Immortal, all-in OR expand. (this is especially good if you forced roaches, not as good if you didn't...because it means the zerg can get faster infestors or mutas.)
I have a very high win rate with this build. Early pools autolose and I can put on very effective pressure with the zealots. I like being in control of the pace of the game, and I feel that FFE is the wrong way to play the game against zerg.
These are the pros and cons of this style: Cons: *You will be behind on tech, and thus must prepare for 2-base tech all ins. (roach, muda, hydra, doom drop, nydus) *You don't start your expansion until 5 minutes.
Pros: *Build order win against early pools (10 supply or lower pools) *Very fast 4-zealot pressure that will force at least 16 zerglings, 2 spines+ zerglings, or roaches. *because of second zealot wave, zerg is forced to spend gas earlier than he wants (you cannot do stephano style roaches against this build) if he does not make roaches, you can assume that he is going either fast mutalisk or fast infestor. *all buildings are built at the natural, increasing sim-city efficiency, and stopping busts (including baneling busts). *due to the constant pressure, you will be very aware of the tech path choice of the zerg. * you do not have to commit with the zealots- you can pull back and use them for map control. *even if the zerg counters with roaches, you can counterattack his base with the zealots, or make him chase them until enough cannons are up.
There's a great deal more information to speak of, which again I will post in the strategy thread that I am currently working on. The reason I am posting this now is for people who are struggling with PvZ, which is my best and favorite matchup. I believe that FFE is fundamentally the incorrect way to play against a passive, macro race that prefers not to be pressured.
You have some replays you could link to where you perform this build?
Yes, but they are on another computer unfortunately that I do not have access to right now. I am waiting until I have about 20 replays from this current patch (against masters opponents only) until I make the official post. I am also still tweaking the build.
I would like to say that it is not impossible for a ton of people to be wrong and think that they are right just because there is alot of them thinking the same. Now i will give you a question - Do we have sc2 down to the science as we had in bw where you could say whats REALLY a non-sense to do? Is sc2 in alot of ways a different game ? Rhetorical questions i know. I just wanna say that we cant afford to be close-minded and to some extent conservative in such "new" game. I would like to hear from cecil what he has to say
On March 22 2012 14:56 YosHGo wrote: I would like to say that it is not impossible for a ton of people to be wrong and think that they are right just because there is alot of them thinking the same. Now i will give you a question - Do we have sc2 down to the science as we had in bw where you could say whats REALLY a non-sense to do? Is sc2 in alot of ways a different game ? Rhetorical questions i know. I just wanna say that we cant afford to be close-minded and to some extent conservative in such "new" game. I would like to hear from cecil what he has to say
This is absolutely correct. Tradition is not necessarily positive OR correct. In my opinion, Forge Fast Expand is not the correct way to play against Zerg because of Zerg's macro mechanic, inject. Protoss can make units and workers at the same time without skimping on either. Zerg can make the workers first, and the units after. Therefore, if you let them do this, they will always be ahead.
The counter-argument to this is that "all of the pros do it". Yes, they all do it. My rebuttal is that this is what they are most comfortable with, but not necessarily the most ideal build to use.
You have some replays you could link to where you perform this build?
Well he pretty much copied CombatEX's PvZ build (exactly 12gate12gate14pylon etc), you can check it out in play in this vid
I would like to note that I worked on this build independently of CombatEx's and was not aware that he employs a similiar strategy. I do not watch CombatEx videos because he's an asshole- the first video of his that I watched was also the last.
I would also like to note that in my build, I usually do not take a fast third (though sometimes I do.)
I also NEVER go Colossus like he does in the video.
I watched the Iron Squid MC vs Idra games that people had been mentioning. I don't think I appreciated how overrated Idra's macro is until I watched those games. Between supply blocks. overreactions to fake pressure, and slight inefficiencies in his build, he was 50 supply behind Stephano and ChaosKeeper at 12:00. And like any half-decent Protoss, MC had no problem deflecting 150 supply roaches with his 120 supply army.
And then Idra naturally bitched about Z being underpowered. No, Idra, you just had 25 fewer roaches than you could have had at the same time.
On March 22 2012 12:43 kcdc wrote: Fast third -> +2 blink by 12:00 is a good idea. I don't love the blink timing into 3rd that MC does--everyone except MC seems unable to defend their third with the build. But if instead of going for the timing, you go for a fast third off of a couple gates with maybe 4 early sentries and then pump pure stalkers cutting everything but weapons upgrades and blink tech, you might be able to hit a pretty solid supply count by 12:00.
WG units aren't the most efficient, but the WG mechanic eventually gives you a 30 second advance on your investment compared to robo or SG units. Blink stalkers also have a property where as long as they're strong enough to win a fight, they take almost no losses.
If you hit ~160 food with blink stalkers on 3 bases, Z needs infestors or hive tech to beat you, so you've more or less printed yourself a ticket to lategame. I'll bet it's possible to somewhat safely hit 120 or 130 food with +2 weapons and blink by 12:00. With positioning, sim-citying, and forcefields, I'll bet that you can delay and/or force favorable engagements long enough to hit the critical mass of stalkers (on most maps).
The key would be focusing on maxing out supply and hitting that critical mass that can't be beaten by maxed roach+ling. Trading early, even favorable trading, might hurt your cause since Z will be able to max regardless, and trading early will slow your reaching critical mass.
On March 18 2012 12:14 VoirDire wrote: Just out of curiosity, what happens if you 4-gate vs early 3rd builds? Maybe do a pylon block (so z has to take his 3rd as his 2nd expo) into 4 gate?
I found a game!
ASUS ROG Winter 2012 - Group Stage - Stephano vs MaNa - G2
I think Mana could have won this if he walled of his natural after he moved out.
On March 22 2012 14:42 Borkbokbork wrote: I have been working on a 2-gate zealot pressure expand build that uses two waves of zealots to 1) pressure the zerg's 14/14 expo, and 2) kill or prevent a fast third. (I am a masters protoss.)
I dont like this Idea. It might work against a zerg that scout late with his first lings. But as a zerg when i scout with a drone and i would see that 2 gates going up, then I expect zealots and i would decide to go for roach ling all in because sentrys will be late and there are no cannons.
On March 22 2012 14:42 Borkbokbork wrote: I have been working on a 2-gate zealot pressure expand build that uses two waves of zealots to 1) pressure the zerg's 14/14 expo, and 2) kill or prevent a fast third. (I am a masters protoss.)
I dont like this Idea. It might work against a zerg that scout late with his first lings. But as a zerg when i scout with a drone and i would see that 2 gates going up, then I expect zealots and i would decide to go for roach ling all in because sentrys will be late and there are no cannons.
Except there will be cannons, because the first 4 zealots will scout your build.
Typical Roach-Ling all-ins hit at 7 minute and on. The first 4 zealots will arrive at 5:30 at the latest. This will disrupt your build- and I will see what you have to kill the zealots. At that point I have a minute and a half, plus travel time, to throw up cannons if need be. Which is plenty. And if you back off and take a quick third, I'll 2-base all in you, because you just made a ton of units, and are short on drones.
On March 18 2012 12:14 VoirDire wrote: Just out of curiosity, what happens if you 4-gate vs early 3rd builds? Maybe do a pylon block (so z has to take his 3rd as his 2nd expo) into 4 gate?
I found a game!
I think Mana could have won this if he walled of his natural after he moved out.
I think this may be one answer to the Stephano style. I've been testing a similar build for a few days already. Main difference is that I get expo first ( ~4'30 ), and then 4 gates. By 6'10 I warp 3 stalkers and a zealot, in addition to my first zealot/stalker/sentry. By 7' I attack Zerg's third with 12 units while chronoing probes on double nexii at home, and dropping some more tech.
This requires a heavy probe cut between 4' and 5'30, so it's semi-all-innish, you definitely have to kill the third to stay in the game. But after that you can pump up your eco, and assuming I don't mess up with my macro, I get 50 probes at 10', which is roughly at the level of a defensive 3 gate sentry expand.
I still need more experience on ladder against better players though, so I'm not saying it definitely works or is "the" solution, it's just one build with some potential that I'm studying.. and kcdc will hate it since it's a 1 gate FE :p
On March 22 2012 14:42 Borkbokbork wrote: I have been working on a 2-gate zealot pressure expand build that uses two waves of zealots to 1) pressure the zerg's 14/14 expo, and 2) kill or prevent a fast third. (I am a masters protoss.)
I never FFE, though I do sometimes nexus first to change things up.
If anyone would like the build order and general synopsis of the build, they can let me know. I am planning to keep working on it for about a month longer, and then I will post an enormous, detailed guide to it in the strategy section.
This strategy gets me a solid win percentage against master zergs who know it is coming before the game starts. It's how I play "standard".
It goes somewhat like this:
9 Pylon at natural, return probe to mineral line. Chronoboost until 12 Stop probe production Build two gateways on 12 resume probe production, chrono nexus 14 Pylon 2 x zealot, save chrono Pylon 2x zealot, double chrono forge 1x zealot (to hold position in wall) cannon (to prevent counterattack) Nexus **pressure with 4 zealots**-- the goal is to force either spine crawlers, or roaches. (the primary goal of this build is to force zerg to get gas to defend the zealots, earlier than they normally want to.) if they are prepared for the zealots (which will hit at about the 5:00 mark), you should pull back and hold position on their third, to prevent them from taking it.
You should get 2 gas after your nexus has completed- you will use the first 100 gas on +1 from the forge. Chrono the forge, and prepare 6-8 zealots to kill the zerg's third- which he WILL try to take, since he assumes that he is safe for awhile after he fends off the first 4 zealots.
You can transition however you want from here. I sometimes utilize a macro nexus + triple stargate phoenix/voidray with a few gates. Triple stargate + 4 gateways (for zealots) will hold 2-base roach OR 2-base hydra/ling all ins, and it WILL allow you to get a third up quickly. It also will deal with mutalisks completely effectively.
The other benefit of this build is that it is a build order win against early pool. Your first two zealots will finish about 10 seconds after the first 6 lings from a 6-pool arrive, (and you will have two pylons, so they cannot unpower the gates.)
There are a number of transitions you can do: 7-Gate/Robo +2 Blink/Warp Prism all in 2 Stargate Phoenix/Chargelot all in. (this is VERY strong within a certain timing window where the zerg has not produced more than about 17-18 hydralisks.) 3 Stargate Phoenix/Voidray + 4 gate zealots (yes, two saturated bases can sustain these production facilities) 6 Gate Voidray, +1 Ground Attack and +1 Air Attack all in 6 Gate Mothership all-in. 6 Gate Robo +1 Sentry/Stalker Immortal, all-in OR expand. (this is especially good if you forced roaches, not as good if you didn't...because it means the zerg can get faster infestors or mutas.)
I have a very high win rate with this build. Early pools autolose and I can put on very effective pressure with the zealots. I like being in control of the pace of the game, and I feel that FFE is the wrong way to play the game against zerg.
These are the pros and cons of this style: Cons: *You will be behind on tech, and thus must prepare for 2-base tech all ins. (roach, muda, hydra, doom drop, nydus) *You don't start your expansion until 5 minutes.
Pros: *Build order win against early pools (10 supply or lower pools) *Very fast 4-zealot pressure that will force at least 16 zerglings, 2 spines+ zerglings, or roaches. *because of second zealot wave, zerg is forced to spend gas earlier than he wants (you cannot do stephano style roaches against this build) if he does not make roaches, you can assume that he is going either fast mutalisk or fast infestor. *all buildings are built at the natural, increasing sim-city efficiency, and stopping busts (including baneling busts). *due to the constant pressure, you will be very aware of the tech path choice of the zerg. * you do not have to commit with the zealots- you can pull back and use them for map control. *even if the zerg counters with roaches, you can counterattack his base with the zealots, or make him chase them until enough cannons are up.
There's a great deal more information to speak of, which again I will post in the strategy thread that I am currently working on. The reason I am posting this now is for people who are struggling with PvZ, which is my best and favorite matchup. I believe that FFE is fundamentally the incorrect way to play against a passive, macro race that prefers not to be pressured.
PM me for more information!
I do something similar against z: 11, 1 cb probes 12 14gate 5 zealots, cb first 3 2gas then core after starting 5th zealot expand+forge when you have money or if he's 1base, retreat zealots cb 2 stalkers out and repush, then expo. 3rd gate+cannon
Ideal defense is pure ling+a queen, if he overdefends, loses/cancels hatch, early pools, or makes gas before hatch you autowin with +2 blink 7gate. If he defends perfectly you should take 3rd instead of allin, but do a +1 push against his third as you take yours. In any case you've delayed droning till after your own expo is done. If you see a spine finish, you can get nex immediately, regardless of whether you have core or gas yet. a somewhat sloppy game by me against high master z: http://drop.sc/140029
On March 22 2012 14:42 Borkbokbork wrote: I have been working on a 2-gate zealot pressure expand build that uses two waves of zealots to 1) pressure the zerg's 14/14 expo, and 2) kill or prevent a fast third. (I am a masters protoss.)
I never FFE, though I do sometimes nexus first to change things up.
If anyone would like the build order and general synopsis of the build, they can let me know. I am planning to keep working on it for about a month longer, and then I will post an enormous, detailed guide to it in the strategy section.
This strategy gets me a solid win percentage against master zergs who know it is coming before the game starts. It's how I play "standard".
It goes somewhat like this:
9 Pylon at natural, return probe to mineral line. Chronoboost until 12 Stop probe production Build two gateways on 12 resume probe production, chrono nexus 14 Pylon 2 x zealot, save chrono Pylon 2x zealot, double chrono forge 1x zealot (to hold position in wall) cannon (to prevent counterattack) Nexus **pressure with 4 zealots**-- the goal is to force either spine crawlers, or roaches. (the primary goal of this build is to force zerg to get gas to defend the zealots, earlier than they normally want to.) if they are prepared for the zealots (which will hit at about the 5:00 mark), you should pull back and hold position on their third, to prevent them from taking it.
You should get 2 gas after your nexus has completed- you will use the first 100 gas on +1 from the forge. Chrono the forge, and prepare 6-8 zealots to kill the zerg's third- which he WILL try to take, since he assumes that he is safe for awhile after he fends off the first 4 zealots.
You can transition however you want from here. I sometimes utilize a macro nexus + triple stargate phoenix/voidray with a few gates. Triple stargate + 4 gateways (for zealots) will hold 2-base roach OR 2-base hydra/ling all ins, and it WILL allow you to get a third up quickly. It also will deal with mutalisks completely effectively.
The other benefit of this build is that it is a build order win against early pool. Your first two zealots will finish about 10 seconds after the first 6 lings from a 6-pool arrive, (and you will have two pylons, so they cannot unpower the gates.)
There are a number of transitions you can do: 7-Gate/Robo +2 Blink/Warp Prism all in 2 Stargate Phoenix/Chargelot all in. (this is VERY strong within a certain timing window where the zerg has not produced more than about 17-18 hydralisks.) 3 Stargate Phoenix/Voidray + 4 gate zealots (yes, two saturated bases can sustain these production facilities) 6 Gate Voidray, +1 Ground Attack and +1 Air Attack all in 6 Gate Mothership all-in. 6 Gate Robo +1 Sentry/Stalker Immortal, all-in OR expand. (this is especially good if you forced roaches, not as good if you didn't...because it means the zerg can get faster infestors or mutas.)
I have a very high win rate with this build. Early pools autolose and I can put on very effective pressure with the zealots. I like being in control of the pace of the game, and I feel that FFE is the wrong way to play the game against zerg.
These are the pros and cons of this style: Cons: *You will be behind on tech, and thus must prepare for 2-base tech all ins. (roach, muda, hydra, doom drop, nydus) *You don't start your expansion until 5 minutes.
Pros: *Build order win against early pools (10 supply or lower pools) *Very fast 4-zealot pressure that will force at least 16 zerglings, 2 spines+ zerglings, or roaches. *because of second zealot wave, zerg is forced to spend gas earlier than he wants (you cannot do stephano style roaches against this build) if he does not make roaches, you can assume that he is going either fast mutalisk or fast infestor. *all buildings are built at the natural, increasing sim-city efficiency, and stopping busts (including baneling busts). *due to the constant pressure, you will be very aware of the tech path choice of the zerg. * you do not have to commit with the zealots- you can pull back and use them for map control. *even if the zerg counters with roaches, you can counterattack his base with the zealots, or make him chase them until enough cannons are up.
There's a great deal more information to speak of, which again I will post in the strategy thread that I am currently working on. The reason I am posting this now is for people who are struggling with PvZ, which is my best and favorite matchup. I believe that FFE is fundamentally the incorrect way to play against a passive, macro race that prefers not to be pressured.
PM me for more information!
I do something similar against z: 11, 1 cb probes 12 14gate 5 zealots, cb first 3 2gas then core after starting 5th zealot expand+forge when you have money or if he's 1base, retreat zealots cb 2 stalkers out and repush, then expo. 3rd gate+cannon
Ideal defense is pure ling+a queen, if he overdefends, loses/cancels hatch, early pools, or makes gas before hatch you autowin with +2 blink 7gate. If he defends perfectly you should take 3rd instead of allin, but do a +1 push against his third as you take yours. In any case you've delayed droning till after your own expo is done. If you see a spine finish, you can get nex immediately, regardless of whether you have core or gas yet. a somewhat sloppy game by me against high master z: http://drop.sc/140029
I'll check out the replay, thanks for posting it. We should talk about the build and ways to make it more efficient, because I'm convinced that it is better than forge fast expand.
Can we get some more GM replays vs Zergs that do, essentially, max roaches aiming to destroy thirds and whatever army you happen to have at an impossibly early time?
With Protoss players doing a 4gate robo, a fast-third mass blinkstalker approach, other ideas in that. I mean, fall flat on your face afterwards but survive. Watch the replay and see that he took no substantial risk (9min warren, all drones until 3base max) to get there? I see a couple scattered throughout here, but a dearth of attempts to really smack the strategy down and succeed/fail. (I admit that perhaps if you really get close to scary 'Better not try this,' he'll angle for hive tech and you'll never real know).
On March 22 2012 14:56 YosHGo wrote: I would like to say that it is not impossible for a ton of people to be wrong and think that they are right just because there is alot of them thinking the same. Now i will give you a question - Do we have sc2 down to the science as we had in bw where you could say whats REALLY a non-sense to do? Is sc2 in alot of ways a different game ? Rhetorical questions i know. I just wanna say that we cant afford to be close-minded and to some extent conservative in such "new" game. I would like to hear from cecil what he has to say
This is absolutely correct. Tradition is not necessarily positive OR correct. In my opinion, Forge Fast Expand is not the correct way to play against Zerg because of Zerg's macro mechanic, inject. Protoss can make units and workers at the same time without skimping on either. Zerg can make the workers first, and the units after. Therefore, if you let them do this, they will always be ahead.
The counter-argument to this is that "all of the pros do it". Yes, they all do it. My rebuttal is that this is what they are most comfortable with, but not necessarily the most ideal build to use.
This is idiotic. There are many reasons FFE is considered so good and simply making a simple statement that it doesn't work well with the macro mechanics while ignoring tons of stuff is silly. FFE is fastest way to get a second nexus by far so you're also doubling up on your own macro mechanic really fast. In fact protoss can often hit 40 probes at the same time as zerg does. The real macro disadvantage protoss has lies more in it's difficulty to take a third then worker count. FFE can in many ways also provide stronger pressure then non-FFE because you can greedily tech to something behind your wall. For example a FFE into stargate gets air faster then a 1 gate FE into stargate does. This is because FFE can drop tech right after cyber finishes while other builds have to get some gas units to secure the expansion first. Considering 1 base pressure is terrible in PvZ now FFE is basically fastest for many forms of pressure. Maybe Gate-nexus-core builds or some other rarely seen variations could be faster but I don't see them working.
Just because zerg focusses either economy or units while protoss can do both doesn't automatically mean you need to be aggresive or shouldn't play FFE, it's a silly line of thought.
On March 22 2012 14:56 YosHGo wrote: I would like to say that it is not impossible for a ton of people to be wrong and think that they are right just because there is alot of them thinking the same. Now i will give you a question - Do we have sc2 down to the science as we had in bw where you could say whats REALLY a non-sense to do? Is sc2 in alot of ways a different game ? Rhetorical questions i know. I just wanna say that we cant afford to be close-minded and to some extent conservative in such "new" game. I would like to hear from cecil what he has to say
This is absolutely correct. Tradition is not necessarily positive OR correct. In my opinion, Forge Fast Expand is not the correct way to play against Zerg because of Zerg's macro mechanic, inject. Protoss can make units and workers at the same time without skimping on either. Zerg can make the workers first, and the units after. Therefore, if you let them do this, they will always be ahead.
The counter-argument to this is that "all of the pros do it". Yes, they all do it. My rebuttal is that this is what they are most comfortable with, but not necessarily the most ideal build to use.
This is idiotic. There are many reasons FFE is considered so good and simply making a simple statement that it doesn't work well with the macro mechanics while ignoring tons of stuff is silly. FFE is fastest way to get a second nexus by far so you're also doubling up on your own macro mechanic really fast. In fact protoss can often hit 40 probes at the same time as zerg does. The real macro disadvantage protoss has lies more in it's difficulty to take a third then worker count. FFE can in many ways also provide stronger pressure then non-FFE because you can greedily tech to something behind your wall. For example a FFE into stargate gets air faster then a 1 gate FE into stargate does. This is because FFE can drop tech right after cyber finishes while other builds have to get some gas units to secure the expansion first. Considering 1 base pressure is terrible in PvZ now FFE is basically fastest for many forms of pressure. Maybe Gate-nexus-core builds or some other rarely seen variations could be faster but I don't see them working.
Just because zerg focusses either economy or units while protoss can do both doesn't automatically mean you need to be aggresive or shouldn't play FFE, it's a silly line of thought.
I respect your opinion, but this is all relative. Yes, FFE is the fastest way to get a second nexus- but at what cost? Allowing the Zerg to get a quick third? Allowing the Zerg to get a quick third is what causes Protoss to have difficulty taking a third themselves...- something you yourself noted. This is what results in the prevalence of 2-base all-in builds, and the seemingly "coinflip" nature of the matchup at this point in time. The zerg gets three bases, and then tries as hard as he can to scout which all-in is coming. If he scouts it, he wins- most of the time.
You can greedily tech behind a FFE, but then a zerg can greedily macro behind it as well. Again, it's all relative. A FFE into stargate gets air faster, but also puts on much less pressure or pseudo-pressure than a 1 gate FE. You're thinking about this in a far too one-dimensional manner- you're considering only the limitations or benefits for the Protoss, and not for the Zerg.
You are right, however, that the weakness of this build is late tech. In my opinion, that is made up for by the amount of pressure that it puts out. FFE also greatly relies on the zerg not scouting the type of pressure you are applying. This build does not- it's fine by me if the zerg knows how any zealots I'm making- and even if he rushes tech- I WILL be aware of it based on the scouting info derived from the zealots.
On March 15 2012 16:35 kcdc wrote: Seriously guys, I know how I could have executed better. But I was down 90 supply and 2 bases. Had I played better, I could have been down 70 supply and 2 bases. I wasn't going to win.
Im not looking to discuss my play in that game. I think beating maxed roaches at 12 min is going to take big strategic shifts--not refining an immortal all in. Give me your big ideas.
Chrono Boost Immortals......and don't all in.
Use force field.
Stop overextending and losing precious Immortals/Sentries for little to no damage when you can just pull back and force units from Zerg...and keep working on your deathball
This is killing NA Protoss because we're awful at macro, not because it's some "unbeatable build." Shift in the meta game is acutally going to require us to build stuff. Sucks I know
On March 22 2012 14:42 Borkbokbork wrote: I have been working on a 2-gate zealot pressure expand build that uses two waves of zealots to 1) pressure the zerg's 14/14 expo, and 2) kill or prevent a fast third. (I am a masters protoss.)
I never FFE, though I do sometimes nexus first to change things up.
If anyone would like the build order and general synopsis of the build, they can let me know. I am planning to keep working on it for about a month longer, and then I will post an enormous, detailed guide to it in the strategy section.
This strategy gets me a solid win percentage against master zergs who know it is coming before the game starts. It's how I play "standard".
It goes somewhat like this:
9 Pylon at natural, return probe to mineral line. Chronoboost until 12 Stop probe production Build two gateways on 12 resume probe production, chrono nexus 14 Pylon 2 x zealot, save chrono Pylon 2x zealot, double chrono forge 1x zealot (to hold position in wall) cannon (to prevent counterattack) Nexus **pressure with 4 zealots**-- the goal is to force either spine crawlers, or roaches. (the primary goal of this build is to force zerg to get gas to defend the zealots, earlier than they normally want to.) if they are prepared for the zealots (which will hit at about the 5:00 mark), you should pull back and hold position on their third, to prevent them from taking it.
You should get 2 gas after your nexus has completed- you will use the first 100 gas on +1 from the forge. Chrono the forge, and prepare 6-8 zealots to kill the zerg's third- which he WILL try to take, since he assumes that he is safe for awhile after he fends off the first 4 zealots.
You can transition however you want from here. I sometimes utilize a macro nexus + triple stargate phoenix/voidray with a few gates. Triple stargate + 4 gateways (for zealots) will hold 2-base roach OR 2-base hydra/ling all ins, and it WILL allow you to get a third up quickly. It also will deal with mutalisks completely effectively.
The other benefit of this build is that it is a build order win against early pool. Your first two zealots will finish about 10 seconds after the first 6 lings from a 6-pool arrive, (and you will have two pylons, so they cannot unpower the gates.)
There are a number of transitions you can do: 7-Gate/Robo +2 Blink/Warp Prism all in 2 Stargate Phoenix/Chargelot all in. (this is VERY strong within a certain timing window where the zerg has not produced more than about 17-18 hydralisks.) 3 Stargate Phoenix/Voidray + 4 gate zealots (yes, two saturated bases can sustain these production facilities) 6 Gate Voidray, +1 Ground Attack and +1 Air Attack all in 6 Gate Mothership all-in. 6 Gate Robo +1 Sentry/Stalker Immortal, all-in OR expand. (this is especially good if you forced roaches, not as good if you didn't...because it means the zerg can get faster infestors or mutas.)
I have a very high win rate with this build. Early pools autolose and I can put on very effective pressure with the zealots. I like being in control of the pace of the game, and I feel that FFE is the wrong way to play the game against zerg.
These are the pros and cons of this style: Cons: *You will be behind on tech, and thus must prepare for 2-base tech all ins. (roach, muda, hydra, doom drop, nydus) *You don't start your expansion until 5 minutes.
Pros: *Build order win against early pools (10 supply or lower pools) *Very fast 4-zealot pressure that will force at least 16 zerglings, 2 spines+ zerglings, or roaches. *because of second zealot wave, zerg is forced to spend gas earlier than he wants (you cannot do stephano style roaches against this build) if he does not make roaches, you can assume that he is going either fast mutalisk or fast infestor. *all buildings are built at the natural, increasing sim-city efficiency, and stopping busts (including baneling busts). *due to the constant pressure, you will be very aware of the tech path choice of the zerg. * you do not have to commit with the zealots- you can pull back and use them for map control. *even if the zerg counters with roaches, you can counterattack his base with the zealots, or make him chase them until enough cannons are up.
There's a great deal more information to speak of, which again I will post in the strategy thread that I am currently working on. The reason I am posting this now is for people who are struggling with PvZ, which is my best and favorite matchup. I believe that FFE is fundamentally the incorrect way to play against a passive, macro race that prefers not to be pressured.
PM me for more information!
Forgive me for being skeptical, but it seems like you cut too much econ for a timing that should basically do no economic damage to a zerg, besides granting them map control through the lings you force.
At 5 minutes you have: 4 zealots, a nexus, a forge, 2 gates and a cannon. At 5 minutes of a FFE, one has a nexus, gate, forge, cannon, cybercore and 2 gases. At 5 minutes a macro zerg responding to a ffe has 3 hatches, 2-4 lings, a pool and at least 1 queen. Any zerg who scouts the double gate will not take the third, which is basically two spine crawlers and a drone, coupled with a round of lings, which is more than enough to kill what you have. You don't need 16 lings to beat 4 zealots when you have 2 spines and 2 queens.
This is not to mention that you basically have no probes since you implemented a v early probe cut and then spend all your chrono on gates. A FFE implements a probe cut to get the nexus, forge and cannon up. You have a lower probe count and will again have to cut probes to hit the 5 minute cannon timing. They can leave a spotting ling outside your base, and just run right by you when you move out. Given your low probe count, you had best move back. If they open speed first, a runby will kill you.
Why would your opponent opts for roaches against you ? Roaches 5 minutes into the game hurt the zerg enormously and are only used when all inning. Lings with spines and queens can deal with 4 zealots.
You have no economy for any of the follow ups you mention, not considering the fact that all of them are tech heavy and all your tech is v delayed. Not sure how a gate at the natural is safe vs an early pool, the distance from the mineral line coupled with the naked pylon will either lose you the gate or waste a lot of mining time.
The build Titan uses is similar in spirit to this one, but much, much safer, well thought out and doesnt have probe cuts. He basically opens with a gate in his main, and queues a zealot. Once hes scouted a standard opener, he goes nexus forge cannon cybercore at the natural, using the zealot and a pylon to wall in. The brilliance of this is that it places the nexus at the exact time an ffe with a pylon block would, and has the exact infrastructure up after the nexus. At the same time, he can pressure with 2-3 zealots and be safe against early pools. There is no probe cut, the pressure achieves basically the same thing any pressure at that time could, and leaves him at least on par with the zerg. It is not however, a gate expand, since the timings of the nexus and cybercore are exactly the same as in the FFE.
Another build with a similar goal is Kiwikaki's gasless FFE, which opts for double gates and chronoed zealots to hit a 7 minute timing at the zergs third. This build will induce a fast third from the zerg, and keeps up in econ while sacrificing some tech.
EPT
